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Signs/Wonders - 11/13/2008 2:43:43 PM
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Child4Jesus
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Are we to be seeking them?
Luke 11:29 (New King James Version)
29 And while the crowds were thickly gathered together, He began to say, “This is an evil generation. It seeks a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah the prophet.
We see in scripture that there was some people who said they would only believe if Jesus showed them a sign.
John 6:30
30 So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
I know people who seriously believe that if no sign happens in a church service there is something wrong there. The people are stifling the Holy Spirit.
Luke 11:16
6 Others, to test Him, were demanding of Him a sign from heaven.
Are we testing God when we want to see a sign? Are we subconsciously saying a won't believe until I see a sign or only if I see a sign I will believe more? We have people that carve it so much that people barking like dogs, acting like animals and such is seen a move of the Holy Spirit. We have revival services, healing services and prophetic meetings seeking a sign.
Why can't we just fall to our knees, lay on the ground, simply sit up on your bed and pray to God?
Why can't we just read the Bible and we what God wants on us?
Please for those who seek signs and wonders please tell us why.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/13/2008 2:46:07 PM
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1love1God1way
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1 Corinthians 1
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For since in the wisdom of God the world did not come to know God through wisdom, it was the will of God through the foolishness of the proclamation to save those who have faith.
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For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
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but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,
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but to those who are called, Jews and Greeks alike, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/13/2008 3:44:00 PM
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Brock.L
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Because God calls us to do more than what you have just said. We are not to become stagnet in our walk with Him, and I dont have to ask for a sign, Im shown in many ways.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/13/2008 4:09:47 PM
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Child4Jesus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Brock.L
Because God calls us to do more than what you have just said. We are not to become stagnant in our walk with Him, and I don't have to ask for a sign, I'm shown in many ways.
What is the more? The things I said wasn't an exhaustive list. The more is walking the talk. Spreading the Gospel every opportunity we get. I agree we are not to become stagnant. We are to be growing closer to God and farther from the world. However we are not to be seeking to see signs and wonders.
< Message edited by Child4Jesus -- 11/13/2008 5:10:26 PM >
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/13/2008 6:57:47 PM
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prophet
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Ask for signs and it will make you wonder all the more.....
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/13/2008 8:07:21 PM
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themoodyexperience
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In my opinion, the chasing of signs and wonders is exactly what caused Lakeland and caused it to fail. If all you can talk about is anointing and all you can do is say 'Bam' and kick people in the stomach, then you're bound to fall to the wayside like the sowers seed. Hopefully, Todd will see what went wrong and turn from it.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/14/2008 3:14:47 PM
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sledmt
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To answer that question, we need to answer the basic question of why Christ performed signs and wonders in the first place. We need to understand the reasons that Christ healed, set people free and other signs.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/14/2008 7:51:59 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
To answer that question, we need to answer the basic question of why Christ performed signs and wonders in the first place. We need to understand the reasons that Christ healed, set people free and other signs.
To confirm He is who Scripture foretold would come. But now that we have the entire Word of God and His perfect sacrifice on the cross.. the question then really takes on a meaning for the generation today that seeks after signs and wonders.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/14/2008 8:00:52 PM
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themoodyexperience
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
To answer that question, we need to answer the basic question of why Christ performed signs and wonders in the first place. We need to understand the reasons that Christ healed, set people free and other signs.
To confirm He is who Scripture foretold would come. But now that we have the entire Word of God and His perfect sacrifice on the cross.. the question then really takes on a meaning for the generation today that seeks after signs and wonders.
I think the church feels it needs shazam and wow-wee to draw people in. Most of this is done through seeker sensitivity but don't discount fake signs and wonders.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/14/2008 8:02:07 PM
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earthless
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What we ALL need more of is genuine biblical Christianity. But that is not good enough for some people.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/15/2008 4:59:42 AM
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sledmt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
What we ALL need more of is genuine biblical Christianity. But that is not good enough for some people.
You are right. We need genuine Christianity as Christ modeled for us and commanded us to follow. Healing the sick, raising the dead, casting out demons, while preaching the word of God.
Preaching the word of God in power as Christ and the 12 disclipes modeled for us.
The signs and wonders are not what we seek, but often manifest as sign posts of the man of God desiring to follow in the footsteps of his master and King.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/15/2008 8:27:06 AM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
What we ALL need more of is genuine biblical Christianity. But that is not good enough for some people.
You are right. We need genuine Christianity as Christ modeled for us and commanded us to follow. Healing the sick, raising the dead, casting out demons, while preaching the word of God.
Preaching the word of God in power as Christ and the 12 disclipes modeled for us.
The signs and wonders are not what we seek, but often manifest as sign posts of the man of God desiring to follow in the footsteps of his master and King.
And when there is a lot of hoopla (i.e. Lakeland) what does manifest are counterfeit revivals. Which is why everything needs to be tested in light of Scripture.
Miracles are just that, miracles. Not something we can order God to do, He does them when He pleases and wills.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/15/2008 3:34:52 PM
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sledmt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
What we ALL need more of is genuine biblical Christianity. But that is not good enough for some people.
You are right. We need genuine Christianity as Christ modeled for us and commanded us to follow. Healing the sick, raising the dead, casting out demons, while preaching the word of God.
Preaching the word of God in power as Christ and the 12 disclipes modeled for us.
The signs and wonders are not what we seek, but often manifest as sign posts of the man of God desiring to follow in the footsteps of his master and King.
And when there is a lot of hoopla (i.e. Lakeland) what does manifest are counterfeit revivals. Which is why everything needs to be tested in light of Scripture.
Miracles are just that, miracles. Not something we can order God to do, He does them when He pleases and wills.
So according to your doctrine, the Lord doesn't heal, deliver (cast out demon) everyone. Some Christian must learn to suffer with the thorn in the flesh.
I agree with you, we must test any church in the light of the Word. Wither that church seems to move in a extreme place or if the church doesn't seem to move anything. Both churchs need to be compared against the word of God to see where the church is lacking.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/15/2008 6:08:47 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
So according to your doctrine, the Lord doesn't heal, deliver (cast out demon) everyone. Some Christian must learn to suffer with the thorn in the flesh.
Friend, according to the Bible God does indeed still heal today and demons are cast out.
But nowhere in Scripture is absolute healing and financial wealth promised to every single believer in this earthly life.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
I agree with you, we must test any church in the light of the Word. Wither that church seems to move in a extreme place or if the church doesn't seem to move anything. Both churchs need to be compared against the word of God to see where the church is lacking.
Amen.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/16/2008 7:01:55 AM
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rapturefish
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
Are we to be seeking them?
Luke 11:29 (New King James Version)
29 And while the crowds were thickly gathered together, He began to say, “This is an evil generation. It seeks a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah the prophet.
We see in scripture that there was some people who said they would only believe if Jesus showed them a sign.
John 6:30
30 So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
I know people who seriously believe that if no sign happens in a church service there is something wrong there. The people are stifling the Holy Spirit.
Luke 11:16
6 Others, to test Him, were demanding of Him a sign from heaven.
First, the context of Luke 11:29 ignored. Jesus did not reprove the Jews for seeking the sign but for unrepentant hearts in the face of the obvious. Jesus knew that even if he were to give a sign they would not believe anyway because their hearts were hard. Previously the same Jews had seen Jesus cast the demon out of a man who could not speak, and then the man speaking (11:14). They had seen Him raise a paralytic (5:17-26), heal a man with the withered hand (6:6-11), and do many other miracles, but none of these signs had brought them to believe in Him. The fact that Jesus (and also his followers after him) did all these miracles shows that in no way should signs be considered useless for the kingdom. Rather, the unrepentant hearts of the Jews to deal with their sin were the problem.
The sign of Jonah could refer to a sign (read: miracle) that follows that of Jonah surviving after three days of 'death' in the fish, which would refer to Jesus' death and resurrection, or it could mean Jonah's preaching of repentance to the people of Nineveh leading to a repentant city.
If you want to show from the scriptures that signs are to be eshewed and not seen as evidence of a living God, then I wouldn't use this passage.
quote:
Are we testing God when we want to see a sign? Are we subconsciously saying a won't believe until I see a sign or only if I see a sign I will believe more? We have people that carve it so much that people barking like dogs, acting like animals and such is seen a move of the Holy Spirit. We have revival services, healing services and prophetic meetings seeking a sign.
While it's possible that some of those manifestations may or may not be credible, it's another issue for someone to say they won't believe until they see a sign. Sometimes people who say they won't believe until they see a sign are simply unrepentant and would not repent anyway regardless of the sign, hence the Luke 11:29 verse. But others in the bible are convince of the gospel because of the signs and wonders that accompany it. Paul even says so in 1 Corinthians 4:20 "For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power." He says this because he was being belittled by so-called 'super-apostles' who claimed greater authority and questioned Paul's.
quote:
Why can't we just fall to our knees, lay on the ground, simply sit up on your bed and pray to God?
Why can't we just read the Bible and we what God wants on us?
Please for those who seek signs and wonders please tell us why.
As one who believes in signs and wonders for today, I believe the bible does use signs and wonders to confirm that the gospel is a living one, not just words but a message of power. I'm sure God loves it when people hear the word and simply believe, and I think such people are blessed and commended for it. But even those who need a sign first, they are not reproved for doing so, just that those who don't are more blessed for responding in faith. Consider Thomas, the sceptic of the disciples:
28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.” (John 20:28-29).
And the next verses show us that there is a real place for signs and wonders:
30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. (John 20:30-31).
Also consider these passages in Hebrews:
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. (Hebrews 1:1-2)
along with:
1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, 3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, 4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will. (Hebrews 2:1-4)
Therefore signs and wonders do have a place in terms of the gospel - as a testimony to its truth. Signs and wonders are used and manifested to point to Jesus' work on the cross, the message of salvation.
Now about those animal noises and all that stereotypical imagery commonly associated with some churches, I don't want you to be dismissive of them just because they seem weird and excessive - but the bible does support signs and wonders, along with supernatural spiritual gifts, for today. The only problem is, are people seeking the signs or seeking confirmation of the message of the gospel? If the latter, then there is no problem. Seeking signs for their own sake is a form of idolatry however, and we need to ensure we aren't falling into that error.
As Christians we should expect miracles to be for today, and that signs and wonders be for today. The bible says it, and so we believe it. Just know their place, and to put the gospel first, and let the miraculous point to the message, rather than dismissing the power of God that does so.
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-- rapturefish --
One happy barramundi  [<><]
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/16/2008 8:12:13 AM
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earthless
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Acting like beasts, etc.. is not a genuine move of the Holy Spirit in the sense that it is good. The only times God makes people act like animals is as a form of punishment.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/16/2008 1:00:22 PM
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lw9
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quote:
rapturefish: Now about those animal noises and all that stereotypical imagery commonly associated with some churches, I don't want you to be dismissive of them just because they seem weird and excessive - but the bible does support signs and wonders, along with supernatural spiritual gifts, for today.
Isa 29:9 Be delayed and wait. Blind yourselves and be blind. They become drunk, but not with wine; They stagger, but not with strong drink. 10 For the Lord has poured over you a spirit of deep sleep, He has shut your eyes, the prophets; And He has covered your heads, the seers. 11 And the entire vision shall be to you like the words of a sealed book, which when they give it to the one who is literate, saying, "Please read this," he will say, " I cannot, for it is sealed."
Jer 51:37 And Babylon will become a heap of ruins, a haunt of jackals, An object of horror and hissing, without inhabitants. 38 They will roar together like young lions, They will growl like lions' clubs. 39 When they become heated up, I shall serve them their banquet and make them drunk, that they may become jubilant and may sleep a perpetual sleep and not wake up," declares the Lord. 40 "And I shall bring them down like lambs to the slaughter, like rams together with male goats."
Beware people. Animal noises and animal behaviors, drunk in the spirit, etc. are nowhere mentioned as spiritual gifts or true signs and wonders in scripture. The only description you will find of them is as a judgment and condemnation.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/17/2008 3:11:45 PM
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sledmt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
So according to your doctrine, the Lord doesn't heal, deliver (cast out demon) everyone. Some Christian must learn to suffer with the thorn in the flesh.
Friend, according to the Bible God does indeed still heal today and demons are cast out.
But nowhere in Scripture is absolute healing and financial wealth promised to every single believer in this earthly life.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
I agree with you, we must test any church in the light of the Word. Wither that church seems to move in a extreme place or if the church doesn't seem to move anything. Both churchs need to be compared against the word of God to see where the church is lacking.
Amen.
I see that you believe in casting out demons. Awesome. So, who in your church does this. Who in your church walks in the authority of Christ and performs this? Your pastor? You?
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/17/2008 5:57:19 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
I see that you believe in casting out demons. Awesome. So, who in your church does this. Who in your church walks in the authority of Christ and performs this? Your pastor? You?
Every believer ought to be able to pray for someone who is demon possessed. But it needs to be done with caution in that not just anyone should go around thinking they have some special power to do so - it is because of Jesus that we can even pray for someone that is possessed.
There is something that must not be forgotten. Satan and his evil host cannot do anything the Lord does not allow them to do (Job 1,2).
And this being the case, Satan, thinking he is accomplishing his own purposes, is actually accomplishing God’s good purposes...even as in the case of Judas’ betrayal. Some people develop an unhealthy fascination with the occult and demonic activity.
This is unwise and unbiblical. If we pursue God with our lives and are clothing ourselves with His armor and relying upon His strength (not our own) (Ephesians 6:10-18), we have nothing to fear from the evil ones, for God rules over all!
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/17/2008 7:00:24 PM
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sledmt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
I see that you believe in casting out demons. Awesome. So, who in your church does this. Who in your church walks in the authority of Christ and performs this? Your pastor? You?
Every believer ought to be able to pray for someone who is demon possessed. But it needs to be done with caution in that not just anyone should go around thinking they have some special power to do so - it is because of Jesus that we can even pray for someone that is possessed.
Every believer ought. But in reality most believers don't understand deliverance or move in it. So then most Christians never experience any victory in their life.
So anyways, have you personally casted any demons out of a person.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/17/2008 7:32:24 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Every believer ought. But in reality most believers don't understand deliverance or move in it. So then most Christians never experience any victory in their life.
The deliverance ministries I have come across adhere to false teachings (err on the core essentials) and or see demons in anything and everything.. from a can of Pepsi, to a pencil. Sort of the 'Pigs in a Parlor' type crowd.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
So anyways, have you personally casted any demons out of a person.
Any good I have ever done as a Christian can only be attributed to God, to His grace and provision.
To answer your question - have I ever been in a situation where a person is demon possessed and we have prayed for such person? Yes.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/17/2008 7:49:11 PM
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sledmt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
Every believer ought. But in reality most believers don't understand deliverance or move in it. So then most Christians never experience any victory in their life.
The deliverance ministries I have come across adhere to false teachings (err on the core essentials) and or see demons in anything and everything.. from a can of Pepsi, to a pencil. Sort of the 'Pigs in a Parlor' type crowd.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sledmt
So anyways, have you personally casted any demons out of a person.
Any good I have ever done as a Christian can only be attributed to God, to His grace and provision.
To answer your question - have I ever been in a situation where a person is demon possessed and we have prayed for such person? Yes.
Thats good. More believers should walk in the authority of the Holy Spirit and cast demons when the need arises. I believe more people would healed from sickness, mental illness if the church would only realize the need for deliverance from evil spirits. I have often wondered, if about 25 percent of the people that Christ interacted with in the Gospel needed a demon cast out, is the church as a whole missing alot and Christians are living with bondage that they should not have to.
Just think about it:
1000 members in a church.
250 would have been delivered from demons in Christ day. Today what happens????? Kinda sad. On top of this, how many of the 250 carry physical sickness in their bodies because of this demon possession. Then some of these 250 are lead to believe that it God will that they have the sickness. How sad.
The churchs I know definely don't operate in this at all.
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/17/2008 8:03:01 PM
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earthless
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sledmt,
Do you believe born-again believers can be demon possessed?
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RE: Signs/Wonders - 11/17/2008 8:21:42 PM
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sledmt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
sledmt,
Do you believe born-again believers can be demon possessed?
To answer your question, I'll ask question.
I attended a college in Pensacola called Pensacola Christian College. This college did believe in casting out demons. So here the question:
There was about 5000 students in the college. So according to the model Christ outline for us (give or take a little), around 1500 students would recieved deliverance from a evil spirit. But here the problem, do you think about of those 1500 recieved deliverance from an evil spirit just before salvation. Did some believer cast the evil spirit out prior to salvation? I never heard any testomonty from any of the students when I was there in college. So where does this leave us. 1500 students that could have had spirit prior to salvation. What have to the demons. Just leave at salvation??? Yet right.
let's take this a little farther, this pattern I saw at a friend church in Bozeman. Once again, they don't pratice deliverance in form like modeled in the Bible. So what do the demons in people in a church that does not practice any form of casting out demons. Just leave???
This church was around 2000 members. Thats about 500 members that could have had a demon prior to salvation. So when those 500 became believers, where did the demons go??? No one in the church was casting the demons out of the believers when they were getting saved. So if know one was casting out demons, where are the demons????
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