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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/19/2008 9:27:34 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jerowhy
Brother earthless, was Judas having only a demon after making a decision to partake in the plot to kill Christ for mammon? Wasn't the devil, himself, present after Jesus delivered him over for making such a plan? Judas was one of the original Apostles.
Therefore, if we allow footholds for satan to master us aren't we also subject to the service of those powers instead? Not that we dont' fall in many ways, but that some sins are bad enough to remove someone at Jesus' own discretion.
Therefore, maybe at those moments are words and actions performed that may be under the infulence of the demon powers. This is called fighting the Good fight. Anyone who speaks evil and lies is speaking devil out of the darkness within them.
The Bible clearly indicates that Judas was not saved.
Jesus Himself said of Judas, “The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born” (Matthew 26:24).
Here is a clear picture of the sovereignty of God and the will of man working together.
God had, from ages past, determined that Christ would be betrayed by Judas, die on the cross for our sins, and be resurrected. This is what Jesus meant when He said He would “go just as it is written about him.”
Nothing would stop the plan of God to provide salvation for mankind.
However, the fact that it was all foreordained does not excuse Judas or absolve him from the punishment he would suffer for his part in the drama.
Judas made his own choices, and they were the source of his own damnation.
Yet the choices fit perfectly into the sovereign plan of God.
God controls not only the good, but also the evil of man to accomplish His own ends. Here we see Jesus condemning Judas, but when you consider that Judas traveled with Jesus for nearly three years, we know He also gave Judas ample opportunity for salvation and repentance.
Even after his dreadful deed, Judas could have fallen on his knees to beg God’s forgiveness for his betrayal. But he did not.
He may have felt some remorse born of fear which caused him to return the money to the Pharisees, but he never repented, preferring instead to commit suicide, the ultimate act of selfishness (Matthew 27:5-8).
John 17:12 says concerning Judas, “While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.”
At one time, though, Judas believed that Jesus was a prophet, or possibly even believed He was the Messiah. Jesus sent the disciples out to proclaim the Gospel and perform miracles (Luke 9:1-6). Judas was included in this group.
Judas had faith, but it was not a true saving faith. Judas was never “saved” but for a time he was a follower of Christ.
Please let me know if you have any other questions, God bless.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 1:14:36 AM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Sincerely speaking - if the following questions I asked both Dave and you are answered.. your own question becomes a lot more clearer:
What brings about repentance? Hearing the Word - the conviction of sin, correct?
Who brings about that conviction?
A person possessed by a demon is controlled by the demon(s). Do you agree?
Please show us how it get clearer...
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 2:12:10 AM
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jerowhy
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sledmt; The Word divides between the spirit of a person and their soul. If a person has been oppressed by something, the Lord can deliver the soul just as He can deliver the spirit. This was called captivity or prison by Christ; a daughter of Israel was imprisoned called Mary Magdelene. If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. Freedom found in Christ to Good Fruits and Kingdom Work in Loving your neighbors in Christ and abroad.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Since the demon doesn't leave at salvation, then there is either alot of unsaved people in church
Well, I wouldn't doubt this....
That concern me. I don't want to be responsible for people ending up in hell for my lack of spiritual maturity and not moving in deliverance.
< Message edited by jerowhy -- 11/20/2008 3:57:42 AM >
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 2:56:21 AM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jerowhy
sledmt; The Word divides between the spirit of a person and their soul. If a person has been oppressed by something, the Lord can deliver the soul just as He can deliver the spirit. This was called captivity or prison by Christ; a daughter of Israel was imprisoned called Mary Magdelene.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Since the demon doesn't leave at salvation, then there is either alot of unsaved people in church
Well, I wouldn't doubt this....
That concern me. I don't want to be responsible for people ending up in hell for my lack of spiritual maturity and not moving in deliverance.
If that was the case, why did Christ cast out demons????? Huh
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 3:52:38 AM
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jerowhy
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OK. Then you agree with earthless.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: jerowhy
sledmt; The Word divides between the spirit of a person and their soul. If a person has been oppressed by something, the Lord can deliver the soul just as He can deliver the spirit. This was called captivity or prison by Christ; a daughter of Israel was imprisoned called Mary Magdelene.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Since the demon doesn't leave at salvation, then there is either alot of unsaved people in church
Well, I wouldn't doubt this....
That concern me. I don't want to be responsible for people ending up in hell for my lack of spiritual maturity and not moving in deliverance.
If that was the case, why did Christ cast out demons????? Huh
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 3:55:35 AM
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sledmt
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Huh??
What did you mean by your orginal statement?
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 4:01:18 AM
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jerowhy
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Its not our Kingdom and not our place to determine who and where certain people should be conferred power to do work for Christ. The disciples asked to stop someone who was operating in Power because they were not part of their group, Jesus said not to do so.
We should do that which The Lord has called Us and we also do all things for the Lord. Whatever our hands find to do, we do for Jesus. Some people could pray for you to receive the conferrence of the Power, they have to have that power given through The Holy Spirit.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Huh??
What did you mean by your orginal statement?
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 4:20:22 AM
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sledmt
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I'm still a little bit confused by your last statement. Could you give a little more detail. How do you believe this applies to casting out demons?
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 5:53:30 AM
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OleFitzHi
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Well, here is a point of difference. I believe that it is not.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Earthless, you mentioned that we should just preach the full Gospel eariler, but I really wonder if we are preaching the full Gospel. Is not casting out demons part of the Gospel? I believe that it is. I'm personally seeking to be aware of this so that if the Lord would call be to do this, I ready to be moved by the Spirit.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 6:38:25 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
A person possessed by a demon is controlled by the demon(s). Do you agree? First off - you KNOW that "possessed" is not a good translation, at least for 21st century English. Demonized is a better rendering.
As to control, NO ONE is ever 100% controlled by a demon. Even the guy with the legion (demons by the thousands) still had the wherewithall to drag himself before Jesus, even as they were yelling thru him.
The guy in Luke 4 who manifested a demon while sitting in the synagogue - it is not said that anyone including himself had any idea he was carrying a demon around with him. Not until the Light of the World showed up and this entity of darkness reacted to Him.
I would submit that a person can be inhabited by an unclean spirit perhaps their whole life and be completely unaware of it.
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 8:13:34 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6348
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Sincerely speaking - if the following questions I asked both Dave and you are answered.. your own question becomes a lot more clearer:
What brings about repentance? Hearing the Word - the conviction of sin, correct?
Who brings about that conviction?
A person possessed by a demon is controlled by the demon(s). Do you agree?
Please show us how it get clearer...
Can you answer the questions?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 8:15:17 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6348
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
A person possessed by a demon is controlled by the demon(s). Do you agree? First off - you KNOW that "possessed" is not a good translation, at least for 21st century English. Demonized is a better rendering.
As to control, NO ONE is ever 100% controlled by a demon. Even the guy with the legion (demons by the thousands) still had the wherewithall to drag himself before Jesus, even as they were yelling thru him.
The guy in Luke 4 who manifested a demon while sitting in the synagogue - it is not said that anyone including himself had any idea he was carrying a demon around with him. Not until the Light of the World showed up and this entity of darkness reacted to Him.
I would submit that a person can be inhabited by an unclean spirit perhaps their whole life and be completely unaware of it.
But the core question being tossed to and fro here is whether you believe a born-again believer can be inhabited by an unclean spirit perhaps their whole life and be completely unaware of it?
My two simple questions have not been answered by either sled or you. And that is fine, but the answer to those two questions..answers the one sled keeps asking.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 1:22:53 PM
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DaveW
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earthless - you know I have always maintained that a believer CAN be demonized.
I know - I was for many years as a young believer.
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 1:40:28 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6348
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
earthless - you know I have always maintained that a believer CAN be demonized.
I know - I was for many years as a young believer.
Can you please explain what you mean by demonized? As in oppressed and influenced by the demonic or inhabited by the demonic?
And whenever sled and you can get to my two questions, please do.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 2:01:07 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4166
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
What brings about repentance? Hearing the Word - the conviction of sin, correct? Correct.
quote:
Who brings about that conviction? The Holy Spirit. Please note there is a thread on whether the HS does that to unbelievers only started by RJR.
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 2:34:59 PM
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sledmt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Sincerely speaking - if the following questions I asked both Dave and you are answered.. your own question becomes a lot more clearer:
What brings about repentance? Hearing the Word - the conviction of sin, correct?
Who brings about that conviction?
A person possessed by a demon is controlled by the demon(s). Do you agree?
Please show us how it get clearer...
Can you answer the questions?
Can you answer DaveW question?
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 2:36:17 PM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
Joined: 8/25/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
A person possessed by a demon is controlled by the demon(s). Do you agree? First off - you KNOW that "possessed" is not a good translation, at least for 21st century English. Demonized is a better rendering.
As to control, NO ONE is ever 100% controlled by a demon. Even the guy with the legion (demons by the thousands) still had the wherewithall to drag himself before Jesus, even as they were yelling thru him.
The guy in Luke 4 who manifested a demon while sitting in the synagogue - it is not said that anyone including himself had any idea he was carrying a demon around with him. Not until the Light of the World showed up and this entity of darkness reacted to Him.
I would submit that a person can be inhabited by an unclean spirit perhaps their whole life and be completely unaware of it.
But the core question being tossed to and fro here is whether you believe a born-again believer can be inhabited by an unclean spirit perhaps their whole life and be completely unaware of it?
My two simple questions have not been answered by either sled or you. And that is fine, but the answer to those two questions..answers the one sled keeps asking.
No my friend, thats the question you brought up. I would to know if you believe that a demon just leave at salvation??? Your three questions don't address this issue.
< Message edited by sledmt -- 11/20/2008 2:47:43 PM >
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 2:55:19 PM
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jerowhy
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One must fight to break free from strongholds by The Spirit of God and Prayer; the Prophets speak: If I should choose You as a Son. A Son remains in the House forever; a slave has no permanent place. One must overcome to be counted among those found worthy to Jesus (Holy to The Lord) to be pledged as Sons (Elohim or Children of God). To those who overcome I Will give the gift of eternal possessions.
The parable of the field is that the cares of the world or other things make some of the trees choked out to unfruitful for the Garden and God will allow some time fallow, however the flood will sneak up eventually and kill them out to Judgment, instead. God is patient and Loving, but there is a time for everything this is the wheat and the tares parable; that regardless of the pomp and circumstance of outward justifications by mere wrote Gospel 'wisdom' of Egyptian or Greko Gnosticism (knowledge puffs up, God edifies in The Truth of His Person and Works). For greeks and romans thought 'study of' or ology rather than The Logos.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
earthless - you know I have always maintained that a believer CAN be demonized.
I know - I was for many years as a young believer.
Can you please explain what you mean by demonized? As in oppressed and influenced by the demonic or inhabited by the demonic?
And whenever sled and you can get to my two questions, please do.
< Message edited by jerowhy -- 11/20/2008 3:01:35 PM >
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 2:57:15 PM
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sledmt
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Show us where you are going with your three questions: I believe know, but outline it for us.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 3:01:34 PM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
Joined: 8/25/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jerowhy
One must fight to break free from strongholds by The Spirit of God and Prayer; the Prophets speak: If I should choose You as a Son. A Son remains in the House forever; a slave has no permanent place. One must overcome to be counted among those found worthy to Jesus (Holy to The Lord) to be pledged as Sons (Elohim or Children of God). To those who overcome I Will give the gift of eternal possessions.
Could you explain your thought a little more.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 3:07:55 PM
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jerowhy
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We fight to break free of slavery to the devil's kingdom, and The Lord fights for us also. One must not lean only on one's own understandings for they will fail; but on The Lord instead who is Faithful and Just (merciful is Just for Jesus desires Mercy) to forgive Us our sins and cleanse us after we have suffered a short while. For while were still sinners, Christ died for Us. The Potter places The Good Wine in The New Inner Man Vessel to all who seek, ask, and knock.
Let us ask for spiritual things; clothes and armour (The Lord's Armoury is Great!) real food, possessions and Great Spiritual Treasures that remain. The Prophet Prophesied a Turban dress for the High Priest at Jerusalem. If the Lord has made all that we can perceive with natural eyes, how much more can We in Christ ask from Him Those things of The Spirit for God is Spirit? Our intention needs to be for Kingdom helps and works for others is The Apostle John regarding The Will of God concerning selfishness to spend for Us only.
Since God Provides all things, how much more has he given to Us in the spiritual?
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: jerowhy
One must fight to break free from strongholds by The Spirit of God and Prayer; the Prophets speak: If I should choose You as a Son. A Son remains in the House forever; a slave has no permanent place. One must overcome to be counted among those found worthy to Jesus (Holy to The Lord) to be pledged as Sons (Elohim or Children of God). To those who overcome I Will give the gift of eternal possessions.
Could you explain your thought a little more.
< Message edited by jerowhy -- 11/20/2008 3:16:44 PM >
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 4:26:58 PM
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sledmt
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Good post
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 6:33:50 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6348
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Show us where you are going with your three questions: I believe know, but outline it for us.
This is where I am going - salvation comes by hearing the Word of God - the Holy Spirit is the One that convicts a person of their sin. A person either accepts the conviction or rejects the conviction (God's grace).
The Bible gives some examples of people being possessed or influenced by demons.
From these we can find some symptoms of demonic influence as well as gain insights as to how a demon possesses someone. Here are some of biblical passages: Matthew 9:32-33; 12:22; 17:18; Mark 5:1-20; 7:26-30; Luke 4:33-36; Luke 22:3; Acts 16:16-18.
In some of these passages, the demon possession causes physical ailments, such as inability to speak, epileptic symptoms, blindness, etc.
In other cases, it causes the individual to do evil, Judas being the main example. In Acts 16:16-18 the spirit apparently gives a slave girl some ability to know things beyond her own learning.
In the case of the demoniac of the Gadarenes who was possessed by a multitude of demons, he had superhuman strength, went around naked, and lived among the tombstones.
King Saul, after rebelling against the LORD, was allowed to be troubled by an evil spirit (1 Samuel 16:14-15; 18:10-11; 19:9-10) with the apparent effect of a depressed mood and an increased desire and readiness to kill David.
Thus, there is a wide variety of possible symptoms of demon possession, such as a physical impairment that cannot be attributed to an actual physiological problem, personality changes such as major depression or uncharacteristic aggression, supernatural strength, a disregard for modesty or “normal” social interaction, and perhaps the ability to share information that one has no natural way of knowing.
It is important to note that nearly all, if not all, of these characteristics may have other explanations, so it is important not to label every depressed person or epileptic individual as demon possessed.
On the other hand, I think that in our western culture, we probably don’t take Satanic involvement in people’s lives seriously enough.
In addition to these physical or emotional distinctions, one can also look at spiritual attributes as showing demonic influence.
These may include a refusal to forgive (2 Corinthians 2:10-11) and the belief in and spread of false doctrine, especially concerning Jesus Christ and His atoning work (2 Corinthians 11:3-4,13-15; 1 Timothy 4:1-5; 1 John 4:1-3).
Concerning the involvement of demons in the lives of Christians, the apostle Peter is an illustration of the fact that a believer can be INFLUENCED by the devil (Matthew 16:23).
Some refer to Christians who are under a STRONG demonic influence as being “demonized,” but never is there an example in Scripture of a believer in Christ being POSSESSED by a demon, and most theologians believe that a Christian CANNOT be possessed because he has the Holy Spirit abiding within (2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; 1 Corinthians 6:19).
We are not told exactly how one opens himself up for possession. If Judas’ case is representative, he opened his heart to evil (in his case by his greed - John 12:6).
So it may be possible that if one allows his heart to be ruled by some habitual sin...it becomes an invitation for a demon to enter in.
From missionary experiences, demon possession also seems to be related to the worship of heathen idols and the possession of occult materials.
Scripture repeatedly relates idol worship with the actual worship of demons (Leviticus 17:7; Deuteronomy 32:17; Psalm 106:37; 1 Corinthians 10:20), so it should not be surprising that involvement with those religions and practices associated with those religions could lead to demon possession.
Thus, it is my belief based on the above Scriptural passages as well as some of the experiences of missionaries that many people open their lives up to demon involvement through the embracing of some sin or through cultic involvement (both knowingly and unknowingly).
Examples may include immorality; drug/alcohol abuse...as these alter one’s state of consciousness; rebellion; bitterness; transcendental meditation. In our western culture, we see an increase of eastern religious teachings under the guise of the new age movement.
There is something that must not be forgotten. Satan and his evil host cannot do anything the Lord does not allow them to do (Job 1,2).
And this being the case, Satan, thinking he is accomplishing his own purposes, is actually accomplishing God’s good purposes...even as in the case of Judas’ betrayal.
Some people develop an unhealthy fascination with the occult and demonic activity. This is unwise and unbiblical. If we pursue God with our lives and are clothing ourselves with His armor and relying upon His strength (not our own) (Ephesians 6:10-18), we have nothing to fear from the evil ones, for God rules over all!
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/20/2008 7:17:40 PM
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OleFitzHi
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Well said and I agree totally.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/21/2008 3:19:58 AM
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sledmt
Posts: 321
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earthless,
Interesting post. I don't see how this explain (if or not) a demon can leave a person at the moment of salvation.
Like people have said before, the word demon-possessed is a poor translation from the Greek. Not to mention, there are verse in the Gospel that don't use demon-possessed, but just demon.
What I find even more interesting is that about everywhere where Christ is healing people, he is also casting out demons. They seem to go hand and foot.
To be honest, if Christ would have just cast a demon out once or twice, we probably could leave this for "just those special occasions". But, we see him doing this quite regular. Many were healed and many demons were casted out. That make me wonder, how many people do we meet on the street that have some physical sickness that is caused by a demon.
This would be a interesting study, take all the people that are taking drugs for different mental problems, and take them off drugs, and see if over time that we would start seeing some of those signs of "demon-possession" recorded in the Gospel.
Last but not least, The Lord commanded us to cast out demons.
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