RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the punishment be
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/18/2008 10:53:06 AM
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P31W
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quote:
That is how your experiences have taught you to see the matter.
It's not experience that tells me that the unborn are murdered though abortion. It's God's word. He creates human life and he said in his word that "he" formed us in our mother's womb and created us in His Image.
< Message edited by P31W -- 11/18/2008 11:13:22 AM >
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/18/2008 11:45:04 AM
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leonfigg3
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
That is how your experiences have taught you to see the matter.
It's not experience that tells me that the unborn are murdered though abortion. It's God's word. He creates human life and he said in his word that "he" formed us in our mother's womb and created us in His Image.
If we are to continue this discussion/debate, kindly keep my words in context. If you are having trouble understanding what I am writing, and trying to say, please ask for clarification.
The quote you highlighted had nothing directly connect to with the issue of abortion. I was contsting your view that murder through abortion was the same thing as murder through neglect/abuse of a child already born.
To you there is no difference.
To me there is a difference.
Now, I could go into my life story and try to show you how I came by seeing that difference, but I do not see how it will make that much difference to our discussion.
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/18/2008 11:50:07 AM
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P31W
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I don't care about "your experience".
So you can "save it". 
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/18/2008 12:04:28 PM
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leonfigg3
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And that my friend is the problem in a "nut shell". There are "Christians" who do not care what others are going through. They only wish to dictate to people how they are to live according to what they have gone through and what they believe. That is neither Christian, nor Biblical.
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/18/2008 12:09:16 PM
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P31W
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ROFL
You don't realize that you contradict yourself in this thread.
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/18/2008 12:21:48 PM
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leonfigg3
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
ROFL
You don't realize that you contradict yourself in this thread.
I quess that is what I get for trying to carry on a conversation with someone who really doesn't wish to have a discussion.
Till we meet again.
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/18/2008 3:13:09 PM
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Roberta_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
The issue of this thread and that is on the table for discussion is the abortion issue not child abuse, or neglect. That is a separate matter.
Please define the difference.
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/18/2008 5:43:37 PM
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leonfigg3
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Roberta_
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
The issue of this thread and that is on the table for discussion is the abortion issue not child abuse, or neglect. That is a separate matter.
Please define the difference.
Thank you.
Let me begin by saying that until the last ten years or so I haven't really thought, done,or said very much about the issue of abortion. However,as God has helped me finally deal with and resolve lifelong issues I have come to be very vocal about it, to my dismay, somewhat, in these forums. All I have really known was that I knew I could never have a loved one go through it like my brother did, or throw away a chance to have a child like he did. However, I also understand why he did it, and I feel that he still hurts from that decision (he made over 30 years ago), now that he does have a child.
Now, I know, from the opening that this difference, that I see between murdering a child through abortion, and murdering a child through abuse/neglect, is not going to appear/ seem/ sound all that different. It may not even make sense to a whole lot of people because to me (I'll admit it) there is a fine line. However, I think it is a very important fine line.
Murdering a child through abortion inticates that at least one or more of the people involved did not want the child, in the first place. Why that is is open for discussion. There could be a whole host of reasons, or no reason at all. That is the bottom line in the issue, for me That is what needs to be addressed by the parties involved.
Murdering a child through abuse/neglect indicates a troubled mind. It indicates an inability by one or more parties/ extended family to adeqqately deal with the situation, or to seek badly needed help. It indicates, a clear criminal intent to harm another person.
I hope that answers the question.
< Message edited by leonfigg3 -- 11/18/2008 5:55:46 PM >
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/18/2008 5:51:28 PM
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Roberta_
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Murdering a child indicates that the child is unwanted, whether the child was conceved five minutes ago or five years ago.
One day I borrowed money, went to a clinic and had a "doctor" (for lack of a better term) murder my unborn baby. It was a planned murder, just like millions of others do every year.
The only difference between murdering an unborn person and someone who has already been born is legality.
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/18/2008 6:35:17 PM
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leonfigg3
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Roberta_
Murdering a child indicates that the child is unwanted, whether the child was conceved five minutes ago or five years ago.
One day I borrowed money, went to a clinic and had a "doctor" (for lack of a better term) murder my unborn baby. It was a planned murder, just like millions of others do every year.
The only difference between murdering an unborn person and someone who has already been born is legality.
Maybe that is all my reasoning really comes to, so you are not going to get an arguement from me.
However, you have also illustrated why experience is such an importnat aspect in understanding how each of us tend to view the issue of abortion, and why we must (IMO) keep it in mind when dealing with people dealing with the isse.
You chose, or felt you had to take that course of action.
When I starting counceling to deal with lifelong issues, I realized that even before I was born my mother didn't want me. In fact she would have aborted my younger brother and me, if she felt she had a choice. Three years later, according to a story she oftn told me. In the middle of a nervous breakdown, she tried to kill my younger brother and myself becuse she felt she could no longer live the life she felt trapped in.
I hope you can see that I come to the issue of abortion from
a totally different angle/point of view. I would like to go further into detail. but this is not about me.
< Message edited by leonfigg3 -- 11/18/2008 7:18:15 PM >
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/18/2008 6:37:59 PM
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DuckTalk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
Murdering a child through abuse/neglect indicates a troubled mind. It indicates an inability by one or more parties/ extended family to adeqqately deal with the situation, or to seek badly needed help. It indicates, a clear criminal intent to harm another person.
I hope that answers the question.
I believe that I understand you & I see the fine line that you suggest is there. Sometimes people want the babies to begin with or at least they think they do. Then when the responsibility becomes so overwhelming or it turns into more than they thought it would be, the breakdown begins. Ultimately ending in a homicide through an ongoing case of troubling occurances.
Yes, I see the difference.
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Sufferin' sassafrass. The nerve of some people, profitting from other people's miseries.
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/18/2008 10:38:18 PM
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Roberta_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
quote:
ORIGINAL: Roberta_
Murdering a child indicates that the child is unwanted, whether the child was conceved five minutes ago or five years ago.
One day I borrowed money, went to a clinic and had a "doctor" (for lack of a better term) murder my unborn baby. It was a planned murder, just like millions of others do every year.
The only difference between murdering an unborn person and someone who has already been born is legality.
Maybe that is all my reasoning really comes to, so you are not going to get an arguement from me.
However, you have also illustrated why experience is such an importnat aspect in understanding how each of us tend to view the issue of abortion, and why we must (IMO) keep it in mind when dealing with people dealing with the isse.
You chose, or felt you had to take that course of action.
When I starting counceling to deal with lifelong issues, I realized that even before I was born my mother didn't want me. In fact she would have aborted my younger brother and me, if she felt she had a choice. Three years later, according to a story she oftn told me. In the middle of a nervous breakdown, she tried to kill my younger brother and myself becuse she felt she could no longer live the life she felt trapped in.
I hope you can see that I come to the issue of abortion from
a totally different angle/point of view. I would like to go further into detail. but this is not about me.
Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's moral.
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/19/2008 8:09:32 AM
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P31W
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Maybe we need to do away with after birth child murder laws as well? Allow mothers who decide after a child is born they don't want them so they can just murder them on the spot. No questions asked.
Or maybe Christians need to look to "our creator" and our "savior" to see what He says on the matter. Not to our own limited human experience or "wisdom".
< Message edited by P31W -- 11/19/2008 8:18:28 AM >
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/19/2008 8:15:23 AM
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P31W
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quote:
I do think, though, that the women who go through the process of of having their child removed from their bodies is not a task easily done (emotionally or physically).
When I was a teenager one of my friends became pregnant. She came from a huge political family and knew it would harm her father's political goals. She went off with her boyfriend on day and had an abortion. A few years later they married and she gave birth to a child. When she was her "child" it hit her what she had done. She realized that she had murdered her first child. She ended up in a mental institution and then killed herself. What having a baby as a teenager was nothing compared to the extreme suffering her family experienced with her suicide.
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/19/2008 8:31:05 AM
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leonfigg3
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I do not believe that anyone here is seriously advocating that.
I certainly am not. What I am trying to advocate is for the church, individually or collectively, to finally come up with a way to discuss sexual issues so it can finally deal with the general public, little alone its o own member, dealing with sexual issues in a Christ like compassionate way. The church's relative silence and judgemental attitude certainly does not seem to be working out too good.
Note-what I just said should be in no way be interpreted as me just putting down one approach (the legalistic approach) to sexual issues, but a concern that the rest of the body needs to become motivated (and guided) to act as God leads them: mens groups, womens groups, youth groups, mentoring, crisis units, prayer lnes, etc.
This also could be said about the Church's relative silence and judgemental approach to mental illness (but that is another issue).
< Message edited by leonfigg3 -- 11/19/2008 8:41:52 AM >
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/19/2008 8:52:32 AM
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P31W
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This is not about "sex". It's about legalized murder. All your church bashing, talk and experience won't change that "fact".
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/19/2008 9:40:48 AM
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leonfigg3
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And where do you think the source and reasoning for "this legalized murder" is coming from and really is all about?
It is about Man's sin nature and desire to put himself first.
What avenue did Satan use to introduce sin into the world?
What was the most immediate result of Adam's disobience of God's command not to eating from the tree of good and evil-sexual awareness.
What is one of the most difficult icategory of issues the corporate body of Christ has the most trouble dealing with-sex.
What aspect/ manifestation of human experience comes closest to the degree of intimacy that God desires to have with each and every one of us? (clue-Read the Song of Solomon).
Why do women feel that they MUST have the power to choose whether or not to have an abortion-we men do not know how to dealwith sex, and women as we should
If I am "bashing" the church it is because the Bible and God is also bashing the church (read James). What Jesus said about the Pharisees can easily be said about the church as a whole today, especially in matters of sex. How do you think we really got into the situation we are in today?
The church not doing what it has been commanded to do-be salt and light in a very dark world.
The church increasingly allowing the government to do what it is suppose to be doing-addressing human needs, human moral, physical, and spiritual issues.
< Message edited by leonfigg3 -- 11/19/2008 9:54:12 AM >
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/19/2008 9:54:08 AM
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P31W
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Oh my Freud trying to justify legalized murder.
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/19/2008 10:07:43 AM
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leonfigg3
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Oh my Freud trying to justify legalized murder.
Who is trying to justify legalized murder?
If you really think I am, you better re-read my posts, If that doesn't help, please ask me for clarification and I will endeavor to TRY....TO....EXPLAIN....MYSELF.....MORE.....CLEARLY....AND.......PRECISELY.....AS......IS.......HUMANLY......POSSIBLE.
I am against abortion, however, I can understand, and empathize with someone who feel they need to make such a decision.
To me, it is the mission of Christians, either corporately or indivdually to address the perception that abortion is a logical option.
To me, it is the mission of Christians, either corporately or individually to expose people to the love of Christ as they deal with the issue.
To me, the best and most logical way of seriously changing the law, after 35+ years of failure and relying on "spokes people" to change the law, is for Christians to change the law by severely reducing, or even eliminating the persception that such laws are really necessary.
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/19/2008 10:34:20 AM
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P31W
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Proverbs 24:11-12
11 Rescue those who are unjustly sentenced to death; don't stand back and let them die. 12 Don't try to avoid responsibility by saying you didn't know about it. For God knows all hearts, and he sees you. He keeps watch over your soul, and he knows you knew! And he will judge all people according to what they have done.
Believe it or not if a Christian loves God and others with all thier heart, soul and mind they "will" obey this command. They "know" that only God can define what true love is.
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/19/2008 10:34:34 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
And that my friend is the problem in a "nut shell". There are "Christians" who do not care what others are going through. They only wish to dictate to people how they are to live according to what they have gone through and what they believe. That is neither Christian, nor Biblical.
I may be misreading your post leonfigg3, but what does "What others are going through" have do do with murdering unborn babies?
Thanks
RC
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Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: If Roe vs. Wade was Overturned what should the puni... - 11/19/2008 11:52:48 AM
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leonfigg3
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: leonfigg3
And that my friend is the problem in a "nut shell". There are "Christians" who do not care what others are going through. They only wish to dictate to people how they are to live according to what they have gone through and what they believe. That is neither Christian, nor Biblical.
I may be misreading your post leonfigg3, but what does "What others are going through" have do do with murdering unborn babies?
Thanks
RC
As I have said in previous posts about the issue of abortion, for anyone that is honestly interested in hearing and carrying on a discussion, and as I have tried to make clear, repeatedly: I do not see the abortion issue simply about the matter of murdering innocent children. I see it as a symptom, and the only way that we Christians are EVER going to make any real headway in changing the law and people's thinking is through dealing with people where they are at.
I do not believe I am special in anyway, but I think my background has given me a different way of looking at the issue than most people.
As I have stated, my mother, while my brothers and I were growoing up, never hid the fact from us that she never wanted us. She never let us forget that if she felt she had a choice she wopuld have aborted us. In fact, when she was carrying our baby brother she repeatedly tried to deliberately have a miscarriage. Our baby brother was born sickly as a result and eventually died of the damage she had done to him.
With great reluctance I am trying to say that I feel that I am/ may be speaking from the viewpoint of a child that doesn't belong here because I should have been aborted. I am speakingn from the view point of a child who has always felt responsible for the problems his family had because he was born, instead of aborted.
However, I know that eventhough my mother never wanted me, even when she was carrying me, God wanted me. God loves me in ways and reasons few if anyone else in my whiole life ever have.
At the age of five God led me to make a vows to myself that no mattter how bad things got suicide would never be an answer because God loved me and would always be there. However, just because suicide was ruled out of my life back then does not mean that I haven't struggled with depression or a death wish.
Why dodn't my mother want me, or love me? Because of the way and the environment she grew up in. An environment that caused her to get married to someone she didn't love, but only used
My younger brother, though he never seemed to be saddled with the same deep seeded feeling of responsibility that I have, knew what it was like to feell unloved and unwanted, a as he grew up. He was also enough like our mother, and grandfather (our mother's father) to know what he wanted and what he didn't want. After he and his first wife got married, so the stroy goes, he told her that if she ever got pregnant she would have to have an abortion. She got pregnant. He arranged to have her get an abortion.
In short my younger brother and I have suffered through what may be called a generational curse. A curse that has affected our views towards abortion, as well as other issues. Because of the generational curse have a child of my own was never realliy in the cards. Instead my wife and I adopted a child. My younger brother had two chances to have a child. The first one he threw away because he was not ready. Because he felt he could not love it. He has since has had another child who he dearly loves.
Though it is hard for me to talk with my brother, or sense what is really going on with him (inside) I am sure that the decision he made over 30 years ago still hurts him, or at least bothers him.
We Christians are in this world to be salt and light to our fellow humans. We are meant to minister and do be empty vessels in this dark world so that Jesus/God can restore the intimacy He desires to restore to each and every one of us that once existed in the Garden of Eden. We are meant to minister to one another more than we are to worry about what is legal or illegal.
At the same time, though, I believe that we are all part of the body of Christ, and we each serve a function. Each part , and each function is no more important than ANY other.
I am sorry for going on for as long as I did. I am trying to be as clear as I possibly can be.
I meant no offense to you rcjames if I may have said anything out of line in the beginning of my rant, but my frustration at not being understood is stated to take a toll on me so if you need any more clarification please email me. I need a break from the forums. I need to pursue other internests and needs.
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