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RE: The Altar Call - 11/22/2008 5:35:38 PM
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jn1010lf
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Hello hild4Jesus
So, the alter call is to make sure people go to heaven, in other words that they get their fire insurance.
An alter call is used for many other purposes; salvation, healing, deliverance, etc.
Besides, many times the Holy Spirit will move on a person without an alter call. I was saved that way. In the middle of a service, the Lord invited me to accept Him. I did. An alter call was given and I burst forth to tell what had happened.
So, it's the Holy Spirit that does the work, not the alter call.
Incidently, did Jesus ever have an alter call?
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/23/2008 8:07:07 AM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
Incidently, did Jesus ever have an alter call?
Two come to mind. In John 1, two of John the Baptist's disciples approached our Lord and asked, "Rabbi, where do you live?" and He replied, "Come and see." He invited a couple of people he apparently already knew to come and have dinner, since they suddenly saw a side of Jesus that they'd never noticed before.
After the miraculous catch of fish, Jesus told Peter, "Follow me, and I will make you a fisher of men."
The idea of "come forward and 'get saved' " is alien to Scripture. The disciples were invited to follow Jesus, to get a piece of the action, to get involved in an ongoing project that would change their lives forever.
_____________________________
Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/27/2008 12:12:13 AM
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Sammy_S
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"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Matthew 7:21.
The sinners prayer is at worst Heresy.Christ,the apostles and the early Church fathers were able to save men by the work of the Holy spirit(through preaching) and didn't need the so called "Sinners prayer"to help them.Those who use this false method simply fail to understand what true Repentance means.The fact that I have encountered many unbelievers who thought themselves to be saved simply because a preacher who should have been studying his bible instead of preaching told them to repeat a prayer.
Charles Finney started/popularized the alter call/sinners prayer and after seeing the fruits he created he denounced it.
Preachers who use the sinners prayer don't understand true repentance and they lack faith in God in salvation for thinking that they must do anything else other than to preach the Gospel of Christ.
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/27/2008 12:52:53 AM
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prophet
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the altar call is a "welcome to the club" thing.
Fruits takes tiem and toil, doesnt happen over nite.....thats discipleship.
Scriptures teaches discipleship, not membership
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/29/2008 9:19:43 AM
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conan
Posts: 109
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jn1010lf
Hello hild4Jesus
So, the alter call is to make sure people go to heaven, in other words that they get their fire insurance.
An alter call is used for many other purposes; salvation, healing, deliverance, etc.
Besides, many times the Holy Spirit will move on a person without an alter call. I was saved that way. In the middle of a service, the Lord invited me to accept Him. I did. An alter call was given and I burst forth to tell what had happened.
So, it's the Holy Spirit that does the work, not the alter call.
Incidently, did Jesus ever have an alter call?
I think He did. He called people publibly. i.e. "Come to Me all that are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest" ect.
I am not a fan of how alter calls are sometimes conducted. Begging poeple down the isle and so forth. Jesus does not stand at the door and beg ...he knocks. I think many pastors would do well to give an invatation (opportunity to respond to the wooing of the Spirit) and get out of the way.
Going to heaven is like walking on water ...can't do it with out Christ. Peter tried and sank in the process ...but said the best prayer I know ..."Save me Lord." He didn't really have time for much more, but Jesus knew his heart. Like the thief on the cross, God knows if your heart is contrite with or without the sinners prayer.
I was a alter call counselor for years at my church. I would get handed someone who supposedly said the sinners prayer and had the task of dertermining if what they did was real or not. If not ...I would then clarify the gospel and so forth (I don't do it anymore). When counseling I'd always ask them why they came forward and what decision they made. At least 70% of people had reasons like ...marital problems, finaces, lost job, pastor told me to and so forth. Rarely would one say they asked Jesus to save them or they came for salvation.
I am not suggesting God doesn't speak through the sinners prayer ...I mean He spoke through a donkey. But my point is that I don't see the sinners prayer as particularly helpful. In fact I think alot of people are duped into believing that they can smoke the devil's cigarettes and blow the smoke in God's face ...and when they are ready, say the sinner's prayer.
Well ...not according to John 6.
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/29/2008 10:16:05 AM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
But my point is that I don't see the sinners prayer as particularly helpful.
In fact, in Billy Graham's "crusades," 96% of the time this technique merely vaccinated people against the gospel.
_____________________________
Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/29/2008 10:56:01 AM
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conan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
quote:
But my point is that I don't see the sinners prayer as particularly helpful.
In fact, in Billy Graham's "crusades," 96% of the time this technique merely vaccinated people against the gospel.
But it sure makes for good television. Just think, what if people really were coming to Christ in droves ... one would think that it would impact our culture for the better. However, I have yet to see the fruit of all the converts modern evangelist are winning.
The early church was commited to teaching. I am persuaded that if we (the church) would place a higher premuim on teaching/discipleship, then the saints would be better equipped to do the work of the ministry (Eph 4) and our services could be filled with worship and bible teaching.
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/29/2008 4:32:40 PM
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colliefan
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The early church refused to let individuals be baptised and take communion until they had been fully catechised.
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/29/2008 4:34:42 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
The early church refused to let individuals be baptised and take communion until they had been fully catechised.
Do you have any evidence for this?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/29/2008 5:21:59 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
The early church refused to let individuals be baptised and take communion until they had been fully catechised.
Do you have any evidence for this?
The scriptural evidence actually points in the opposite direction.
Study Acts chapter 2 to see what "the early church" ( indeed, the first church) did under the direction of the Holy Spirit through the apostles. Water baptism was immediately after conversion, and "the breaking of bread" (the Lord's Supper) followed immediately after that. At the same time, doctrine, fellowship and prayers were all integral to the gathering of believers. And there was great power in the church.
"Catechumens" (who are catechised) came much later, after the pattern of the true early church had been corrupted by human ideas and traditions, including the institution of monks, nuns, priests and catechumens.
As to those who sneer at so-called altar calls, you are reminded that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself gave an "altar call" when on the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles which occurred just before His crucifixion, He cried (by implication with a loud voice) inviting sinners to come to Him. Note what is stated in John 7:37,38:
"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried saying, If any man thirst let him come unto me and drink. He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water".
This was clearly a public invitation within the Temple at Jerusalem (where there was a literal brazen altar of sacrifice) to come to Christ and believe on Him. And this is no different than an evangelist urging sinners to come to Christ and believe on Him and be saved.
Clearly the word "altar" today is misnomer, since the Cross was the final altar and Christ was the final Lamb of God. But if we are prepared to disregard the shell and look for the substance, it is the solemn duty of every evangelist to preach the Gospel and then invite sinners to the Savior. You can call it what you will.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/29/2008 6:08:57 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 512
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
The early church refused to let individuals be baptised and take communion until they had been fully catechised.
Do you have any evidence for this?
The scriptural evidence actually points in the opposite direction.
Study Acts chapter 2 to see what "the early church" ( indeed, the first church) did under the direction of the Holy Spirit through the apostles. Water baptism was immediately after conversion, and "the breaking of bread" (the Lord's Supper) followed immediately after that. At the same time, doctrine, fellowship and prayers were all integral to the gathering of believers. And there was great power in the church.
"Catechumens" (who are catechised) came much later, after the pattern of the true early church had been corrupted by human ideas and traditions, including the institution of monks, nuns, priests and catechumens.
As to those who sneer at so-called altar calls, you are reminded that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself gave an "altar call" when on the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles which occurred just before His crucifixion, He cried (by implication with a loud voice) inviting sinners to come to Him. Note what is stated in John 7:37,38:
"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried saying, If any man thirst let him come unto me and drink. He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water".
This was clearly a public invitation within the Temple at Jerusalem (where there was a literal brazen altar of sacrifice) to come to Christ and believe on Him. And this is no different than an evangelist urging sinners to come to Christ and believe on Him and be saved.
Clearly the word "altar" today is misnomer, since the Cross was the final altar and Christ was the final Lamb of God. But if we are prepared to disregard the shell and look for the substance, it is the solemn duty of every evangelist to preach the Gospel and then invite sinners to the Savior. You can call it what you will.
That verse had nothing to do with a "public invitation" to come to Christ.Christ was simply saying stating his deity and doing so he was also calling unbelievers to trust in him.
I or most of those who oppose the 'alter call" are not against a preacher asking those who have questions to come to him and talk or whatever but it is unbiblical to believe that one who sincerely walks down to the alter or repeats the so called sinners prayer.As Paul washer says,No one is saved by the sinner's prayer but are instead saved in spite of the sinner's prayer/alter call.
As I said earlier,The apostles and Christ never asked someone to repeat a prayer after them or anything like that.They simply shared the Gospel and encouraged them to repent and believe the Gospel.Any different way of presenting the Gospel is simply man-made and a result of lack of trust in the Power of the Holy spirit in converting man.
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/29/2008 6:59:58 PM
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RJR_fan
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quote:
Any different way of presenting the Gospel is simply man-made and a result of lack of trust in the Power of the Holy spirit in converting man.
It's a dangerous thing to counterfeit God's work. To put the Ark of the Covenant on a new cart, aping the Philistines.
_____________________________
Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/30/2008 9:39:49 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
As Paul washer says,No one is saved by the sinner's prayer but are instead saved in spite of the sinner's prayer/alter call.
It's a dangerous thing to play God and presume that we know hearts or how the Holy Spirit works on hearts. For Washer to categorically state "No one is saved by the sinner's prayer" is the height of arrogant presumption.
And for anyone to claim that John 7:37,38 has "nothing to do with a public invitation to come to Christ" is wilful blindness. That is one of the clearest public invitations recorded that Christ gave to sinners while He was on this earth as Jesus the Messiah.
At the same time, the psychological and emotional manipulation of others through the so-called "altar call" is also totally unacceptable to God. Christ gave a straightforward invitation to come to Him. Peter gave a straightforward exhortation to repent and be converted. Paul gave a straightforward exhortation to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. That is what Gospel preaching is all about.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The Altar Call - 12/1/2008 1:07:16 PM
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Lycea
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I don't care if someone comes to a decision to follow Jesus at an "altar call" or in their car driving down the road, or in a bar after they realize their life is going down the tubes. Whenever we do what scripture requires which is:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
If you confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved.
Salvation is a matter of belief and confession of faith. Anything we add to that for a requirement is placing chains on the necks of those who wish to enter the kingdom. So, have an altar call if you want, say the sinners prayer if you want, but if you start REQUIRING it for salvation or implying that it is required for salvation then you better watch out for millstones.
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It all boils down to this: Love God, Love Each Other.
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RE: The Altar Call - 12/1/2008 3:04:03 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Study Acts chapter 2 to see what "the early church" ( indeed, the first church) did under the direction of the Holy Spirit through the apostles. Water baptism was immediately after conversion, and "the breaking of bread" (the Lord's Supper) followed immediately after that. At the same time, doctrine, fellowship and prayers were all integral to the gathering of believers. And there was great power in the church.
Ezra, I think you may have extended you thinking beyond Scritpure on the "Immediate Baptism" followed by the "Immediate Lords supper" being derived from Acts 2.
It would seem that eating together and fellowshipping would be more of a correct exergesis from;
(Act 2:46) And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
I do not think it is worth us having a "Food fight" (no pun intendeD) over, but I think on this one you did s-t-r-e-a-t-c-h Scripture a bit.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: The Altar Call - 12/1/2008 7:52:00 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
Ezra, I think you may have extended you thinking beyond Scritpure on the "Immediate Baptism" followed by the "Immediate Lords supper" being derived from Acts 2.
RC:
There is no denying that those believers were baptized "the same day" that they were saved (Acts. 2:41). This is about as immediate as you can get. And this addresses the contention in some circles that believers must be "catechised" first.
When you turn to Acts 10:48, Peter COMMANDED the Gentile believers to be baptized the same day that they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. So there is no denying the fact that baptism followed hard upon conversion in the NT apostolic churches, but this practice was was later on discarded because of man's "wisdom" being greater than God's.
As to "immediately" partaking of the Lord's Supper, I will grant you that we do not know the exact time frame in which the items in Acts 2:42-46 occurred after their baptism. By the same token, the context makes it very clear that there was hardly any delay in all believers particapting in the full life of the church, including the Breaking of Bread.
So if we were to say "almost immediately" it would be quite accurate and certainly not "stretching" it.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The Altar Call - 12/1/2008 7:58:53 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
So, have an altar call if you want, say the sinners prayer if you want, but if you start REQUIRING it for salvation or implying that it is required for salvation then you better watch out for millstones.
You evidently seem to be unfamiliar with this practice. However, those who give altar calls and provide "sinners prayer" believe just as much as you do that salvation is purely by God's grace through faith in the Person and finished work of Christ. These practices are therefore not requirements for salvation but opportunities for sinners to respond to the Gospel.
Salvation is of the Lord. Therefore it cannot be prescribed in any way by any man. There is no "formula" whereby men can be saved.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The Altar Call - 12/1/2008 8:14:37 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 531
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From: Kearns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
So, have an altar call if you want, say the sinners prayer if you want, but if you start REQUIRING it for salvation or implying that it is required for salvation then you better watch out for millstones.
You evidently seem to be unfamiliar with this practice. However, those who give altar calls and provide "sinners prayer" believe just as much as you do that salvation is purely by God's grace through faith in the Person and finished work of Christ. These practices are therefore not requirements for salvation but opportunities for sinners to respond to the Gospel.
Salvation is of the Lord. Therefore it cannot be prescribed in any way by any man. There is no "formula" whereby men can be saved.
Ezra,
I agree with you that, "There is no 'formula' whereby men can be saved", but the problem is that far too many people walk away from the alter thinking they are saved simply because they went forward during the alter call. Billy Graham once said that people are not saved when they walk to the alter and say the "sinners prayer," but rather they are saved when they make the decision to get out of their seats (respond to the Gospel). Graham said that because he understands the Gospel, but those listening in church and/or at crusades do not share the same level of understanding, therefore it is prudent that preachers do a better job of explaining the Gospel and the role of the alter call.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: The Altar Call - 12/1/2008 8:49:07 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
As to those who sneer at so-called altar calls, you are reminded that the Lord Jesus Christ Himself gave an "altar call" when on the last day of the Feast of Tabernacles which occurred just before His crucifixion, He cried (by implication with a loud voice) inviting sinners to come to Him. Note what is stated in John 7:37,38:
"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried saying, If any man thirst let him come unto me and drink. He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water".
This was clearly a public invitation within the Temple at Jerusalem (where there was a literal brazen altar of sacrifice) to come to Christ and believe on Him. And this is no different than an evangelist urging sinners to come to Christ and believe on Him and be saved.
I really don't want to be nit picky. However, if one wishes to use the feast to support one's points one should be at least correct in one's chronology.
Sukkot(Feast of Tabernacles) did not occur just before the execution. It is in Sept-Oct of each year. In fact, it wasn't even the last feast He attended before Pesach(Passover). Joh 10:22 "Then came the Feast of Dedication(Hannakah) at Jerusalem. It was winter." The execution occured in Mar-Apr.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: The Altar Call - 12/2/2008 9:03:07 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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The church organization I used to attend had altars, but they were a big deal there: a double row of long, strong benches -- several that went from one side of the front of every church to the other side.
When church was over, they didn't always give what is known today as an "altar call," in that they begged, to 10 verses of "Just As I Am" for sinners to come. It was a little bit more discrete. The altars were simply available for use by those who wanted to come forward and pray.
I do wish they had left it right there. I see nothing wrong with that at all.
But unfortunately, they measured every one's spiritual health by whether or not the prayed at every service, how long they prayed, and sometimes, how excited they got. That was such a turn-off, that I sometimes decided to simply avoid appeasing this by not going at all. I hated feeling like I was on display when, to me, prayer is a private thing, unless it is a time of specific public prayer.
I just don't think that altars can be categorically put down. There are likely people out there who do it right.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: The Altar Call - 12/3/2008 2:02:53 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1827
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quote:
I really don't want to be nit picky.
Actually, you are nit picking, and for the wrong reasons.
The point was that this was the last Feast of Tabernacles which the Lord attended on earth. Passover is the first feast in the calendar of the Law of Moses and Tabernacles is the last feast (the post-exilic feasts were not in the Law of Moses). It is a type of Israel's rest during the Millenium, after it is redeemed and restored.
And on the last day of the last Feast of Tabernacles for Jesus the Messiah before He was crucified, He publicly cried out in the Temple to invite sinners to Himself. Do we see the significance of this, or do we simply continue to focus on irrelevant issues?
The Feast of Tabernacles had an intimate connection with the waters of salvation (Isa. 55:1-3), therefore Christ said, "If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink". This was also a confirmation and revelation that the Lord Jesus Christ is none other than the great I AM who invited sinners to Himself through the prophet Isaiah.
Today, every Gospel preacher must point to Christ and proclaim to sinners "If any man thirst, let Him come to the Savior and drink. Let him take of the Water of Life freely". Whether or not this is called an "altar call" is irrelevant.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The Altar Call - 12/3/2008 5:00:12 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
I really don't want to be nit picky.
Actually, you are nit picking, and for the wrong reasons.
The point was that this was the last Feast of Tabernacles which the Lord attended on earth. Passover is the first feast in the calendar of the Law of Moses and Tabernacles is the last feast (the post-exilic feasts were not in the Law of Moses). It is a type of Israel's rest during the Millenium, after it is redeemed and restored.
And on the last day of the last Feast of Tabernacles for Jesus the Messiah before He was crucified, He publicly cried out in the Temple to invite sinners to Himself. Do we see the significance of this, or do we simply continue to focus on irrelevant issues?
The Feast of Tabernacles had an intimate connection with the waters of salvation (Isa. 55:1-3), therefore Christ said, "If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink". This was also a confirmation and revelation that the Lord Jesus Christ is none other than the great I AM who invited sinners to Himself through the prophet Isaiah.
Today, every Gospel preacher must point to Christ and proclaim to sinners "If any man thirst, let Him come to the Savior and drink. Let him take of the Water of Life freely". Whether or not this is called an "altar call" is irrelevant.
I was going to comment, but, like most alter calls, this argument appears to jump from point to point with flowery verbage and little in the way of clear connections. So, I wish you well with your alter call, but when it comes to what I must do, I will stick to what the Scriptures actually command me to do.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: The Altar Call - 12/3/2008 10:08:47 PM
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Scheri
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I think that altar calls are a good thing to have.
They are not just for sinners! They are for those
who might have something new called to their attention
that they feel they need to pray at that time.
Or something they have had on their heart they wish to
ask the Lord about. Remember, every knee shall bow and
every tongue shall confess. There is no shame in kneeling
before your brothers and sisters just as in your own closet.
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RE: The Altar Call - 12/4/2008 3:15:42 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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An altar came in very handy for my husband and me -- especially me -- not long after he had also left the old church. I am glad that the church he was attending then had altars.
After leaving the old church, the L-rd seemed to be able to get my attention more readily, and one week, He really zapped me with a major fault I had that was strongly effecting me, my husband, and our marriage. Then, I strongly hated the town and state we live in. As a result, every time he talked about buying a house and settling here, I deliberately put every road I could think of in his way. Through that week, I began to understand that it wasn't really the town and state I hated but other things in the town -- things I no longer even had to deal with! And He began to put His thumb on me so hard that by the time Sunday came around, I was a grease spot on our rented home's floor. So I knew what I had to do.
I went to church with him that Sunday morning, and when it was over, took his hand and led him down to the altar, where we knelt and I looked him in the eyes and vowed to not only quit standing in his way but also to do all I could to help him find a house. My words were tried, when I wanted to back out, because our first appointment with the realtor was on 9/11. But we did it, and G-d has SO blessed us for it.
Altars are beneficial. I think that it is how they are used that makes the difference.
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: The Altar Call - 12/5/2008 1:05:00 AM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 512
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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This may help :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuabITeO4l8
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Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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