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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/21/2008 8:39:36 AM
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earthless
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sled,
First and foremost, the Lord mandates we preach the Gospel, the Word. Which is why my two questions are so crucial to this discussion.
The first one being how does salvation come about - and Who convicts a person of sin?
The brass tacks of this discussion is not that hard: a born-again believer cannot be demon possessed/inhabited because they have the Holy Spirit and are His property.
But getting back to something you did mention earlier which is indeed relevant; are there scores of people in our churches that think they are saved but are not? Most definitely.
Are we to pray for them and preach the Word? Yes!
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/21/2008 11:21:44 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
Some refer to Christians who are under a STRONG demonic influence as being “demonized,” but never is there an example in Scripture of a believer in Christ being POSSESSED by a demon, and most theologians believe that a Christian CANNOT be possessed because he has the Holy Spirit abiding within (2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19). Earthless - can you show from scripture where there is a distinction between demonized and possessed?
"Possessed" is an artifact of Elizabethan english (KVJ) that is now better rendered "demonized." No distinction. So for you to say that an unbeliever can be "possessed" but a believer can only be "demonized" is misleading.
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/21/2008 12:43:21 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
Some refer to Christians who are under a STRONG demonic influence as being “demonized,” but never is there an example in Scripture of a believer in Christ being POSSESSED by a demon, and most theologians believe that a Christian CANNOT be possessed because he has the Holy Spirit abiding within (2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19). Earthless - can you show from scripture where there is a distinction between demonized and possessed?
"Possessed" is an artifact of Elizabethan english (KVJ) that is now better rendered "demonized." No distinction. So for you to say that an unbeliever can be "possessed" but a believer can only be "demonized" is misleading.
I asked a while back and it seems due to your question here that it needs to be asked again - do you believe a born-again believer can be inhabited/possessed/controlled by the demonic?
I believe I have more than explained my position from Scripture.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/21/2008 3:26:39 PM
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DaveW
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Inhabited - yes.
Controlled - only partly. More like heavily influenced.
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/21/2008 3:50:43 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Inhabited - yes.
Can you show me this belief where a born-again believer can be inhabited by demons in Scripture please? Thanks.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/21/2008 5:28:26 PM
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sledmt
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Can a Christian be demon possessed has been more your question. You seem to think that once your question is answered, the question of casting out demons is some how answered. In one aspect it is. If we are to believe as you believe that a Christian can't be demon possessed, then Christian witnessessing really needs to include casting out demon. Because there could be group of unsaved people that could never recieve the Gospel until that demon has left the body according to your doctrine.
To be honest, driving the demon out prior to salvation is what is seen in the Gospel.
So, is the Gospel for everyone that can believe (expect those demon possessed)?
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/21/2008 5:59:43 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Can a Christian be demon possessed has been more your question. You seem to think that once your question is answered, the question of casting out demons is some how answered. In one aspect it is. If we are to believe as you believe that a Christian can't be demon possessed, then Christian witnessessing really needs to include casting out demon. Because there could be group of unsaved people that could never recieve the Gospel until that demon has left the body according to your doctrine.
To be honest, driving the demon out prior to salvation is what is seen in the Gospel.
So, is the Gospel for everyone that can believe (expect those demon possessed)?
Our mandate is to preach the Gospel to all. The Holy Spirit is the One that does the rest.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/21/2008 6:18:05 PM
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sledmt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Can a Christian be demon possessed has been more your question. You seem to think that once your question is answered, the question of casting out demons is some how answered. In one aspect it is. If we are to believe as you believe that a Christian can't be demon possessed, then Christian witnessessing really needs to include casting out demon. Because there could be group of unsaved people that could never recieve the Gospel until that demon has left the body according to your doctrine.
To be honest, driving the demon out prior to salvation is what is seen in the Gospel.
So, is the Gospel for everyone that can believe (expect those demon possessed)?
Our mandate is to preach the Gospel to all. The Holy Spirit is the One that does the rest.
The Holy Spirit does the rest??? What the rest. Give some examples.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/21/2008 6:21:16 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
The Holy Spirit does the rest??? What the rest. Give some examples.
We are saved by faith. First, we must hear the Gospel - the good news of Jesus’ death and resurrection (Ephesians 1:13).
The Holy Spirit convicts the person of their sin, of their need of Jesus.
Then, we must believe - fully trust the Lord Jesus (Romans 1:16). This involves repentance, a changing of mind about sin and Christ (Acts 3:19), and calling on the name of the Lord (Romans 10:9-10, 13).
A definition of the Christian doctrine of salvation would be “The spiritual, eternal deliverance which God immediately grants to those who accept His conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.”
Salvation is available in Jesus alone (John 14:6; Acts 4:12), and is dependent on God alone for provision, assurance, and security.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/21/2008 7:15:15 PM
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sledmt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
A definition of the Christian doctrine of salvation would be “The spiritual, eternal deliverance which God immediately grants to those who accept His conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.”
Just so I understand where you are coming from:
Salvation is available to all who will believe and call on the Lord.
The "spiritual deliverance" would provide instant "freedom" from a person that was demon-possessed at the moment of salvation.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/21/2008 9:37:57 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
A definition of the Christian doctrine of salvation would be “The spiritual, eternal deliverance which God immediately grants to those who accept His conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.”
Just so I understand where you are coming from:
Salvation is available to all who will believe and call on the Lord.
The "spiritual deliverance" would provide instant "freedom" from a person that was demon-possessed at the moment of salvation.
I asked this of you two entire pages ago:
Do you believe a demon inhabited/controlled individual.. can those demons accept the Lord as their Savior? Can they repent of their sin?
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/21/2008 10:46:32 PM
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sledmt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
A definition of the Christian doctrine of salvation would be “The spiritual, eternal deliverance which God immediately grants to those who accept His conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.”
Just so I understand where you are coming from:
Salvation is available to all who will believe and call on the Lord.
The "spiritual deliverance" would provide instant "freedom" from a person that was demon-possessed at the moment of salvation.
Is this what you believe or not???
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/22/2008 8:12:31 AM
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earthless
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sled,
I am asked a question and I respond with Scripture and context.
I ask you a question and you respond with either silence or more questions.
Sorry, but that is not par for the course nor civil.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/22/2008 12:05:00 PM
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jerowhy
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Thank you for your guidance on fufilled Prophecy. I hope that those in chains of spiritual darkness will be released as in The Acceptable Year of The Lord.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: jerowhy
Brother earthless, was Judas having only a demon after making a decision to partake in the plot to kill Christ for mammon? Wasn't the devil, himself, present after Jesus delivered him over for making such a plan? Judas was one of the original Apostles.
Therefore, if we allow footholds for satan to master us aren't we also subject to the service of those powers instead? Not that we dont' fall in many ways, but that some sins are bad enough to remove someone at Jesus' own discretion.
Therefore, maybe at those moments are words and actions performed that may be under the infulence of the demon powers. This is called fighting the Good fight. Anyone who speaks evil and lies is speaking devil out of the darkness within them.
The Bible clearly indicates that Judas was not saved.
Jesus Himself said of Judas, “The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born” (Matthew 26:24).
Here is a clear picture of the sovereignty of God and the will of man working together.
God had, from ages past, determined that Christ would be betrayed by Judas, die on the cross for our sins, and be resurrected. This is what Jesus meant when He said He would “go just as it is written about him.”
Nothing would stop the plan of God to provide salvation for mankind.
However, the fact that it was all foreordained does not excuse Judas or absolve him from the punishment he would suffer for his part in the drama.
Judas made his own choices, and they were the source of his own damnation.
Yet the choices fit perfectly into the sovereign plan of God.
God controls not only the good, but also the evil of man to accomplish His own ends. Here we see Jesus condemning Judas, but when you consider that Judas traveled with Jesus for nearly three years, we know He also gave Judas ample opportunity for salvation and repentance.
Even after his dreadful deed, Judas could have fallen on his knees to beg God’s forgiveness for his betrayal. But he did not.
He may have felt some remorse born of fear which caused him to return the money to the Pharisees, but he never repented, preferring instead to commit suicide, the ultimate act of selfishness (Matthew 27:5-8).
John 17:12 says concerning Judas, “While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.”
At one time, though, Judas believed that Jesus was a prophet, or possibly even believed He was the Messiah. Jesus sent the disciples out to proclaim the Gospel and perform miracles (Luke 9:1-6). Judas was included in this group.
Judas had faith, but it was not a true saving faith. Judas was never “saved” but for a time he was a follower of Christ.
Please let me know if you have any other questions, God bless.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/22/2008 12:08:18 PM
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jerowhy
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Was Peter being influenced directly by the devil when he rebuked Christ? Did the dark one not ask to sift him in a denial decision, then? Was it not denying Jesus publicly and His Testimony that resulted in The cock Prophecy? Jesus Prayed for His Strengthening to overcome and return and Personally Came to ask if he loved Him. Do you Agape Me? Do you Agape (love Me although I have something against you and may your adversary to make peace with on the way before Judgment)? Do you phileo (love me if I restore you to friendship which is the supper of doing The Will of God)? Peter was hurt, but Jesus said that no one believes My Testimony, but Love always believes and The One has Believed it has certified that what God said was True. I no longer call you (the 12) servants, I call you friends. For a servant knows not what The Master Does for Business. The one who knows The Will but does not do it will be beaten more, the one who is ignorant of The Will for them will be beaten less. Now that you know these things one will be Blessed when doing them. If the servants had known at what time Jesus would show up they would have been preparing. The Sons remain forever for they are slaves in The Freedom Christ Gives to do The Way that they should go. To a people given much talents, the more will be asked. 'I want to give to those that were profitable for the Kingdom. So that they will have an abundance. Even taking from the one hiding His Talent, and giving it to the stephanos runners who overcome in triumph.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
A definition of the Christian doctrine of salvation would be “The spiritual, eternal deliverance which God immediately grants to those who accept His conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.”
Just so I understand where you are coming from:
Salvation is available to all who will believe and call on the Lord.
The "spiritual deliverance" would provide instant "freedom" from a person that was demon-possessed at the moment of salvation.
I asked this of you two entire pages ago:
Do you believe a demon inhabited/controlled individual.. can those demons accept the Lord as their Savior? Can they repent of their sin?
< Message edited by jerowhy -- 11/22/2008 12:26:12 PM >
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/22/2008 6:28:17 PM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jerowhy
Was Peter being influenced directly by the devil when he rebuked Christ? Did the dark one not ask to sift him in a denial decision, then? Was it not denying Jesus publicly and His Testimony that resulted in The cock Prophecy? Jesus Prayed for His Strengthening to overcome and return and Personally Came to ask if he loved Him. Do you Agape Me? Do you Agape (love Me although I have something against you and may your adversary to make peace with on the way before Judgment)? Do you phileo (love me if I restore you to friendship which is the supper of doing The Will of God)? Peter was hurt, but Jesus said that no one believes My Testimony, but Love always believes and The One has Believed it has certified that what God said was True. I no longer call you (the 12) servants, I call you friends. For a servant knows not what The Master Does for Business. The one who knows The Will but does not do it will be beaten more, the one who is ignorant of The Will for them will be beaten less. Now that you know these things one will be Blessed when doing them. If the servants had known at what time Jesus would show up they would have been preparing. The Sons remain forever for they are slaves in The Freedom Christ Gives to do The Way that they should go. To a people given much talents, the more will be asked. 'I want to give to those that were profitable for the Kingdom. So that they will have an abundance. Even taking from the one hiding His Talent, and giving it to the stephanos runners who overcome in triumph.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
A definition of the Christian doctrine of salvation would be “The spiritual, eternal deliverance which God immediately grants to those who accept His conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.”
Just so I understand where you are coming from:
Salvation is available to all who will believe and call on the Lord.
The "spiritual deliverance" would provide instant "freedom" from a person that was demon-possessed at the moment of salvation.
I asked this of you two entire pages ago:
Do you believe a demon inhabited/controlled individual.. can those demons accept the Lord as their Savior? Can they repent of their sin?
Interesting... Explain a little more.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/22/2008 6:29:23 PM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
Joined: 8/25/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
The Holy Spirit does the rest??? What the rest. Give some examples.
We are saved by faith. First, we must hear the Gospel - the good news of Jesus’ death and resurrection (Ephesians 1:13).
The Holy Spirit convicts the person of their sin, of their need of Jesus.
Then, we must believe - fully trust the Lord Jesus (Romans 1:16). This involves repentance, a changing of mind about sin and Christ (Acts 3:19), and calling on the name of the Lord (Romans 10:9-10, 13).
A definition of the Christian doctrine of salvation would be “The spiritual, eternal deliverance which God immediately grants to those who accept His conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus.”
Salvation is available in Jesus alone (John 14:6; Acts 4:12), and is dependent on God alone for provision, assurance, and security.
Could you explain how you interpet "spiritual" in your statement.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/22/2008 7:42:15 PM
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earthless
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sled,
I am asked a question and I respond with Scripture and context.
I ask you a question and you respond with either silence or more questions.
Sorry, but that is not par for the course nor civil.
Please answer some of my questions for a change and then we can continue. Thank you.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/22/2008 7:50:58 PM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
Joined: 8/25/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
sled,
I am asked a question and I respond with Scripture and context.
I ask you a question and you respond with either silence or more questions.
Sorry, but that is not par for the course nor civil.
Please answer some of my questions for a change and then we can continue. Thank you.
Ok, since there has been many questions floating around, whats was your question.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/22/2008 7:52:39 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6348
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Ok, since there has been many questions floating around, whats was your question.
In regards to a demon inhabited/controlled individual.. can those demons accept the Lord as their Savior? Can they repent of their sin?
_____________________________
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/22/2008 9:59:05 PM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
Joined: 8/25/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Ok, since there has been many questions floating around, whats was your question.
In regards to a demon inhabited/controlled individual.. can those demons accept the Lord as their Savior? Can they repent of their sin?
Why would a demon want salvation. Why would they try to repent? Even if he could, he can't. The Lord has not provided salvation for demons, but for man.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/23/2008 8:15:41 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6348
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Ok, since there has been many questions floating around, whats was your question.
In regards to a demon inhabited/controlled individual.. can those demons accept the Lord as their Savior? Can they repent of their sin?
Why would a demon want salvation. Why would they try to repent? Even if he could, he can't. The Lord has not provided salvation for demons, but for man.
Thank you.
You have answered your own questions. Have a good one and let me know if you need anything else.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/25/2008 6:53:14 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4166
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Do you believe a demon inhabited/controlled individual.. can those demons accept the Lord as their Savior? Can they repent of their sin? If the guy with the legion could drag himself to Jesus despite being severely demonized, he could accept Jesus as Lord and savior. Of course the demons would not.
You make an extrabiblical assumption that if someone is inhabited by the demonic, they have absolutely no control or can make no decisions themselves meaning the demons are 100% in control of their thoughts and actions. Legion disproves that.
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/25/2008 10:21:39 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6348
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Do you believe a demon inhabited/controlled individual.. can those demons accept the Lord as their Savior? Can they repent of their sin? If the guy with the legion could drag himself to Jesus despite being severely demonized, he could accept Jesus as Lord and savior. Of course the demons would not.
You make an extrabiblical assumption that if someone is inhabited by the demonic, they have absolutely no control or can make no decisions themselves meaning the demons are 100% in control of their thoughts and actions. Legion disproves that.
We still get back to my original post all along - the legion of demons did not remain in the man, correct? Exactly my point to sled all along that was concerned about born-again believers having demons.
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