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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/18/2008 8:07:25 PM
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sledmt
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I believe your using Luke 11:21-22 incorrectly.
This is verse is talking about Christ casting a demon out of a man. It is saying that Christ defeat the "strong man" and cast him out. Don't take the verse out of context. Look at the flow of the Word.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/18/2008 9:27:55 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
sled,
A demon cannot possess where the Holy Spirit is. You keep wanting to know what happens during salvation - well a simple starting point is to know what brings about salvation. Hearing the Word, the conviction of the Holy Spirit, do you agree?
I agree with your statement, but it doesn't say that the demon just leave.
A Christian is indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9-11; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 6:19), it would seem extremely unlikely that the Holy Spirit would allow a demon to possess the same person He is indwelling.
There is a sharp difference between being possessed by a demon, and being oppressed/influenced by a demon.
Demon possession involves a demon having direct control over the thoughts and/or actions of a person (Luke 4:33-35; 8:27-33; Matthew 17:14-18).
Demon oppression/influence involves a demon or demons attacking a person spiritually and/or encouraging said person into sinful behavior (1 Peter 5:8-9; James 4:7).
You will notice that in all the New Testament passages dealing with spiritual warfare, we are never told to cast a demon out of a believer (Ephesians 6:10-18).
We are told to resist the devil (1 Peter 5:8-9; James 4:7), not to cast him out.
It is unthinkable that God would allow one of His children, whom He purchased with the blood of Christ (1 Peter 1:18-19) and made into a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17) to be possessed and controlled by a demon.
Yes, as believers, we wage warfare with Satan and his demons, but not from within ourselves. 1 John 4:4 declares, “You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the One who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.”
Who is the One in us? The Holy Spirit.
Who is the one in the world?
Satan and his demons.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/18/2008 9:47:40 PM
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sledmt
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Well, I thinking that both are passionate about our position, both claiming that we are basing that on the Word. Probably neither of us is going to change. That being said, I'm going to drop this.
What concern me is: Why is it that most Conservative church don't follow the command of Christ to cast out demons as he modeled. Is that because they believe that the demon just leave at salvation? I don't know.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/18/2008 9:54:38 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Well, I thinking that both are passionate about our position, both claiming that we are basing that on the Word.
Yes, we both claimed our position is based on the Word. But you have yet to post any Scripture that shows a demon being cast out of a believer. Because there isn't any.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Probably neither of us is going to change.
My belief won't change unless the Word changes. And that will never ever happen.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
That being said, I'm going to drop this.
Please let me know if you have any other questions. I try to visit these boards daily.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
What concern me is: Why is it that most Conservative church don't follow the command of Christ to cast out demons as he modeled. Is that because they believe that the demon just leave at salvation? I don't know.
You would have to ask a leader in a "conservative" church.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/18/2008 10:04:01 PM
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sledmt
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Since the demon doesn't leave at salvation, then there is either alot of unsaved people in church like Grace to You and other like it, or there is alot of demon-possessed christian walking around.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/19/2008 12:46:12 AM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Since the demon doesn't leave at salvation, then there is either alot of unsaved people in church
Well, I wouldn't doubt this....
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/19/2008 1:07:49 AM
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sledmt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Since the demon doesn't leave at salvation, then there is either alot of unsaved people in church
Well, I wouldn't doubt this....
That concern me. I don't want to be responsible for people ending up in hell for my lack of spiritual maturity and not moving in deliverance.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/19/2008 8:11:28 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Since the demon doesn't leave at salvation, then there is either alot of unsaved people in church
Well, I wouldn't doubt this....
That concern me. I don't want to be responsible for people ending up in hell for my lack of spiritual maturity and not moving in deliverance.
A lot of people thinking they are saved because of tradition, their parent's coat tails, or because a plethora of other reasons doesn't shock anyone.
What we need to focus on is preaching the Word - the Holy Spirit is the One that convicts a person unto salvation, not the casting out of demons.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/19/2008 1:33:44 PM
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DaveW
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earthless - that position completely ignores those unbelievers who are demonized.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/19/2008 1:35:41 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
earthless - that position completely ignores those unbelievers who are demonized.
The question was whether or not a born-again believer can be demon possessed. It was not about the unsaved, those dead in their sin.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/19/2008 2:22:47 PM
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themoodyexperience
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
There is a sharp difference between being possessed by a demon, and being oppressed/influenced by a demon.
I believe that is a distinction that some in the church don't want to accept, especially the 'demon under every doily' crowd.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/19/2008 3:17:25 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthlessquote:
earthless - that position completely ignores those unbelievers who are demonized. The question was whether or not a born-again believer can be demon possessed. It was not about the unsaved, those dead in their sin. You did not answer about the person who is demonized and then repents - becoming saved. Are you implying that at that moment he undergoes this:
Mar 9:20 And they brought the boy to him. And when the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy, and he fell on the ground and rolled about, foaming at the mouth.
I see this frequently happening in the gospels when demons are confronted. I see of absolutely NO instance of them coming out without being specifically confronted.
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Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/19/2008 3:18:36 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
There is a sharp difference between being possessed by a demon, and being oppressed/influenced by a demon. Scripture please??!!
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Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/19/2008 3:22:49 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
There is a sharp difference between being possessed by a demon, and being oppressed/influenced by a demon. Scripture please??!!
Post #52 of this thread, just a few above your posts.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/19/2008 3:23:51 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
You did not answer about the person who is demonized and then repents - becoming saved.
What brings about repentance? Hearing the Word - the conviction of sin, correct? Who brings about that conviction?
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/19/2008 3:33:02 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthlessquote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
You did not answer about the person who is demonized and then repents - becoming saved. What brings about repentance? Hearing the Word - the conviction of sin, correct? Who brings about that conviction?
Yes of course. That still does not deal with the demon.
_____________________________
Avatar is DW holding Saphira at her first birthday party and myself holding Louvena at 30 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/19/2008 3:34:16 PM
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sledmt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
There is a sharp difference between being possessed by a demon, and being oppressed/influenced by a demon. Scripture please??!!
Post #52 of this thread, just a few above your posts.
I'm not only one that see a problem with your thinking. Your verses in post 52 don't address the problem that DaveW mentioned in his last post.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/19/2008 3:36:18 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthlessquote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
You did not answer about the person who is demonized and then repents - becoming saved. What brings about repentance? Hearing the Word - the conviction of sin, correct? Who brings about that conviction?
Yes of course. That still does not deal with the demon.
A person possessed by a demon is controlled by the demon(s). Do you agree?
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/19/2008 4:26:56 PM
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sledmt
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Your right, iron shapens iron. True.
Here the question that I believe DaveW has and likewise I do.
A person that needs a demon cast off cames to a church service.
The person need go forward for an altar call and recieve Christ as his Savior.
The question: when or where did the demon go at the moment of salvation? Still in believer? Left at salvation? Questions to need to be answered.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/19/2008 4:30:57 PM
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sledmt
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Earthless, you mentioned that we should just preach the full Gospel eariler, but I really wonder if we are preaching the full Gospel. Is not casting out demons part of the Gospel? I believe that it is. I'm personally seeking to be aware of this so that if the Lord would call be to do this, I ready to be moved by the Spirit.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/19/2008 4:49:01 PM
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sledmt
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Earthless,
I'll ask the question directly:
Do believe that someone with a demon that should be cast out, that comes to salvation in the Christ, does the demon leave at salvation without being cast out by another believer?
Or
Did this person not really get saved?
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/19/2008 6:08:27 PM
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earthless
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Sincerely speaking - if the following questions I asked both Dave and you are answered.. your own question becomes a lot more clearer:
What brings about repentance? Hearing the Word - the conviction of sin, correct?
Who brings about that conviction?
A person possessed by a demon is controlled by the demon(s). Do you agree?
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/19/2008 8:09:07 PM
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OleFitzHi
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I disagree here. The assumption is not that demons leave at the moment of salvation.
The assumption is that most people are not demon-possessed. Those that are demon-possessed are not able to accept Christ.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Here is my concern with this whole subject.
Christ told us to go cast out demons. Not that we make a big deal out of it, but with the same passion that we should proclaim the Gospel, we should also applies this to casting out demons.
But the problem with alot of Conservative churchs is that they somehow believe that the demon just leave a salvation. So either there is alot of people not saved or there is alot of people saved but still carrying a demon. The Word really only give us the two choices. Either way the church has dropped the ball concerning this important matter.
If the demon leave at salvation was true, why did Christ and discpiles go around casting out demons. If the demon would just leave at salvation, it seem like the Lord was really just wasting him time??? HUH It says in at less several places, that many demons were cast out. Was that just for then??? Was that for just those ingortant people. Backwater people.
I don't think so, I believe it is for today. We need to walk in decernment and word of knowledge to see what the Lord sees.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/19/2008 8:26:15 PM
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jerowhy
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Brother earthless, was Judas having only a demon after making a decision to partake in the plot to kill Christ for mammon? Wasn't the devil, himself, present after Jesus delivered him over for making such a plan? Judas was one of the original Apostles.
Therefore, if we allow footholds for satan to master us aren't we also subject to the service of those powers instead? Not that we dont' fall in many ways, but that some sins are bad enough to remove someone at Jesus' own discretion.
Therefore, maybe at those moments are words and actions performed that may be under the infulence of the demon powers. This is called fighting the Good fight. Anyone who speaks evil and lies is speaking devil out of the darkness within them.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Sincerely speaking - if the following questions I asked both Dave and you are answered.. your own question becomes a lot more clearer:
What brings about repentance? Hearing the Word - the conviction of sin, correct?
Who brings about that conviction?
A person possessed by a demon is controlled by the demon(s). Do you agree?
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