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RE: romans 7 - 11/21/2008 8:02:54 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I think the problem here is symantics. I don't think anyone here is saying we must sin. Now, you say you are not saying the inability to sin is possible. Maybe we are arguing about what not saying rather than lookiing at what we are saying. Could it be that we are saying that even if we can avoid sin, it happens and we must be responsible to avoid it at all costs.
It seems to me that you and others are claiming that one must sin, for why else would one sin against God if they did not have to, that if all they had to do was let Christ that lives in them guide them.
I just told you the opposite, do you think I am lieing.
quote:
Why would someone jeapordize their relationship with God by choosing to sin when they did not have to?
This is a perfect case in point. You say I am saying, "one must sin". I say I am not. One of us is wrong, sinning if you will for sake of agruement. (There is no need to go into a long discussion of what constitues sin at this time.)
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: romans 7 - 11/22/2008 1:06:58 AM
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SamsonUSA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: SamsonUSA
It is true that we have the power through the Holy Spirit to reject temptation. It is not true that by having this power that we will never sin again.
You must have misread my prior posts, I never have claimed that "Sinless Perfection" (The inability to sin) was possible; only that if a Believer sins it is by thier own choice that they do so, and they could have chosen not to sin.
Thanks
RC
Thanks for setting me straight RC. After reading some of your previous posts I didn't think you'd subscribe to that theology.
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RE: romans 7 - 11/22/2008 9:37:02 AM
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tdd1975
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quote:
Unless one was OSAS (5th point Calvinist) or Calvinist, and did not believe that it mattered whether they sinned or not.
Calvinists don't teach that it doesn't matter if they sin or not.
But let me ask you this.
Why did the Lord teach us to pray like this?
(Luke 11:4) and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation."
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(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: romans 7 - 11/22/2008 2:24:16 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
I have been reading through this thread and I have read where some state...if we walk in the Spirit, we will not sin, but if we walk in the flesh, which desires the sinful nature...then my question is this.....How do we walk in the Spirit 24/7?
By being obedient to God's Word and the sayings of Christ as in;
(Luk 6:46) "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and yet don't do what I tell you?
And
(Rom 12:1,2) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
And
(1Jn 3:5,6) You know that Christ appeared in order to take away sins, and that there is no sin in him. So everyone who lives in union with Christ does not continue to sin; but whoever continues to sin has never seen him or known him.
And one to really consider is;
(Rom 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
No condemnation for those walking afrter the Spirit, but when one is walking after the flesh; Watch Out.
One is either saved or they are not, and part timers do not count.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: romans 7 - 11/22/2008 8:59:15 PM
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tdd1975
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John called two groups of people in his first epistle liars.
Those that claim to have no sin 1 John 1:8
and those who claim to know him but don't keep his commandments 1 John 2:4
I don't want to be either.
How can these two seemingly contradictory statements be true?
I believe the answer is sanctification.
(Romans 8:13) For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Living the Christian life is a life of continual mortifying the deeds of the flesh.
I think it was John Owen that said "be killing sin or sin will be killing you"
To claim sinless perfection is to deny the need of the Spirit's work for further sanctification. (and John says we make God a liar 1John 1:10)
(John 15:2) Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
(John 15:10) If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
It seems the more I abide in him (keep his commandments) the more pruning I get. (sanctification)
Just some things I was thinking about today.
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(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: romans 7 - 11/23/2008 8:58:33 AM
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drmark
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How do we walk in the Spirit 24/7? By the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit! In my doctrinal tradition (Wesleyan Holiness) we call this "entire sanctification". It is a crisis event of personal consecration followed by a lifelong process of growing in grace. The simplest verse to describe how to live the sanctified life 24/7 is Luke 9:23 - Then Jesus said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." If you would like to start a new thread on this subject, AbbyGrace, it might be better since Romans 7 is, in my opinion, all about living before entire sanctification.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: romans 7 - 11/23/2008 11:48:40 AM
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AbbyGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
How do we walk in the Spirit 24/7? By the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit! In my doctrinal tradition (Wesleyan Holiness) we call this "entire sanctification". It is a crisis event of personal consecration followed by a lifelong process of growing in grace. The simplest verse to describe how to live the sanctified life 24/7 is Luke 9:23 - Then Jesus said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." If you would like to start a new thread on this subject, AbbyGrace, it might be better since Romans 7 is, in my opinion, all about living before entire sanctification.
I ask this question, because i have had days, and moments in my life, that I knew without a doubt, that i was walking in the spirit, it was so different, almost to the point that i cant even explain it, and its a feeling and a knowing that you dont ever want to leave.....and then I have had days, where I feel like Im under attack by the devil, I feel like Im so close to slipping, and I think, Lord where are you? But I do know, that yes, its a process, its growing, and He is teaching me this....but if anyone else had verses to share, then please do.
Thank you...
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Hebrews 12:14 "Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." 
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RE: romans 7 - 11/23/2008 12:26:50 PM
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7OFUS
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quote:
(1Jn 3:5,6) You know that Christ appeared in order to take away sins, and that there is no sin in him. So everyone who lives in union with Christ does not continue to sin; but whoever continues to sin has never seen him or known him.
And one to really consider is;
(Rom 8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
No condemnation for those walking afrter the Spirit, but when one is walking after the flesh; Watch Out.
One is either saved or they are not, and part timers do not count.
I am so confused by some of these posts.
This seems to be saying that if I commit a sin then I'm not, nor have I ever been, saved. Please explain in light of Gal2:11-13. Were Peter and Barnabas not saved before this? Again you may not be saying this but that is what I'm hearing.
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RE: romans 7 - 11/23/2008 3:00:08 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 7OFUS
I am so confused by some of these posts.
This seems to be saying that if I commit a sin then I'm not, nor have I ever been, saved. Please explain in light of Gal2:11-13. Were Peter and Barnabas not saved before this? Again you may not be saying this but that is what I'm hearing.
No one is talking about 'Sinless Perfection" (the inability to sin).
But some things to consider;
(1Jn 2:1) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
The "IF" is the key to this passage, sin should be the rarity, not the norm. The Biblical approach is IF you sin, not when you sin.
In this passage Jesus rejects many who think they are saved, but are not; He seems to distinguish these "false Christians" by their working iniquity (continuing in sin)
(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
If there is not repentance (change of heart and mind about sin), and a new person at the rebirth then there is no rebirth.
(2Co 5:17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
We ae told our reasonalbe service as a Christian is;
(Rom 12:1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
(Rom 12:2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
So if that is not the driving force in a person who thinks they are Christian then they should;
(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Bottom line; With a Believer sin must be rare, and then confessed, and repented of quickly.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: romans 7 - 11/23/2008 5:17:22 PM
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7OFUS
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That is much more clear. Thanks RC, I agree.
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RE: romans 7 - 11/23/2008 5:23:34 PM
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tdd1975
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quote:
it might be better since Romans 7 is, in my opinion, all about living before entire sanctification.
Do you think Ro 7 is pre entire sanctification only or pre salvation?
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(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: romans 7 - 11/23/2008 5:34:23 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
it might be better since Romans 7 is, in my opinion, all about living before entire sanctification.
Do you think Ro 7 is pre entire sanctification only or pre salvation?
The question was probably not for me; but I think it is pre-salvation.
I base that on the premise of 8:2 where he speaks of being delivered from the law of sin and death (The law that he was discussing in chapter 7) by the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Salvation).
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: romans 7 - 11/23/2008 5:53:27 PM
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tdd1975
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quote:
The question was probably not for me; but I think it is pre-salvation.
I base that on the premise of 8:2 where he speaks of being delivered from the law of sin and death (The law that he was discussing in chapter 7) by the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Salvation).
Thanks
RC
I don't mind you answering. Most folks believe Paul is either just speaking pre salvation or as a currently saved person. I had never heard DrMark's pov saved but not entirely sanctified. (if I am reading him correctly)
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: romans 7 - 11/23/2008 6:25:14 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
I don't mind you answering. Most folks believe Paul is either just speaking pre salvation or as a currently saved person. I had never heard DrMark's pov saved but not entirely sanctified. (if I am reading him correctly)
I am sure DrMark will be back on the forum later tonight or tomorrow, and he is always good at answering questions sent his way.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: romans 7 - 11/24/2008 8:40:23 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Do you think Ro 7 is pre entire sanctification only or pre salvation?
quote:
Most folks believe Paul is either just speaking pre salvation or as a currently saved person. I had never heard DrMark's pov saved but not entirely sanctified. (if I am reading him correctly) Well, you've given two options, tdd1975. If the second option is that Romans 7 indicates a "currently saved person" then that person must be "pre entire sanctification". This is how I have heard many Holiness scholars interpret Romans 7 but there are good arguments on both sides. Here is a scholarly article from the Wesleyan perspective if you're interested:
http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyan_theology/theojrnl/16-20/16-04.htm
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: romans 7 - 11/24/2008 10:40:39 AM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
The question was probably not for me; but I think it is pre-salvation.
I base that on the premise of 8:2 where he speaks of being delivered from the law of sin and death (The law that he was discussing in chapter 7) by the law of the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Salvation).
Thanks
RC
I don't mind you answering. Most folks believe Paul is either just speaking pre salvation or as a currently saved person. I had never heard DrMark's pov saved but not entirely sanctified. (if I am reading him correctly)
That depends because when we sin we are convicted
...if were not for the cross we would succumb to the law of sin and death… or in other words …. if were not for the cross we would have no recourse in our spirit other than to feel condemnation.. And that leads to death
... It doesn’t matter if we are saved of not… all flesh go through the same things, all of us regardless…just depends on how long one wishes to stay there;
As the saying goes …misery loves company 
Ro 8:11 - Show Context
But….. if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead (bearing our sins)…. will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Now we have to look at these 2 attributes of the Father who dwells in us (1 is in Mt 10:28 and verified in John 14:23)
.....= …..But if the Spirit of Him =GOD >>>>(who has set before us the blessing and the curse)>>>> ….if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you….
Then what see depicted in Romans 8:11 is that it is not speaking of the curse or condemnation
... Because there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus
…but ....there is conviction by the Father >>>>
Therefore, He who raised Christ from the dead…(=the Father)>>> “will also” = or… in addition to>>(Mt 10:28)>>> by conviction……will give life to your mortal bodies through “His Spirit”…. who dwells “in you”.
…… It’s a simple law of God,…“both”… the Father and the Son reside in us
.... Whereby both the blessing and curse ride the same principals
John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; ..and… My Father will love him, (if not?)…and.. “We” will come to him …and… make “Our home”… with him.
According to that principal even the sinners because of the conviction of the Father have the wrath of God “abiding in them” or condemnation (John 3:18).... according to the law of sin and death
Mt 11:23 - Show Context
And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades;
“for if the mighty works”….. which were done in you (in Capernaum) ……had been done in Sodom,
…..it would have remained until this day
….According to those principals’ even sinners by the law of God in opposite of the blessing and conviction of the Father in John 14:23.... Is the wrath of God abiding “in them” also… or the curse …the condemnation according to John 3:18
4 So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And “now”…. you are “united…. "With the one".... who was raised from the dead.
As a result,
We can produce a harvest of good deeds for God...... (As opposed to those whom have the wrath of God “abiding in them”...)
It looks as if Paul is reiterating a simple law of God
Loyal Gypsy
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Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: romans 7 - 11/25/2008 10:09:54 PM
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Theo-Minor
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
I have been reading through this thread and I have read where some state...if we walk in the Spirit, we will not sin, but if we walk in the flesh, which desires the sinful nature...then my question is this.....How do we walk in the Spirit 24/7?
Love your neighbor as yourself. That is the law and the prophets. There is no commadment we have that is not summed up by that one. See Matthew 7 and Romans 13.
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: romans 7 - 11/26/2008 3:44:12 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
I have been reading through this thread and I have read where some state...if we walk in the Spirit, we will not sin, but if we walk in the flesh, which desires the sinful nature...then my question is this.....How do we walk in the Spirit 24/7?
Love your neighbor as yourself. That is the law and the prophets. There is no commadment we have that is not summed up by that one. See Matthew 7 and Romans 13.
I does not say, "That is the law and the prophets." In fact, in Matthew 7, it doesn't even say "Love your neighbor as yourself." It says, Mt 7:12 "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." If we are going to change the meaning of the commandments of Adonai based on the literal words of an adage that "sums up" the Law and the Prophets, we may as well abolish all mathematics because we have calculators. When I was younger, I asked a math teacher why we didn't use a method that I have found that got the right answers without all the rules. He told me that it is important to know how to figure these things out without the shortcuts, because one can make a mistake and the shortcuts make it difficult, if not impossible, to find that mistake. Therefore, if all one needs to know is "Love your neighbor as yourself.", why did Luke say of the Bereans, (Ac 17:11) "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." Luke seems to think it is a noble thing to examine things by comparing them to the Scriptures on a daily bases. Would this not also apply to ones own life?
I may be willing to accept, for the sake of arguments, that all one needs to do is "(l)ove your neighbor as yourself" , but the next question is do we agree on what that phrase means?
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: romans 7 - 11/27/2008 5:35:14 AM
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Theo-Minor
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
quote:
ORIGINAL: AbbyGrace
I have been reading through this thread and I have read where some state...if we walk in the Spirit, we will not sin, but if we walk in the flesh, which desires the sinful nature...then my question is this.....How do we walk in the Spirit 24/7?
Love your neighbor as yourself. That is the law and the prophets. There is no commadment we have that is not summed up by that one. See Matthew 7 and Romans 13.
I does not say, "That is the law and the prophets." In fact, in Matthew 7, it doesn't even say "Love your neighbor as yourself." It says, Mt 7:12 "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." If we are going to change the meaning of the commandments of Adonai based on the literal words of an adage that "sums up" the Law and the Prophets, we may as well abolish all mathematics because we have calculators. When I was younger, I asked a math teacher why we didn't use a method that I have found that got the right answers without all the rules. He told me that it is important to know how to figure these things out without the shortcuts, because one can make a mistake and the shortcuts make it difficult, if not impossible, to find that mistake. Therefore, if all one needs to know is "Love your neighbor as yourself.", why did Luke say of the Bereans, (Ac 17:11) "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." Luke seems to think it is a noble thing to examine things by comparing them to the Scriptures on a daily bases. Would this not also apply to ones own life?
I may be willing to accept, for the sake of arguments, that all one needs to do is "(l)ove your neighbor as yourself" , but the next question is do we agree on what that phrase means?
First of all, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is synonymous with "love your neighbor as yourself." The two mean exactly the same thing. They are merely two different ways to express the thought.
Second, Jesus didn't say that do unto others "sums up" the law and the prophets. If you check the Greek on that passage, he says that it is the law and the prophets. That "sums up" is an interpretive interpolation specific to the translation you are reading. It's not accurate.
Third, I'm not changing the meaning of God's commandments based on an addage. I'm relating scripture. We are no longer under the law. We are now bound to the spirit of it, which is that addage.
Fourth, the Bereans searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was true. It doesn't say that they searched the scriptures daily to study the law, memorize the law, learn how to live by the law, etc. The law is spiritual, the message was simple, and they received it with great eagerness ... but they wanted to verify what Paul was saying.
Fifth, the law was our schoolmaster. There comes a point when it's perfectly acceptable to use that proverbial calculator. Perhaps it's unacceptable to use it in school when learning the basics of mathematics, but once you reach a certain point, the calculator acheives the same results with a lot less headache.
In fact ... ! The calculator acheives more reliable and consistent results, acheives them faster, and can even calculate down to finite decimals. Why bother doing long division when you have a simple tool at your disposal?
By the same token, why bother with the law when we have love at our disposal? It is the biblical equivalent of the calculator in this metaphoric example. It interprets the law accurately every time, is faster at doing so, and gives us reliable results, right down to the finite details.
Now, if you question what it means to love your neighbor as yourself ... I suggest that you do read the law. Wise and educated Rabbis going all the way back to the days of Jesus have been saying the same thing. The law is all summed up by doing to others as you would have them do to you (loving your neighbor as yourself). Jesus said it, Paul said it, John said it, Peter said it. Even the sages of the day said it.
"When he went before Hillel, he said to him, 'What is hateful to you, do not to your neighbour: that is the whole Torah, while the rest is the commentary thereof; go and learn it.'" (Talmud, Shabbath 31a)
_____________________________
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: romans 7 - 11/30/2008 3:19:03 AM
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rofaith
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From: rofaith, a believer
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Some thought should be put into the idea that sin happens in our lives whether we are aware of it or not. Even after becoming a Christian. Regardless, whether we sin consciously or unconsciously is immaterial, God holds us responsible for our sin. Only the blood of Christ and the grace of God saves us from this condition by faith. As such, we have been judged already and found holy, clean and pure before a holy God because of what Christ has done for us. God does not and no longer has to "keep score" so to speak. How else could we boldly approach the throne of God for grace and mercy in time of need. We would otherwise have no right to even be there... As long as we realize our condition and see ourselves as hopeless without the atonement of Christ by faith, we are good to go with God.
Once I came to God and realized how much mercy He had given me, I hated sin... still do. Doesn't mean I don't sin, or won't sin, or can't sin.....but I do have the right attitude about it. The blood of Christ frees me from the dilemma of being conscious of my sinful nature and my inability in my own power to make good on living a holy life on my own.
Now, God is free to develop my character without the threat of condemnation over my head.... i.e. Romans 8....
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There is no other name....
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RE: romans 7 - 11/30/2008 4:30:24 AM
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Bluethread
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ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
First of all, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is synonymous with "love your neighbor as yourself." The two mean exactly the same thing. They are merely two different ways to express the thought.
I am glad to see that you see loving and doing an synonymous. If we get too literal here, a sadomasocist might interpret it improperly. So, let's look at what is intended. This message was given in a culture in which the Tanach(the law and the prophets) was applied to one's behavior. Therefore, if loving and doing are synonymous and we live in a culture that accepts the Tanach(the law and the prophets) as fair treatment, then what is being said here is that we need to be even handed in applying the Scriptural requirements to others.
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Second, Jesus didn't say that do unto others "sums up" the law and the prophets. If you check the Greek on that passage, he says that it is the law and the prophets. That "sums up" is an interpretive interpolation specific to the translation you are reading. It's not accurate.
Third, I'm not changing the meaning of God's commandments based on an addage. I'm relating scripture. We are no longer under the law. We are now bound to the spirit of it, which is that addage.
Your point is well taken. It is one of the purposes of the Tanach(the law and the prophets) to see that everyone is treated fairly. This is how I define the spirit of the law. If you define it some other way, please, present your definition.
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Fourth, the Bereans searched the scriptures daily to see if what Paul said was true. It doesn't say that they searched the scriptures daily to study the law, memorize the law, learn how to live by the law, etc. The law is spiritual, the message was simple, and they received it with great eagerness ... but they wanted to verify what Paul was saying.
If, as you say, "the law is spiritual, the message was simple and they received it with great eagerness", why was it commendable for them to "verify" it?
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Fifth, the law was our schoolmaster. There comes a point when it's perfectly acceptable to use that proverbial calculator. Perhaps it's unacceptable to use it in school when learning the basics of mathematics, but once you reach a certain point, the calculator acheives the same results with a lot less headache.
In fact ... ! The calculator acheives more reliable and consistent results, acheives them faster, and can even calculate down to finite decimals. Why bother doing long division when you have a simple tool at your disposal?
By the same token, why bother with the law when we have love at our disposal? It is the biblical equivalent of the calculator in this metaphoric example. It interprets the law accurately every time, is faster at doing so, and gives us reliable results, right down to the finite details.
If we are going to get technical here, if I am not mistake, the term "schoolmaster" is closer to chaperone, a slave designated to guard a child as they travel. HaTorah(the law) guards us as Adonai's Spirit applies it to our hearts on the way to the mark of the high calling in HaMeshiach. As Paul points out in chapter 7, it is not HaTorah(the law) which is at fault, but the fact that we take occasion to misuse it. Rather than showing our love to our Father for providing us guidance, we rebell and refuse to abide by its dictates.
Now, regarding the example, a calculator is not more accurate in fact. It is dependant on the information entered into it. Love is not the calculator. The doctrine of "the spirit of the law" is the calculator. If we are to press the analogy, love is the solution. If one accepts that whatever comes out of "the spirit of the law" without verifying the information one puts into that calculator one can not be sure one has indeed loved one's neighbor.
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Now, if you question what it means to love your neighbor as yourself ... I suggest that you do read the law. Wise and educated Rabbis going all the way back to the days of Jesus have been saying the same thing. The law is all summed up by doing to others as you would have them do to you (loving your neighbor as yourself). Jesus said it, Paul said it, John said it, Peter said it. Even the sages of the day said it.
"When he went before Hillel, he said to him, 'What is hateful to you, do not to your neighbour: that is the whole Torah, while the rest is the commentary thereof; go and learn it.'" (Talmud, Shabbath 31a)
I do not question the meaning of "love your neighbor as yourself" or even "the spirit of the law" for that matter. I agree it is and always has been at the heart of the Scriptures. That is why I can present a definition. I will accept it may not be a perfect definition. However, it is more than is provided by many who use those phrases as if they were nonsequiturs. This is what I question. If one refuses to define one's doctrine, that doctrine can not really be trusted. Also, this view that one can consider oneself sinless simply because that one believe's he has treated his neighbor fairly ignores what Yeshua(Jesus) said was the greatest commandment and relegates "the spirit of the law" to nothing more than a situational ethics. Even the pagans accept the "golden rule", yet they totally disagree with what Paul says in the letter to the romans. Of coarse, they have no idea what the "golden rule" means, and that is precisely my point.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/30/2008 4:47:37 AM >
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: romans 7 - 11/30/2008 6:31:00 AM
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Theo-Minor
Posts: 74
Joined: 2/9/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
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I think the point about the "calculator" was made and understood, but if you want to look at it like love being the solution to the input factors, so be it. I think we still both get the point.
Yes, chaperone is more accurate. The pedagogue traveled with the child, supervised it, watched it, etc. We were under the tutledge of the chaperone until Christ, and to lead us to Christ. Once we acquired faith, we were no longer under said guidance or subject to the chaperone's authority. That's the point Paul was making in Galatians.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Also, this view that one can consider oneself sinless simply because that one believe's he has treated his neighbor fairly ignores what Yeshua(Jesus) said was the greatest commandment and relegates "the spirit of the law" to nothing more than a situational ethics.
I disagree with this take on it. The greatest commandment, as I'm sure you're aware, is to love God with all your heart. According to John, we know we love God if we keep his commandments. So I would submit that doing the second greatest commandment is doing the first at the same time. Because we love God, we love those around us (in word and deed), and because we love those around us, we are fulfilling the law (according to the spirit of it).
While anyone can observe the golden rule, even those who don't know God, it is, I believe, the deliberate and conscious decision to apply that golden rule to each and every scenario we encounter that separates us from the heathen ... who don't make such a purposeful decision, or know why they should, or care one way or the other if they don't apply the golden rule.
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Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. (Ecclesiastes 12:13)
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RE: romans 7 - 12/1/2008 5:57:19 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Theo-Minor
I think the point about the "calculator" was made and understood, but if you want to look at it like love being the solution to the input factors, so be it. I think we still both get the point.
Yes, chaperone is more accurate. The pedagogue traveled with the child, supervised it, watched it, etc. We were under the tutledge of the chaperone until Christ, and to lead us to Christ. Once we acquired faith, we were no longer under said guidance or subject to the chaperone's authority. That's the point Paul was making in Galatians.
I do not believe we aquired faith. It is a gift of Adonai, if I am not mistaken. Now are you saying the gift of faith was not available before the sacrifice of HaMeshiach(The Messiah), Hebrews chapter 11 seems to state otherwise.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Also, this view that one can consider oneself sinless simply because that one believe's he has treated his neighbor fairly ignores what Yeshua(Jesus) said was the greatest commandment and relegates "the spirit of the law" to nothing more than a situational ethics.
I disagree with this take on it. The greatest commandment, as I'm sure you're aware, is to love God with all your heart. According to John, we know we love God if we keep his commandments. So I would submit that doing the second greatest commandment is doing the first at the same time. Because we love God, we love those around us (in word and deed), and because we love those around us, we are fulfilling the law (according to the spirit of it).
Good trick. First say the second has priority, then justify this by saying that the first is somehow included in the second. If this were the case, why would Yeshua(Jesus) say the second is like unto the first? Would He not have said the second includes the first? Also, how does the se | | |
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