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The Altar Call - 11/13/2008 12:50:00 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 470
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From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
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This topic involves much that is connected to the altar call:
Sinners prayer/Repentance/Heaven
Can't think of anything else. If anyone else thinks of something lets talk about it.
The altar call, for the specific purpose of getting to heaven, is something I have wondered about for years. From my experience, others can share what they have seen or heard, heaven is used as the appeal. The question is usually, "Do you know for certain that if you died today you would go to heaven?"
That question to be is very misleading in several ways. If you have people there that are certain they are going to heaven but are not born again will not go forward. The fire insurance people will go forward as to avoid hell. The people don't understand what is at stake.
Then there is the repeat after me sinners prayer. What comes after is usually a variety of, "If you said that prayer you are know saved."
Lets talk.
< Message edited by Child4Jesus -- 11/13/2008 12:58:24 PM >
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/13/2008 12:52:33 PM
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mcleod
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Child4Jesus,
I am having a hardtime trying to find the sinner's pray in the bible.
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/13/2008 12:57:30 PM
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mcleod
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Also if the words used;" that you need to take up the cross", before it was anything was said about heaven. How many would find in appealing?
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/13/2008 12:59:54 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 470
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From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Also if the words used;" that you need to take up the cross", before it was anything was said about heaven. How many would find in appealing?
Not many I suppose.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/13/2008 3:27:16 PM
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twincities
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i don't think the alter call is wrong, normally.. as long as they show that it isn't the prayer but knowing that Jesus is savior and Lord. one needs to repent of their sin.
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/13/2008 3:59:06 PM
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Brock.L
Posts: 32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: twincities
i don't think the alter call is wrong, normally.. as long as they show that it isn't the prayer but knowing that Jesus is savior and Lord. one needs to repent of their sin.
You're right, and we do all this by faith. Not faith in the prayer, but by faith that we have been heard by our Father and we have been Redeemed by our Savior who died for our sins.
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/14/2008 1:41:06 PM
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Rick4Him
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Being born again by the Spirit is the key. It isn't joining a Christian club or being pressured into a decision. Although I do believe some may make a profession at the alter that leads to true genuine salvation.
I wasn't saved at an alter, but I did say the sinners prayer in my Pastors office. Looking back I now see that I was truly born again the night before when I couldn't sleep after being witnessed to by the same Pastor. I prayed for the Lord to save me then and the next day I came to my Pastor and told him. He had me repeat the prayer and then introduced me to the church at that nights service. So, was I saved when I prayed at night or the next day.
I believe most people are saved prior to coming to the alter and many don't even go to the alter. Usually they are convicted before and have surrendered to Christ and then make it public at the alter or at their baptism.
The church I now attend is nondenominational and they use the alter a lot. Mostly it is used by Christians who need healing or are facing other difficulties in their lives or families lives. Several Brothers and Sisters in Christ gather around and pray with them. It is a great sight to see. It really shows the love we have for each other. I haven't seen anyone come to the Lord yet at the alter there, but I'm sure I will and I pray many will gather around to pray. Or do you all think this would be intimidating? Maybe!
Rick
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/14/2008 3:45:28 PM
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Lapidoth
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I've been meditating on a lot of words and what they really mean.
One of them is the "altar."
What is an altar? How do we define it?
I think it's simple now that I've thought about it.
Abraham and other patriarchs built altars where they were.
Abraham would pile up a bunch of stones [build an altar]
When did it stop being a pile of stones and become an altar?
It's not an altar unless there's a sacrifice.
When the animal was sacrifices on the pile of stones,
then it was an altar. Otherwise, it's just a pile of stones.
So, from that, what do we have in front of a lot of churches?
Do we have an "altar," or, do we just have a "bench" in front
of the church?
It's just a bench, unless we actually give our all at that bench.
The real altar is where ever we are. In the pew, walking down
the street, etc. When we give our all, we sacrifice the self and
give it to God, there's our altar.
If we go up to the front, say some words, and our life hasn't changed,
it's just a bench. The altar is a sacrificed life.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/14/2008 4:55:19 PM
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Bluethread
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What I see in the Scriptures is to preach the good news of the Kingdom and make disciples. Now, we are told that one plants, one waters, etc., but there is also the principle of rersponsibility for ones actions. I believe this comes into play in the relationship between physical paternity and spiritual paternity. The alter call does not permit an individual to be a "deadbeat" when it comes to seeing that the ones one has influenced reach maturity.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/14/2008 7:25:22 PM
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techne
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further, an altar call is a waste of time if those people don't become part of a community i.e. the body.
_____________________________
And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/14/2008 8:59:26 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1827
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quote:
I am having a hardtime trying to find the sinner's pray in the bible.
McLeod:
Meditate on Psalm 51, and the next time you wish to provide a sinner with "The Sinner's Prayer" open your Bible to this psalm.
Psalms 51
51:1
Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
51:2
Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
51:3
For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
51:4
Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
51:6
Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
51:7
Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
51:8
Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
51:9
Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
51:11
Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
51:12
Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
51:13
Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
51:14
Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
51:15
O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
51:16
For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You will read a lot of whining on this forum about the sinner's prayer. Simply ignore it.
The fact of the matter is that thousands have been saved by simply praying a prayer of confession and repentance while confessing with their mouth the Lord Jesus.
While there is no doubt that there are many false professions of faith, there are also many genuine coversions. So its time to stop whining about this matter and its time to present sinners with Psalm 51 along with the Gospel.
The so-called "altar call" is simply one evangelistic tool. Merely because it has been abused does not mean thast it cannot or does not have legitimate uses. When Peter preached on the Day of Pentecost, he gave an "altar call" also: "And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation" (Acts 2:40).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/15/2008 12:14:44 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1131
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quote:
Ezra: Meditate on Psalm 51, and the next time you wish to provide a sinner with "The Sinner's Prayer" open your Bible to this psalm.
What Psalms 51 is: It's the writing of a believer, not an unbeliever, repentantly pouring his heart out to God.
What Psalms 51 is not: It's not a directive to have unbelievers recite a prayer to become saved.
The fact remains that we cannot turn ourselves to God and 'get saved' through our own will or decision. In our unbelieving state, we are actually hostile to God. It's God who grants us repentance, enables us to turn to Him, and gives us faith.
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/15/2008 12:54:16 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
What Psalms 51 is: It's the writing of a believer, not an unbeliever, repentantly pouring his heart out to God.
While it is true that believing David wrote this Psalm after he sinned grievously, these are the words of the Holy Spirit and the confessions of a sinner (or a sinning saint) which are acceptable to God.
Every sinner needs God's mercy and forgiveness, every sinner needs to be washed in the blood of the Lamb, and every sinner needs to have his iniquitiesd blotted out. Every sinner needs to confess to God that he is a sinner who has sinned primarily against God. These are the thoughts expressed in this Psalm. Sinning saints can also express these thoughts.
Psalm 51 is expressed in a condensed form in Luke 18:13:"God be merciful to me a sinner". This too could be used as the sinner's prayer and God would see the genuineness of repentance and faith.
quote:
What Psalms 51 is not: It's not a directive to have unbelievers recite a prayer to become saved.
On what authority do you make such a categorical statement? God is pleased to use His Word in whatever way He chooses. We dare not limit the Holy One of Israel. Those words are in the Psalms by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit so that they may be lifted up to God in prayer, whether by an unregenerate sinner or a sinning saint.
quote:
The fact remains that we cannot turn ourselves to God and 'get saved' through our own will or decision.
Actually, this is not a "fact" but a misconception, else why would sinners respond as such in Scripture: "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" (Acts 2:37) and "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30). If God did not expect sinners to respond to the Gospel, He would not have commanded that the Gospel to preached to every creature (Mk. 16:15,16). Scripture commands sinners to repent and believe.
quote:
In our unbelieving state, we are actually hostile to God. It's God who grants us repentance, enables us to turn to Him, and gives us faith.
It is the power of the Gospel and the convicting and convincing of the Holy Spirit that brings sinners to repentance. This is where the natural hostility of sinners to God is broken down. How is it that you have been unable to perceive this?
"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom. 10:17). Faith does not simply drop out of the sky (as some mistakenly believe). Faith is simply taking God at His Word after He has convicted and convinced us of our need for the Savior, and then receiving Christ by faith as both Lord and Savior.
Many seem to forget that Christ must be invited into our souls (Rev. 3:20) and received as the Bread of Life. This is not something passive.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/15/2008 1:21:29 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1131
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quote:
lw9: The fact remains that we cannot turn ourselves to God and 'get saved' through our own will or decision.
quote:
Ezra: Actually, this is not a "fact" but a misconception, else why would sinners respond as such in Scripture: "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" (Acts 2:37) and "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30).
They turn to God and respond because of the work of God upon them, not because they decide or will themselves into salvation.
Jn 1:12 Yet to all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God – 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
Jn 6:65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has enabled him.”
Jn 6:43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets; ‘They will all be taught by God. Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from Him come to me.”
Jn 5:21 “For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom He wishes.”
Jn 15:16 “You did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.
quote:
If God did not expect sinners to respond to the Gospel, He would not have commanded that the Gospel to preached to every creature (Mk. 16:15,16). Scripture commands sinners to repent and believe.
And the only reason they can repent and believe is because of God's work and calling.
Acts 5:31 God exalted Him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that He might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.
Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, God has even granted the Gentiles repentance unto life.”
Rom 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of His kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?
2 Cor 7:9 I rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
2 Tim 2:25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
Lk 24:45 Then He [Jesus] opened their minds to understand the Scriptures.
Acts 16:14 One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.
Deu 30:6 The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. 8 You will again obey the Lord and follow all His commands I am giving you today.
Col 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12 having been buried with Him in baptism and raised with Him through your faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ.
quote:
It is the power of the Gospel and the convicting and convincing of the Holy Spirit that brings sinners to repentance. This is where the natural hostility of sinners to God is broken down. How is it that you have been unable to perceive this?
Of course unbelievers are called through the power of the Gospel. I don't see where I have said otherwise.
quote:
Faith is simply taking God at His Word after He has convicted and convinced us of our need for the Savior, and then receiving Christ by faith as both Lord and Savior.
Rom 12:3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
Eph 2: 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.
quote:
Many seem to forget that Christ must be invited into our souls (Rev. 3:20) and received as the Bread of Life. This is not something passive.
Errr... again, Rev 3:20 is written to believers, not non-believers. It's part of the messages to the churches to continue in Christ.
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/15/2008 1:39:35 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1827
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quote:
Errr... again, Rev 3:20 is written to believers, not non-believers. It's part of the messages to the churches to continue in Christ.
This misunderstanding is quite common among Christians, who fail to carefully read what is written.
Is Revelation 3:20 written to "believers"? Since believers are already in Christ, and Christ is already in believers, He does not wait outside and knock in order to enter in. He is already within, and if He is not then that individual is unregenerate (Rom. 8:9).
Therefore Rev. 3:20 is written to false professors who think they are Christians but are devoid of everything that Christians possess. Notice that Christ offers the church of the Laodiceans "gold", "white raiment", and "eye-salve".
Clearly they are devoid of the Holy Spirit and the robe of Christ's righteousness, since they are "poor, blind, and naked". No believer is poor, blind, and naked, since they are "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people or a precious possession... called out of darkness into His marevllous light" (1 Pet. 2: 9).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/15/2008 1:54:29 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 3002
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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The danger is that too many equate an experience with salvation and it far too easy to emotionally manipulate someone. Confession/repentance involves a change in lifestyle/worldview that has proven fruit. If taken to an extereme an altar call can be worshiped over discipleship.
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/15/2008 9:11:10 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
The danger is that too many equate an experience with salvation and it far too easy to emotionally manipulate someone. Confession/repentance involves a change in lifestyle/worldview that has proven fruit. If taken to an extereme an altar call can be worshiped over discipleship.
If anyone trusts in a decision they made, they may be fooling themselves.
If anyone's confidence is in the sincerity of a profession,
they may be fooling themselves.
If anyone thinks their salvation was wrought by God, then there ought to be a change.
So, altar calls, prayers, or whatever mean nothing if God does no lasting work.
I believe a person can be saved this way, but I believe many more are deceived.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/15/2008 10:31:25 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Errr... again, Rev 3:20 is written to believers, not non-believers. It's part of the messages to the churches to continue in Christ.
This misunderstanding is quite common among Christians, who fail to carefully read what is written.
Is Revelation 3:20 written to "believers"? Since believers are already in Christ, and Christ is already in believers, He does not wait outside and knock in order to enter in. He is already within, and if He is not then that individual is unregenerate (Rom. 8:9).
Therefore Rev. 3:20 is written to false professors who think they are Christians but are devoid of everything that Christians possess. Notice that Christ offers the church of the Laodiceans "gold", "white raiment", and "eye-salve".
Clearly they are devoid of the Holy Spirit and the robe of Christ's righteousness, since they are "poor, blind, and naked". No believer is poor, blind, and naked, since they are "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people or a precious possession... called out of darkness into His marevllous light" (1 Pet. 2: 9).
Rev 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth."
In context, these are believers who are at risk of being abandoned because of their apathy. If a group of people focuses on eating and drinking, singing and dancing, along with "altar calls" and endless "confessions of faith" while ignoring the Word, then yes they have left Him outside and are poor, blind, and naked. We did the same thing when Moses delayed in coming down from the mountain. We decided for ourselves how we should serve Adonai and had not Moses intervened for us, we would have all been destroyed.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/15/2008 10:41:36 PM
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colliefan
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I grew up in a legalistic church were attendance was mandatory or one wasn't considered to be saved. Invariably, Sunday evening services concluded with the singing of all 1001 verses of "Just as I am" singing until some poor soul came forward to end the service The teens who sat together would nudge each other seing who would "get saved" so we could eat dinner.
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/17/2008 10:45:50 PM
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OleFitzHi
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I think the Altar Call gives people a chance to respond to the message they heard and the action of God on their heart.
I have seen it abused. I have seen mothers berate their sons into coming down front.
The altar call should mean that you are trusting Christ. If you are trusting the altar call, then you probably are deceived.
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/17/2008 11:03:55 PM
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colliefan
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On Monday nights I led a bible study at a local womens prison. Our audience is women just entering the correctional system. B/C they are on an emotional edge I make sure I don't have an "altar call." We see them once or twice and they are moved elsewhere in the prison system.
I make sure that I outline exactly what is involved in salvation and direct to the section in the bible we give them what is meant by conversion. My goal is to get them to own their salavation and to use their prison time as a time of restoration/renewal.
Holidays are an especially hard time for prisoner. I always tell them to embrace the hurt and to allow God to heal the wounds that have led them to committ the crimes (most of the drug related) that led them to prison.
Tonight's closing song wasI Will Rise. I told them this was God's promise for them.
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RE: The Altar Call - 11/18/2008 4:28:27 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OleFitzHi
I think the Altar Call gives people a chance to respond to the message they heard and the action of God on their heart.
It might be more valuable to talk to them about it throughout the week. That way we cultivate the Word of Adonai into their hearts as they either agree to or refute the message. I do not claim to know what Adonai is doing in another persons heart.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: The Altar Call -- an Historical look - 11/22/2008 2:58:31 AM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 823
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From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
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quote:
Lets talk.
It could be argued that the altar call is a nearly blasphemous innovation, a blatant and brazen attempt to replace God's Spirit with human charisma.
It was invented by American pelagian Charles G. Finney, who had no room in his theology for either original sin, or for supernatural regeneration. After all, as the title of one of Finney's sermons asserted, Sinners (are) Bound to Change Their Own Hearts. IOW, you might say that Finney's "theology" had little, if any, room for God. The emphasis was on human persuasive techniques, and various forms of rigid self-righteousness.
The immediate legacy of Finney's work was, in his own words, a hardening and embittering of the areas he'd "revived," that made them even more godless after his "ministry" than they'd been before. Yes, you can reach into your psychological bag of tricks to embarrass people, summon up crippling guilt feelings, and play upon those emotions to compel them to undergo some kind of ritual -- going up to the front of the assembly to recite a prayer, or drink the purple kool-ade. That doesn't mean that they'll thank you for it later.
The longer-range legacy was even more devastating for the credibility of the gospel. We no longer were known as gracious people who'd experienced grace, but as self-righteous blue-noses who got excited about all the things we didn't do, so as to distinguish ourselves from the lesser beings around us. At one point, this self-righteousness metastasized into a nation-wide "crusade" to compel our neighbors to be "holier" than the One who furnished excellent wine to a wedding, and commanded us to remember His atoning sacrifice with an alcoholic beverage. "Prohibition" was the "christian" "success" that engendered organized crime on a massive scale, and a deep contempt for law, order, and Christianity.
On an intermediate historical time frame, this "gospel" of salvation through urgent self-righteousness also energized the war of Northern aggression that had Americans slaughtering one another by the hundreds of thousands. The British ended slavery in an orderly fashion -- and today, the vast majority of African-Americans in truly demanding professions (medicine, engineering) have Caribbean roots. And we are all, as a nation, enslaved to a political caste of bankers and lawyers who demand around four times as much as God Himself requires.
We may meet Finney in heaven. His legacy, however, has consigned untold millions to the nether regions.
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Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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RE: The Altar Call -- a Statistical Look - 11/22/2008 3:11:37 AM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 823
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
Status: online
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quote:
The so-called "altar call" is simply one evangelistic tool. Merely because it has been abused does not mean that it cannot or does not have legitimate uses.
The one (perhaps only?) altar-caller who had the integrity to "look at the numbers" was Billy Graham. His own organization's research revealed that a mere 4% of those who "went forward" at his "crusades" actually demonstrated the fruits of conversion. Apparently, the 96% merely got a denatured version of the gospel, just enough to immunize them against the real thing.
A technique with a 96% defect rate would never be tolerated in normal life. A technique used by Christians that turns 96% of those it "reaches" into even more determined hell-bound sinners raises questions about our sanity.
Well, let's be charitable. Those are Billy Graham's results, in public venues. When used tactfully within a local congregation, maybe the altar call just transforms those who respond into church-bound Christians. They understand and experience Christianity as a hot-house emotional upheaval, safely confined to a specific few square feet of "sacred" real estate. Jesus Freaks used to call those who "got saved" that a way "Church Christians," and knew from frequent experience that these saints were useless for personal evangelism. Their patterning had crippled them for service in the larger outside world.
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Blogging my way through the Turkish New Testament
Meet my beloved mentor, RJR
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