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ORIGINAL: Josh4LinC

Retro or anyone else that may know off the top of their heads,

In any of the other instances where the temple was destroyed and the Israelites were taken into captivity and what-not, did they continue sacrifices apart from the temple? Or did the sacrifices cease while they were in captivity? In other words, at some point did the sacrifices become dependent upon there being a temple? I haven't researched this, and I was wondering if any of you know.

While I subscribe to the full future-tense 70th week school of thought, I do acknowledge that Christ Jesus was the final sacrifice, once and for all sin. That I will never deny. However, seeing as Israel as never completely acknowledged Jesus as the Messiah, is it reasonable to say that if the temple is rebuilt that sacrifices would recommence if sacrifices had become dependent on there being a temple? This is purely an academic question, and I believe such a question relates greatly to the debate about the last week. And, yes, my knowledge of the Jewish culture and traditions is lacking.

Thanks in advance for any helpful responses.

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ORIGINAL: bob97

I have to ask this question...Has the gospel been preached to all the world and to all nations and if it has why is the Church still making an effort to fulfill the commands of Christ?

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Mat 24:14


Bob

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I think Scripture is clear that Matthew 24:14 has already been fulfilled.

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ORIGINAL: bob97

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I think Scripture is clear that Matthew 24:14 has already been fulfilled.

So the Church has no mandate to follow the commission Christ laid out?

Bob

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ORIGINAL: SonicStudent

Hi bob and the rest of the crew,

Please do correct me if i'm wrong here. But wasn't it proved that our modern calendar which was worked out several hundred years after Christ, out by 3 years or so????? And the Lord's birth is correct if we say it was more like 2 or 3 bc and the crucifixion around 30AD. It was years ago I was shown this and have no writing's to refer too, so if anyone knows anything more accurate, or can show it was a load of stuff and nonsense, please step up.

Cheers

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if anyone knows anything more accurate

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ORIGINAL: bob97

Then someone like Obama, with his new found recognition by the Muslims might be able to step in and broker a peace agreement between the two sides.

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ORIGINAL: bob97

Josh...I am a little confused with your numbers but I'm pretty dense.


Here is the way I see the time periods; The order to rebuild was given in March/April 444 B.C. under the reign of Artaxerxes. There were two periods, 7 weeks and 62 weeks; a total of 69 weeks, 483 years or 173,880 days (360 x 483). Divide 173880 days by our year of 365.242 days and you come up with 476 years and 24 days.

Subtract 476 years from 444 B.C. and you arrive at 33AD. Add 24 days and you come up to March 29th 33 AD

Christ was cut off at the end of the 69 week period, not midway into the 70th week.

Now we can argue starting points and there are two potential starting points; a command by Cyrus to restore the Temple in 539 b.c. (Ezr 1:1-2) or from the decree of Artaxerxes to restore Jerusalem in 444 b.c. (Ezr 7:13-26). I just know the numbers work out if we use the decree of Artaxerxes.

Bob

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ORIGINAL: SonicStudent

Hi Bob, how are you???

Well, I don’t know if this is a conclusion, but a definite consideration.

I do tend to believe that Jesus was born around 3 to 4 BC, which makes me think!

I used to believe in a gap dispensation theory between the 69th week and it recommencing the 70th week after the time of the Gentiles, still future to us. However, I had un-answered problems within this theory. Daniel’s description seemed to me to be describing what would happen regarding the Messiah, but because the accepted belief was that so much of the prophecy was teaching about anti-Christ, I’ve just accepted things.

In my ever changing opinion on this subject, it appears clear that there ‘is’ a future man of sin that the New Testament warns about, but I have to consider that Retro might well be correct, as I honestly find it difficult seeing him found in those verses in Daniel 9 and a lot of what is ascribed to anti-Christ in these verses should be ascribed to the Messiah.

-------------------------

I was sat here last night reading these verses in Daniel, and began considering how God is so precise with numbers. We all recognise how God uses numbers to indicate various occurrences or truths. Examples being;

No. 4 = Earth, creation, world, No. 7 = Perfection, completeness, No. 40 = Probation, testing, closing in victory or judgment …… And so on!!!

Anyways it got me thinking. I find it very unlikely that Jesus’ ministry on Earth was purposed to be three and a half years long, when we consider that we are dealing with a prophecy that is primarily dealing with multiples of sevens and seven indicating completeness and perfection. It would be reasonable to assume that the Messiah’s ministry was indeed intended to be seven years long, which goes along way to explaining why the content here uses the term ‘cut off’. Not just cut off from the land of the living, but also cut short!

When I looked at Luke 4: 17-19 17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the broken hearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. It seems to indicate that this was it! This was the time for Israel to be delivered and to finally understand what their God was all about and receive their King that would not only heal them, but through them, bring healing and understanding to a world that didn’t know God. It was time to receive their king and with Him, take the Kingdom of God to the rest of the world, having all God’s promises fulfilled.
Because of their rejection, jealousy and blindness, instead they had their Messiah killed, half way through that ministry. I think that Jesus’ triumphant entry into Jerusalem ‘should’ have been Jesus’ time to be accepted and begin to lead God’s people. If things had gone completely different than they did, heaven only knows what would have been achieved during the ‘next’ three and a half years of that ministry, but I think it would be fare to say, it would have been Perfection and completeness. Here’s where the prophecies indicate Israel ‘should’ have received their Messiah;
John 12:12On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, 13Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord. 14And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, 15Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass’s colt.
And here is the result of their rejection at the halfway point of Jesus’ ministry to become their Messiah;
Matt 23: 37-39O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Isn’t it a possibility worth pondering that ‘here’ is where Daniel’s prophecy freeze frames? Israel receiving their Messiah and King halted because of their unbelief?
Of course the Lord God knew this would happen and ordained that this very act of rejection by the world of men would actually bring the salvation of God to those that ‘would’ believe on His name.

Since then, Israel in general have rejected belief that Jesus was their King and Messiah, and so continue to wait for the fulfilment of the prophecy of their Messiah coming to deliver them.
But there is danger here regarding the Jewish peoples belief that their Messiah has not yet been. Jesus warned them with a prophetic warning concerning their rejection of Him;

John 5: 43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

It seems to me that Jesus is saying here that; even though He came doing God’s will for the glory of God and in God’s name, for the salvation of God’s people, they still rejected Him, because they ‘didn’t want this man to rule over them’!
But that another ‘will’ come, and he will come not to do the will of God, but for his own purposes and in His own name, and because his message will tickle their ears, they ‘will’ receive him!

It sure sounds like the Jews are going to accept this man as their Messiah!

When this day comes, and the Jewish people hail this fake as their messiah, I think it may well be then that Daniel’s prophesy recommences. Jesus returning to claim His throne and the judgement of God!

There is a shadow and type in 1 Kings 1 When King David was old, and Solomon was to gain the thrown as sworn by David his father, but Adonijah glorified himself and proclaimed himself king, usurping David’s son Prince Solomon from his God given right to be king of Israel.

1 kings 1: 5 5Then Adonijah the son of Haggith exalted himself, saying, I will be king: and he prepared him chariots and horsemen, and fifty men to run before him.

24And Nathan said, (to King David) My lord, O king, hast thou said, Adonijah shall reign after me, and he shall sit upon my throne? 25For he is gone down this day, and hath slain oxen and fat cattle and sheep in abundance, and hath called all the king’s sons, and the captains of the host, and Abiathar the priest; and, behold, they eat and drink before him, and say, God save king Adonijah.

Then King David said - 30Even as I sware unto thee by the LORD God of Israel, saying, Assuredly Solomon thy son shall reign after me, and he shall sit upon my throne in my stead; even so will I certainly do this day. And king David said, Call me Zadok the priest, and Nathan the prophet, and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada. And they came before the king. 33The king also said unto them, Take with you the servants of your lord, and cause Solomon my son to ride upon mine own mule, and bring him down to Gihon: 34And let Zadok the priest and Nathan the prophet anoint him there king over Israel: and blow ye with the trumpet, and say, God save king Solomon.

Adonijah finds out the bad news:

Adonijah said unto him, Come in; for thou art a valiant man, and bringest good tidings. 43And Jonathan answered and said to Adonijah, Verily our lord king David hath made Solomon king. 44And the king hath sent with him Zadok the priest, and Nathan the prophet, and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada, and the Cherethites, and the Pelethites, and they have caused him to ride upon the king’s mule: 45And Zadok the priest and Nathan the prophet have anointed him king in Gihon: and they are come up from thence rejoicing, so that the city rang again. This is the noise that ye have heard. 46And also Solomon sitteth on the throne of the kingdom.

I don’t know about anyone else, but this feels like a prophetic shadow to me of a future fulfilment.

So as I say, I wouldn’t say I’ve concluded on anything, but makes me feel that Retro’s three and a half year thingy has more substance to it. A work in progress though LOL

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97

Well thought out Sonic...but I have some problems.

If I use the Artaxerxes' decree of 457 BCE as being the starting point and come forward 483 years I arrive at 26AD. Using Gabriel statement that the Messiah would be cut off after threescore and two weeks means the Messiah would have been killed in 26AD (483 years). Does anyone here think the crucifixion took place in 26AD?

I can maybe be persuaded that Messiah was anointed in 26AD and started his ministry. I could then be swayed that He was crucified in 30AD which would have been on the 14 of Nissan which would be a Wednesday. I could be convinced that Christ made a covenant at this point of being cut off (karat) but the problem I’m having is that we are now 3 to 4 years past the threescore and two.

When would have Christ have made the covenant? It would have to of been at the point of His crucifixion which would have been the same time that He cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease at the renting of the Veil. To give a time period of 3 ½ years the covenant would have been made at His anointing in 26AD.

I have a problem that the people who destroyed the city were not the people of Christ (people of the prince), so there does seem to be another prince. I also have a problem that the destruction occurred 40 after the crucifixion.

I’ve got a lot of problems but I’m still looking on it. Maybe someone can see the holes in my thinking and give me some clues.

Bob

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United States President-Elect Barack Obama will support the Saudi Initiative for peace between Israel and Arab nations, the British Sunday Times reported Sunday. Obama told Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, “The Israelis would be crazy not to accept this initiative,” according to the Times.

The initiative calls on Israel to withdraw completely to its 1949 borders in exchange for normalized relations with Arab League countries. It includes a full retreat from the eastern half of Jerusalem, including the Temple Mount, and from the strategic Golan Heights in northern Israel.

The Saudi Plan has won limited support from President Shimon Peres, who says it could be used to launch negotiations. Other senior politicians and defense officials have dismissed the plan, saying it wold compromise Israel's security.

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni and Defense Minister Ehud Barak, the heads of the Kadima and Labor parties, have not ruled out the Saudi Initiative completely. However, neither has expressed willingness to give away the Temple Mount or major Israeli population centers located east of Israel's 1949 borders. Approximately 600,000 Israeli citizens live in the areas, including eastern neighborhoods of Jerusalem, demanded for the PA under the Saudi plan.

The plan also calls on Israel to find a solution for the plight of millions of foreign Arabs who claim descent from those who fled Israel during the War of Independence. They are considered refugees by Arab governments and continually have been denied citizenship in their countries of birth.

While proponents of the plan have welcomed the plan as a chance to deal with the refugees without granting them Israeli citizenship, some Arab leaders have warned that any alternative to allowing the millions to “return” to Israel is unacceptable. PA-based terrorist groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad are among those who insist that every Arab who identifies as a descendant of a former resident of Israel be allowed to live in Israel.

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ORIGINAL: bob97

This is interesting;

1. Report: Obama Favors 1949 Border
by Maayana Miskin

quote:

United States President-Elect Barack Obama will support the Saudi Initiative for peace between Israel and Arab nations, the British Sunday Times reported Sunday. Obama told Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, “The Israelis would be crazy not to accept this initiative,” according to the Times.

The initiative calls on Israel to withdraw completely to its 1949 borders in exchange for normalized relations with Arab League countries. It includes a full retreat from the eastern half of Jerusalem, including the Temple Mount, and from the strategic Golan Heights in northern Israel.

The Saudi Plan has won limited support from President Shimon Peres, who says it could be used to launch negotiations. Other senior politicians and defense officials have dismissed the plan, saying it wold compromise Israel's security.

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni and Defense Minister Ehud Barak, the heads of the Kadima and Labor parties, have not ruled out the Saudi Initiative completely. However, neither has expressed willingness to give away the Temple Mount or major Israeli population centers located east of Israel's 1949 borders. Approximately 600,000 Israeli citizens live in the areas, including eastern neighborhoods of Jerusalem, demanded for the PA under the Saudi plan.

The plan also calls on Israel to find a solution for the plight of millions of foreign Arabs who claim descent from those who fled Israel during the War of Independence. They are considered refugees by Arab governments and continually have been denied citizenship in their countries of birth.

While proponents of the plan have welcomed the plan as a chance to deal with the refugees without granting them Israeli citizenship, some Arab leaders have warned that any alternative to allowing the millions to “return” to Israel is unacceptable. PA-based terrorist groups such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad are among those who insist that every Arab who identifies as a descendant of a former resident of Israel be allowed to live in Israel.

Sorce: Arutz Sheva [news@israelnationalnews.com]

Bob

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They are considered refugees by Arab governments and continually have been denied citizenship in their countries of birth.

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United States President-Elect Barack Obama will support the Saudi Initiative for peace between Israel and Arab nations, the British Sunday Times reported Sunday. Obama told Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, “The Israelis would be crazy not to accept this initiative,” according to the Times.

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United States President-Elect Barack Obama will support the Saudi Initiative for peace between Israel and Arab nations, the British Sunday Times reported Sunday. Obama told Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, “The Israelis would be crazy not to accept this initiative,” according to the Times.

Apparently Obama is not reading his Bible....