quote:

I can't tell you how sorry I am to hear that you have had to go through this, and I am truly grieving with you in regard to the pain that a statement like this can cause. I just want you to know that I agree with you 100% that statements like this are out of place.

quote:

ORIGINAL: hnt
Notice she never mentioned nor went anywhere NEAR the coming on to strangers, being drunk, etc. You are one that assumed someone that wears the shirt does this, and the poster never placed any such assumptions into place.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DuckTalk

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qtman
Intended or not I am afraid what we are doing here is reinforcing that thought process. Even if I thought the female was at fault or brought it on herself I would never tell her so.

I understand your compassion here, but if Hugh Heffner has a party at the Playboy mansion & one of the bunnies is touched in a physically aggressive manner & screams "ASSAULT", then you would honestly not tell her that she is partly to blame? I mean, you yourself told me earlier on that you have a way of "hurting feelings" when or if a woman is seductively coming onto you, but you refrain from that honesty when it is another man who does not have your strength?

I support the fact that, IF a female seduces a man, then for her to pull out at her own convenience is playing dangerously with human nature & she is at the very least, partially at fault for provoking the consequence of her actions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qtman
What I had a hard time understanding, and I think many males have the same problem is most people do not understand this shared blame concept. Blame is looked at as either/or. You are to blame or you are not to blame.

This is likely because when we think we may be at fault, we tend to justify ourselves & point fingers instead of seriously looking at the picture in an objective manner. This is hard, if not entirely impossible for some, but that is why we have a judicial system, so someone can look at the ENTIRE picture of a crime in an unbiased manner & decide the guilt & punishment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qtman
Look at the poll and post in the WO folder. Every one of those ladies who admitted to having been assaulted have and some still do deal with the "It was my fault" syndrom.

Yes & they need to get over it & let the courts decide. That is, if we can find a courtroom with a judge & jury that is not biased or purchased for their own beliefs. If they do not want to "relive" the pain & agony of bringing it to trial, then they can stay in their comfort zone of confusion.


Rest well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil

quote:

ORIGINAL: hnt
Notice she never mentioned nor went anywhere NEAR the coming on to strangers, being drunk, etc. You are one that assumed someone that wears the shirt does this, and the poster never placed any such assumptions into place.

hnt - unfortunately some people seemed unwilling to consent to the fact that it was a possibility that in a few cases a woman's actions could put her in a place where this horrific assault could take place. i was pointing out a case, yes extreme, but it's what was reported to me by a female. i just posed a situation. it seems some people are willing to think of a broad picture covering many cases while some are laser focused on one example. this whole thread is filled with people making assumptions to expand their case btw.

quote:

ORIGINAL: doinkdom

I left this thread because of going to extremes instead of staying with the average person topic. The whole extreme of girls gone wild is not the real topic here and I think most people "get" that.

I came back thinking that it was back on track in discussing the topic at hand for regular "you and me" people and I see that it has gotten even more extreme.

Lord have mercy...on all of us.

If you're a women who has never been sexually assaulted, then you definitely have something to thank God for this Thanksgiving. And may our Lord give you a heightened sense of compassion for your sisters who have not been in your position.

If you have been sexually assaulted...let your sisters surround you with love and support and let them grieve with you over what was taken from you. God truly is your hope and He will give you a safe dwelling place among His people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qtman
I don't think anyone has said that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qtman
I don't think anyone has said that.

i wonder why it took over 400 posts to seem to find a post mentioning clothes that almost everyone seems to agree with?

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:

ORIGINAL: DuckTalk

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qtman
Intended or not I am afraid what we are doing here is reinforcing that thought process. Even if I thought the female was at fault or brought it on herself I would never tell her so.

I understand your compassion here, but if Hugh Heffner has a party at the Playboy mansion & one of the bunnies is touched in a physically aggressive manner & screams "ASSAULT", then you would honestly not tell her that she is partly to blame? I mean, you yourself told me earlier on that you have a way of "hurting feelings" when or if a woman is seductively coming onto you, but you refrain from that honesty when it is another man who does not have your strength?

I support the fact that, IF a female seduces a man, then for her to pull out at her own convenience is playing dangerously with human nature & she is at the very least, partially at fault for provoking the consequence of her actions.

I tend to agree with Qtman on this one, the time to address the issue of blame is before the event ever happens, when doing so may help to prevent the tragedy (like here on this thread). If a woman has already been raped, she will likely be struggling with guilt issues (many for things in which she shares NO guilt). After a woman has been raped is not the time to lecture her about what part of the blame she shared. It would be no different than how you would deal with a teenager who is learning to drive i.e. we warn them about the dangers of speeding, but not after they have been involved in a crash in which their friends died, even if the cause of the crash was speeding.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings

I want to clarify my agreement with Benelchi.


I am not saying that a women or a man ever deserves to be sexually assaulted in any manner; quite the opposite. No one ever deserves to be sexually assaulted for any reason . . . but then, I've said that in this thread a few times already.


However, what we need to be doing is teaching people (girls, boys, women, men) what are acceptable and unacceptable forms of dress, what are acceptable and unacceptable forms of behavior, etc.

Also, to blame people who have already been sexually assaulted, in any manner, is also not acceptable; it is, in fact, quite inappropriate behavior.

quote:

ORIGINAL: doinkdom

I love all of you and it's very painful for me to think that any of you has endured as much, and in many cases more than I did in the past. I know my own story and I know how it affected me, but to think that any of you were . . .

well, let's just say that I would stand beside any of you, any time...for as long as it takes for you to be restored in total and complete 100% worship of the only living God.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon

I don't know if that makes any sense to you or anyone else but I sure wish someone would start a thread about the things we should teach our sons and daughters before anything happens rather than mixing the 2 here. I think there'd be a ton less confusion and misunderstanding.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qtman

Bless your heart. The hurrider you go the behinder you get.

quote:

ORIGINAL: elastic

a willingness to have sex with strange men does not equal a willingness to have sex with every strange man.

she may be acting unwise, she may be dressed in a manner that is unwise, she may know better and she may not, but as long as she says NO and the guy continues to force her, that is rape and she does not bear any of the responsibility of that.

the guy who cannot take "no" for an answer is the one to place the blame on. He is the one taking what isn't his to take, he's the one who sees someone flirting and thinks "wow, she's really love it if i punched her in the face and forced her to have sex with me"


i also admit that there are probably women who do have sex with men, with equal consent and later regret it and call it rape, this is unfortunate, but i'm not talking about those women. i am talking about the woman who has suddenly found herself in a situation in which she has zero control. she probably thought she had control while she was flirting and drinking and cruising, but then she is raped and it's out of her control

quote:


Benelchi, if this thread were talking about "before it ever happens", you and I would be on the exact same page about everything.

It is because it is about after the fact that we are not.

I don't know if that makes any sense to you or anyone else but I sure wish someone would start a thread about the things we should teach our sons and daughters before anything happens rather than mixing the 2 here. I think there'd be a ton less confusion and misunderstanding.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DuckTalk

Okay. To address those of you who feel that I have been offensive, I am sorry that this has offended you. Offensive behavior is like that of "provocative" behavior. It is in the eye of the beholder. In this case, it is in the mind of the perceiver. I do sincerely apologize though, as I would NEVER intentionally hurt anyone. If in my own personal use of comments like "get over it", this offended, again I reiterate, I am truly sorry.

However,

Phrases are cultural, therefor what offends one may not offend another. For example: I, too, yes ME, as in I, ducktalk, have in fact been molested, abused, raped, treated like I was nothing but a sexual servant, talked down to, and convinced that it was my fault. I read the thread in WO & conclude that, according to many of the responses, it is in fact THE BEST HEALING salve to talk about it, to bring it to surface, to DEAL with it & not remain in the "comfort zone of confusion" by hiding it or blaming one's self for the assault. I maintain that "to get over" the self-blame, faulting, accusing one's self for an assault DOES need to be exercised.

I will not quote as everyone has the clearance to read the posts in WO about these cases, you will see that in , many, MANY posts that the women feel that it needs to be brought out. If they want to stop shy of pressing charges, fine...then I will quote one (unnamed poster) who said, "Something that we do have to remember in not reporting things like that is most likely when they are finished bothering you, or doing whatever they want with you, it won't end, they will just find someone else".

It is an ENTIRELY different case if we are talking in a retrospective account. Then no, of course we would not take it to court, anymore than we would accuse a neighbor of stealing tools from our home 10 years after the fact. Yet, to heal & realize our own self-worth, we need to share our pain. I see where several women did so in the WO thread while some chose to not go there.

I will add that "God forgives, God forgets". WE forgive, but we sometimes do our best to not forget. Sometimes we cling to our pain desperately by keeping it entirely to ourselves, never sharing it with those who can learn from it & not letting go of it. If God asks us to be like Him, then we should share our pain in an effort to edify others. Jesus sure did!

So, I close by saying (or better clarify context) that "get over it" was subsequent and directly meaning "get over the self-loathing, the blaming of self" and "move on" to understanding that these things happen regardless.

Hebrews 13:16_And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings

I want to clarify my agreement with Benelchi.


I am not saying that a women or a man ever deserves to be sexually assaulted in any manner; quite the opposite. No one ever deserves to be sexually assaulted for any reason . . . but then, I've said that in this thread a few times already.


However, what we need to be doing is teaching people (girls, boys, women, men) what are acceptable and unacceptable forms of dress, what are acceptable and unacceptable forms of behavior, etc.

Also, to blame people who have already been sexually assaulted, in any manner, is also not acceptable; it is, in fact, quite inappropriate behavior.

Sometimes when I clarify something, I end up complicating it even more.

To clarify my above clarification,

I was not trying to distance myself from appearing to be agreeing with Benelchi.

I was, in fact, simply trying to clarify some afterthoughts I had (that had nothing to do with anyone's posts, except for mine). I used Benelchi's name simply as a way of referencing which one of my own posts I want to expound on . . . . but in the process, I think I goofed things up a bit.



Now, I'm sure that this particular post is probably going to be just as confusing, so maybe I should just stop while I'm not too far behind.

quote:

ORIGINAL: elastic

i will concede on this point: choice of clothing CAN be a factor.

i will also say that there are a bajillion other things that can also be a factor,

her hair color
the length of her fingernails
the car she drives
her height
her teeth
her eyes
her hair
her habits
the fact that she is a woman....all of these things can be a factor.

but the fact remains that no matter what a woman is wearing, she does not deserve to be raped. what some of you guys are saying, in effect, is "well, she was wearing a mini skirt, so she was asking for it". that is just not true.

in the scenario above where the girl is wearing a mini skirt AND getting drunk AND flirting with everything that walks by, AND basically walking around a den of dogs while wearing pork chop pants....but EVEN THEN, her NO is NO. being flirty does not equal the desire to be raped. being drunk does not equal the desire to be raped. dressing in a tube top and a mini skirt does not equal the desire to be raped. all of these things combined do not equal that desire.

now, i do realize that someone who is in a bar, dressed like a street walker, getting insanely drunk and flirting with all manner of men might be looking for sex HOWEVER, SHE IS STILL THE OWNER OF HER BODY and SHE ALONE gets the make the decision of who she wants to give her body to. If she wants to give it to some unknown stranger and they are both consenting, then so be it. If an unknown stranger sees her flirting with other men and decides that he wants her for whatever reason, as long as she is resisting flirting with that stranger and telling him that she is not interested in him, he does not have the right to force sex upon her.

a willingness to have sex with strange men does not equal a willingness to have sex with every strange man.

she may be acting unwise, she may be dressed in a manner that is unwise, she may know better and she may not, but as long as she says NO and the guy continues to force her, that is rape and she does not bear any of the responsibility of that.

the guy who cannot take "no" for an answer is the one to place the blame on. He is the one taking what isn't his to take, he's the one who sees someone flirting and thinks "wow, she's really love it if i punched her in the face and forced her to have sex with me"


i also admit that there are probably women who do have sex with men, with equal consent and later regret it and call it rape, this is unfortunate, but i'm not talking about those women. i am talking about the woman who has suddenly found herself in a situation in which she has zero control. she probably thought she had control while she was flirting and drinking and cruising, but then she is raped and it's out of her control