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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/25/2008 12:24:27 PM
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DaveW
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The legion only left AFTER he came to Jesus.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/25/2008 1:06:49 PM
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earthless
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My point remains Dave, maybe you weren't following all of the posts that sled was making. His concern is that there are born-again believers walking around inhabited by demons.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/25/2008 2:59:46 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
My point remains Dave, maybe you weren't following all of the posts that sled was making. His concern is that there are born-again believers walking around inhabited by demons. I was one of them for several years.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/25/2008 7:27:03 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
My point remains Dave, maybe you weren't following all of the posts that sled was making. His concern is that there are born-again believers walking around inhabited by demons. I was one of them for several years.
Alas, we come full circle back to a question I asked you a few pages ago that was not addressed by you nor anyone else for that matter.
Show me where a born-again believer is inhabited by demons in Scripture, thanks.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/26/2008 7:37:26 AM
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jerowhy
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He just testified concerning his experience. What post is more important than that. Is there anything that someone has to say that would be encouraging instead of dismissing a problem that might occur, or that someone has to overcome through Faith in Christ and prayer?
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
My point remains Dave, maybe you weren't following all of the posts that sled was making. His concern is that there are born-again believers walking around inhabited by demons. I was one of them for several years.
Alas, we come full circle back to a question I asked you a few pages ago that was not addressed by you nor anyone else for that matter.
Show me where a born-again believer is inhabited by demons in Scripture, thanks.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/26/2008 8:26:54 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jerowhy
He just testified concerning his experience. What post is more important than that.
Experience does not trump Scripture. And is certainly not more important than God's Word, I know Dave agrees with that.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/26/2008 11:19:08 AM
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jerowhy
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The Spiritual Man (Jesus) makes Judgments about all things, and is subject to no mans judgment. The secret lawlessness of the sinful inner being of the law of the sinful nature on the inside must be overcome by all believers throughout their lives as warfare spiritual. This is fighting the Good fight.
Therefore, who spoke through Peter when Jesus rebuked him? Jesus said to satan to get behind Him, for He had already been tempted. A foothold in bad mouther or disbelief is of the devil. To condemn falsely is the devil's works against Saints. Anything beyond this comes from the evil one was Scripture.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: jerowhy
He just testified concerning his experience. What post is more important than that.
Experience does not trump Scripture. And is certainly not more important than God's Word, I know Dave agrees with that.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/26/2008 11:58:48 AM
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Lapidoth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jerowhy
The Spiritual Man (Jesus) makes Judgments about all things, and is subject to no mans judgment. The secret lawlessness of the sinful inner being of the law of the sinful nature on the inside must be overcome by all believers throughout their lives as warfare spiritual. This is fighting the Good fight.
Therefore, who spoke through Peter when Jesus rebuked him? Jesus said to satan to get behind Him, for He had already been tempted. A foothold in bad mouther or disbelief is of the devil. To condemn falsely is the devil's works against Saints. Anything beyond this comes from the evil one was Scripture.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: jerowhy
He just testified concerning his experience. What post is more important than that.
Experience does not trump Scripture. And is certainly not more important than God's Word, I know Dave agrees with that.
A case can be made with a word study that Jesus could have been rebuking Peter himself.
Satan in the original means "adversary." If Peter was against Jesus' plans, Peter was his
adversary.
He could have been saying, "Peter, you adversary, get behind me, out of my way!"
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/26/2008 12:04:20 PM
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jerowhy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
ORIGINAL: jerowhy
The Spiritual Man (Jesus) makes Judgments about all things, and is subject to no mans judgment. The secret lawlessness of the sinful inner being of the law of the sinful nature on the inside must be overcome by all believers throughout their lives as warfare spiritual. This is fighting the Good fight.
Therefore, who spoke through Peter when Jesus rebuked him? Jesus said to satan to get behind Him, for He had already been tempted. A foothold in bad mouther or disbelief is of the devil. To condemn falsely is the devil's works against Saints. Anything beyond this comes from the evil one was Scripture.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: jerowhy
He just testified concerning his experience. What post is more important than that.
Experience does not trump Scripture. And is certainly not more important than God's Word, I know Dave agrees with that.
A case can be made with a word study that Jesus could have been rebuking Peter himself.
Satan in the original means "adversary." If Peter was against Jesus' plans, Peter was his
adversary.
He could have been saying, "Peter, you adversary, get behind me, out of my way!"
Thank you! Jesus was also written: 'you are a stumbling block to me.' Therefore, if the rock on which The Church was built was a stumbling block to some. We see that also Jesus can relate.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/26/2008 3:36:15 PM
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earthless
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jerowhy,
Our experiences and emotions do not trump God's Word.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/26/2008 5:53:52 PM
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jerowhy
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Amen. And Jesus wept for Jerusalem and lamented for Egypt and lamented for Judea in The Holy Gospel. And The Apostle taught Us that Jesus learned obedience through fellowship of the sufferings He endured on earth among us evil people and submitted to the Cross. The Word of God in the flesh dwelt in feelings in Word and Deed in submissions to God's Will and Holy Love through compassion on the lost.
Relationships are built on love and trust and commitment to each other producing higher understandings of God's love for us. One must understand in love to overcome in submission to God in Faith given by the grace of God. David cries and is joyful and dances and experiences the hardships of being rejected by God in his relationship with God.
We are fallen creatures redeemed by the grace of God alone. What would darkness ever have anything to do with The Light? For The Spirit of God hovered over the face of the darkness of the deep of the well of people's souls. He Will not contend with people forever, one must seek Him and learn from Him and His easy yoke of love and Love Him. Only God IS Good.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
jerowhy,
Our experiences and emotions do not trump God's Word.
< Message edited by jerowhy -- 11/26/2008 6:01:04 PM >
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/26/2008 6:19:39 PM
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rapturefish
Posts: 102
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This thread has seriously gone off on a different tangent - no more signs and wonders discussions here anymore. 
Just one thing - If scripture trumps experience, then it's also true that experience cannot contradict the word. If people are observed to be Christians and also have an element of being controlled or influenced by a demonic presence, then either:
1) The person is not saved despite claims to be;
2) Our interpretation of scripture is mistaken;
3) The scriptures, while complete for God's purposes, do not cover this question sufficiently or is relatively silent or open on whether Christians can be demonised.
I believe that any of these reasons could be valid depending on the case. However, I feel that it is too simplistic to resort to the first one too quickly the moment someone appears demonised. It is wise to assess cases first and deal with them according to scriptural principles. the second possibility is always possible. The third one does happen, and where scripture appears not to address it directly, we go on principles and observe.
For example, does scripture tell us that tongues are known or unknown languages? Taking both Acts and 1 Corinthians we see that scripture appears to support both. Is that a correct interpretation? Observing tongues speakers one finds at least anecdotally that both kinds have been observed.
If scripture appears not to mention Christians being demonised or teach that Christians cannot be demonised it only means that scripture is silent. We then go on observation. And, in the end it matters little - if anybody is demonised, Christian or not, Christians still need to call on the name of Jesus, and convince the person to declare Jesus as Lord, or choose to want to be free. And if the person is freed, they need to give their life to Jesus or recommit to Jesus.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/27/2008 7:28:42 AM
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OleFitzHi
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Let me restate your position. You state that approx. 25% of the people Jesus contacted were demon-possessed. Therefore 25% of the people today are demon-possesed. Therefore 25% of the church was demon-possessed before conversion.
You are stating that the demon remains in the person after conversion and causes all kinds of problems. You state that this person should have the demon cast out prior to conversion, kind of like an add-on to the Gospel. Did I get that right?
How would you know which people were the 25% that needed the exorcism? Would you cast demons out of everyone regardless of whether they had them or not? Everyone just line up and you touch them?
Tell me how this works practically...
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
earthless,
Interesting post. I don't see how this explain (if or not) a demon can leave a person at the moment of salvation.
Like people have said before, the word demon-possessed is a poor translation from the Greek. Not to mention, there are verse in the Gospel that don't use demon-possessed, but just demon.
What I find even more interesting is that about everywhere where Christ is healing people, he is also casting out demons. They seem to go hand and foot.
To be honest, if Christ would have just cast a demon out once or twice, we probably could leave this for "just those special occasions". But, we see him doing this quite regular. Many were healed and many demons were casted out. That make me wonder, how many people do we meet on the street that have some physical sickness that is caused by a demon.
This would be a interesting study, take all the people that are taking drugs for different mental problems, and take them off drugs, and see if over time that we would start seeing some of those signs of "demon-possession" recorded in the Gospel.
Last but not least, The Lord commanded us to cast out demons.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 12/1/2008 7:54:00 PM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
Joined: 8/25/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OleFitzHi
Let me restate your position. You state that approx. 25% of the people Jesus contacted were demon-possessed. Therefore 25% of the people today are demon-possesed. Therefore 25% of the church was demon-possessed before conversion.
You are stating that the demon remains in the person after conversion and causes all kinds of problems. You state that this person should have the demon cast out prior to conversion, kind of like an add-on to the Gospel. Did I get that right?
How would you know which people were the 25% that needed the exorcism? Would you cast demons out of everyone regardless of whether they had them or not? Everyone just line up and you touch them?
Tell me how this works practically...
25% was a somewhat conservative figure.
I believe alot of the church believes that demonized is rare. That way I made a point about the 25%. If it was around 25% during the NT church, maybe it that today. Just something to ponder.
If you call Jesus casting out demons, an add-on, then this should be added to the Gospel message.
Where the rubber meets the road, believers need to move in the Spirit of discernment or word of knowledge when talking people that are unsaved. That way, we as Spirit filled believers, know when someone unsaved is demonized.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 12/2/2008 7:01:23 PM
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sledmt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
It should be noted here that the Christian cannot be possessed by a demon, in the same way people in the Bible are described as being possessed.
If you want to answer it over here, thats fine. I'm just curious how support this idea?
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 12/2/2008 7:28:02 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
It should be noted here that the Christian cannot be possessed by a demon, in the same way people in the Bible are described as being possessed.
If you want to answer it over here, thats fine. I'm just curious how support this idea?
I have provided ample Scriptural support in this thread already. Do you have a question, perhaps, on something I and others have shared?
Also, you keep wanting me to provide more and more support for how the Holy Spirit in a born-again believer will not be bullied or shared with and or by the demonic.. yet you have not ever provided one single biblical evidence for your belief - that a born-again believer can be inhabited/possessed by demon(s).
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 12/2/2008 7:38:19 PM
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sledmt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
It should be noted here that the Christian cannot be possessed by a demon, in the same way people in the Bible are described as being possessed.
If you want to answer it over here, thats fine. I'm just curious how support this idea?
I have provided ample Scriptural support in this thread already. Do you have a question, perhaps, on something I and others have shared?
Also, you keep wanting me to provide more and more support for how the Holy Spirit in a born-again believer will not be bullied or shared with and or by the demonic.. yet you have not ever provided one single biblical evidence for your belief - that a born-again believer can be inhabited/possessed by demon(s).
The statement you made in the other thread, is unlike any statement I read in this thread.
But moving on, I will provide some rather simple Bible knowledge to prove my point.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 12/2/2008 7:40:23 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6348
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
The statement you made in the other thread, is unlike any statement I read in this thread.
No it is not. I made it here on page 2, post #44 of this thread. Which I linked for you just a short while ago.
A born-again believer cannot be inhabited/possessed by the demonic.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
But moving on, I will provide some rather simple Bible knowledge to prove my point.
We have all been waiting for several pages and several days - I personally look forward to you showing us all one single example of a born-again believer being inhabited/possessed by demon(s).
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 12/2/2008 7:41:54 PM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
Joined: 8/25/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
It should be noted here that the Christian cannot be possessed by a demon, in the same way people in the Bible are described as being possessed.
If you want to answer it over here, thats fine. I'm just curious how support this idea?
I have provided ample Scriptural support in this thread already. Do you have a question, perhaps, on something I and others have shared?
Also, you keep wanting me to provide more and more support for how the Holy Spirit in a born-again believer will not be bullied or shared with and or by the demonic.. yet you have not ever provided one single biblical evidence for your belief - that a born-again believer can be inhabited/possessed by demon(s).
The problem I have is the scripture that you provided really don't address the problem that we are talking about. It doesn't come out say anything about demons. In a way I wish it did, but it is not clear about how a person is demon possessed and what part of the person the demon takes up home in.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 12/2/2008 7:49:51 PM
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sledmt
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Joined: 8/25/2008
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oops, forgot to put the rest of the message down,
Here it is:
We know from the Word the salvation available to anyone that will believe in Christ. John 3:16
So, for the demonized man that call on the Lord he is saved.
No where in the word does it show us that the demon leave at salvation without being cast out by a believer. The four Gospels shows us how the demon leaves. So, if no one cast out the demon at salvation and since salvation is available to all that will believe, the man is now a Christian that still has a demon in them that should be casted out.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 12/2/2008 8:39:02 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2478
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
oops, forgot to put the rest of the message down,
Here it is:
We know from the Word the salvation available to anyone that will believe in Christ. John 3:16
So, for the demonized man that call on the Lord he is saved.
No where in the word does it show us that the demon leave at salvation without being cast out by a believer. The four Gospels shows us how the demon leaves. So, if no one cast out the demon at salvation and since salvation is available to all that will believe, the man is now a Christian that still has a demon in them that should be casted out.
Why would someone who is demon possessed ever accept the gift of salvation in the first place? you think the demon would allow that?
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 12/2/2008 9:52:57 PM
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themoodyexperience
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From: Tuscumbia, Alabama
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2 Corinthians 6:14
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
I know the first part of the verse talks about being unequally yoked, but the truth in the second part is more than applicable to this discussion. The Bible makes it clear than light can have no fellowship with darkness. How do you then argue that a born again Christian can be demon possessed?
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 12/2/2008 10:01:22 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6348
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
So, for the demonized man that call on the Lord he is saved.
This utterly contradicts your statement from the last page or two. Change of mind?
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 12/2/2008 11:41:39 PM
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sledmt
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Joined: 8/25/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
So, for the demonized man that call on the Lord he is saved.
This utterly contradicts your statement from the last page or two. Change of mind?
I don't know what you think I said, but I do know that just because he called on the Lord, does not mean the demon left him. The demon need to be casted out by a believer.
No where in the word do we have an example of a demon leaving without being cast out or drove out.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 12/2/2008 11:58:52 PM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
Joined: 8/25/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: themoodyexperience
2 Corinthians 6:14
Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
I know the first part of the verse talks about being unequally yoked, but the truth in the second part is more than applicable to this discussion. The Bible makes it clear than light can have no fellowship with darkness. How do you then argue that a born again Christian can be demon possessed?
Interesting verse you use to support your belief. Taking in the context of the section, I believe that it is refering to false teacher that are lead of Satan. But, for the moment, let assume we can apply the verses in the section to this discussion.
Several verses down, it makes a OT reference. It says "they" separate you selfs. One could take this to mean that they were involved with something not Godly. Clean your selfs your not ungodliness.
For today: Christians can be yolked with "demon".
They "Christians" need to get rid of those demons.
Does this make sense.
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