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RE: Are we entering the "Last Week" - 11/12/2008 2:44:21 AM
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Josh4LinC
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From: Minnesota
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Yeah, I agree. My spidey-sense is tingling. Seeing what I am seeing and the knowledge I am gathering through my own research, it is becoming clear that the harvest is ripening. While I don't have any Wall Street stuff to fear, I do have my own debt issues to deal with. I am making this a priority to pay down. I can't fall into the thinking that we are almost out of here so I'll be free from it anyways. No, if it is God's intention that we go through this time of trial, I would like it if I didn't get arrested for being unable to pay back my school loans and credit card debt. If I am jailed during such a time, I'd much prefer that it's because I told them where to stick their precious mark and for professing the name of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus.
In any event, I think that we are going to see the next phase towards the one world rule with a financial crash that will destroy the dollar. This will set us up for the Amero or some other currency. I mentioned in another thread about Joe Biden's 6-month "prophecy" and Colin Powell's Meet the Press gaff where he said that a crisis is coming on January 21 - 22. While I cannot rid myself of my debt before that time, I am going to stock up on some extra canned goods and bottled water (just in case). Also, if I am able to, I might look into other stores of value other than the dollar (gold or silver). I don't see this as panicking either. I think it's following Joseph's example in Egypt and being a good Eagle Scout (BE PREPARED).
Regardless, these things are just mere preparations. I know that we have nothing to fear, because we know that "greater is He that is in us, than he that is in the world." Also, we know how the story ends. 
In Christ,
Josh
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RE: Are we entering the "Last Week" - 11/12/2008 3:53:44 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
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From: Florida
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Shalom, my friends.
It is my position that we are already in the middle of the last shavuwa` ("seven" or "week" of years). That the week, like the comings of the Messiah, was split in two. The first three and a half years were fulfilled in the Ministry of the Messiah during the First Coming (or Advent) of Yeshua` the Messiah, who came as the Messiah, the Son of Yosef (Joseph), the Suffering and Dying Messiah, the "LAMB that was slain." The last three and a half years will culminate in the Second Coming (or Advent) when He comes as the Messiah, the Son of Daviyd (David), the Victorious and Conquering Messiah, The "LION from the tribe of Y'hudah."
I believe that the interpretation of Dani'el's prophecy in 9:24-27 is found in the words of Yeshua in Matthew 23:37-39.
I've said it once and I'll say it as many times as it takes to get someone to listen: When God stops accepting sacrifices, the sacrifices have ceased. Any additional attempts to sacrifice to the God who is no longer regarding sacrifice are just useless butcherings. According to Hebrews 10:16-22,...
Heb 10:16-22
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
KJV
This was confirmed by the death of Yeshua` as recorded in the three synoptic Gospels:
Matt 27:50-53
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
KJV
Mark 15:37-38
37 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.
38 And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
KJV
Luke 23:44-46
44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
KJV
So, Dani'el is NOT about the "antichrist" breaking a covenant. It is Yeshua` Himself, the MESSIAH who causes the sacrifice and the oblation to cease! It is the MESSIAH who pours out desolation on the desolate because of their own abominations! "What abominations?" one might ask.
Luke 16:14-18
14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
KJV
Led by the P'rushim (Pharisees), the abominations were (1) justifying oneself before men by making allowances in the Torah for themselves (because they were covetous) basically rejecting Torah in the process, instead of being justified only by God, and then (2) thinking that they were going to FORCE their way into the Kingdom from God WITHOUT THE MESSIAH! They REJECTED YHVH's Messiah, His SON! THIS rejection was the ABOMINATION that made Yisra'el DESOLATE!
It's really rather ironic, much like the original sin. When Adam and Chavah ("Eve" pronounced in Greek "Eh-veh") took and ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it wasn't the fruit that gave them that knowledge; the irony was that the action of disobeying God made them evil while God alone was still good! Thus, by the disobedience they acquired the knowledge of what was good and what was evil: God was good, and they were now evil! Before they disobeyed, they couldn't tell the difference between God and themselves because they were all good!
In a similar way, by rejecting the LORD's Messiah, they were committing the very act that was both an abomination to God and the means by which they would become desolate! Yeshua` Himself pronounced their verdict:
Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV
However, even in Yeshua`s prophecy, there is HOPE! " 'Til ye shall say, Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!" THAT'S the hope! When Yisra'el, particularly the Jews of Yerushalayim, shall say, "Welcome in the Name of YHVH!" THEN they shall see Yeshua` again!
And, the good news to you is this: The Jews ARE beginning to say that at the Western (Wailing) Wall because of the influence of groups like Jews for Jesus and the Messianic Movement! They are beginning to realize that Yeshua` WAS and IS the Messiah! They are beginning to make YHVH's Messiah THEIR Messiah!
There may be dangerous times coming, but to the believers, Jew and Gentile alike, these are EXCITING times! YESHUA` IS RETURNING, and His Father has committed all judgment into HIS hands! He will be responsible for the judgments to come! Do you really think He would let His children suffer His judgments?! Take heart, my friends, and lift up your heads!
Retrobyter
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RE: Are we entering the "Last Week" - 11/12/2008 4:51:30 AM
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mattj4792
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I think the birth pains already happened.
There is a man at my church who is a theologian who studies end times, and he believes that through all the symbolism and analogies, that these are the basics:
World war 1 and 2 were the birth pains of israel, which was born in 1948. The bible said it would become a nation in one day. it did, it said it would be born of many nations, it did (the UN)... it related the birth of israel to a jewish boy. saying that he will live 70 or 80 years if strong. So, 1948 + 13 (the year a jewish boy becomes a man) israel caught adolf eichmann, hitler's right hand man, and was also looked upon as a developed nation. a jewish boy goes off to war at age 19, and when israel turned 19, is had the 6 day war, a major turning point war for israel. A jewish man cannot become a man of peace until age 35... and when israel turned 35, the nation signed the camp david accords, a major peace treaty.
So if you do the math...if israel is strong, which it is, 1948+ 80= 2028 - 7 (for tribulation depending on if you believe pre trib or post trib, there is major evidence for both I believe)
So the latest the tribulation could possibly start is 2021.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
However that being said… I think we are either entering the last week or will very soon.
The bible tells us it will occur like a birth and believe me the pains are starting to come at an ever increasing rate.
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RE: Are we entering the "Last Week" - 11/12/2008 10:30:21 AM
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bob97
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From: Kansas
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Retro...once again thanks for you thoughts. They of course are new to many of us and they take time to digest so keep up your inputs. Brainteaser was expressing the same concept of a split week.
__________________________________________________________________________
Matt.. those thoughts are indeed interesting and worthy of consideration.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Are we entering the "Last Week" - 11/12/2008 11:51:12 AM
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SonicStudent
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quote:
I've said it once and I'll say it as many times as it takes to get someone to listen: When God stops accepting sacrifices, the sacrifices have ceased. Any additional attempts to sacrifice to the God who is no longer regarding sacrifice are just useless butcherings. According to Hebrews 10:16-22,...
Thanks Retro
As bob said, this takes time to input, as for so many years the 70th week has been preached as future.
However, (and I can't express this enough, even though many try to make things fit) I could never express true faith in a belief that sacrifices will once again be accepted, as I 'fully' believe that Jesus satisfied 'ALL' requirements regarding ALL in ALL of everything required. So, in no way would I dismiss this idea, as of yet, nobody has given me a satisfactory reason for sacrifices to re-commence. And even if they did come up with an explanation, my spirit says NO! For me, Christ fulfilled all requirements. He did not say, 'IT IS ALMOST FINISHED'.
And God the Father did not rip the curtain of the Temple down the middle, only to stitch it back together 2000 years or more later on!!!!! NO SORRY, It is accomplished, end of!!!
So i'm keeping this in my heart as a real possibility.
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Are we entering the "Last Week" - 11/12/2008 3:52:18 PM
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SonicStudent
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Looking at the type of Hype and adoration he is getting, and listening to the virtual worship of many Christians that defend him, even after he's mocked their very saviors words, It is shocking. I think personally we are seeing more than a dry run myself, although whether he's AC or not i'd not guess, but def a major player in the setting up of the One World kingdom that AC will only be too happy to take control of and force worship to his master!
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Are we entering the "Last Week" - 11/12/2008 4:39:34 PM
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Josh4LinC
Posts: 115
Joined: 11/11/2008
From: Minnesota
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Retro or anyone else that may know off the top of their heads,
In any of the other instances where the temple was destroyed and the Israelites were taken into captivity and what-not, did they continue sacrifices apart from the temple? Or did the sacrifices cease while they were in captivity? In other words, at some point did the sacrifices become dependent upon there being a temple? I haven't researched this, and I was wondering if any of you know.
While I subscribe to the full future-tense 70th week school of thought, I do acknowledge that Christ Jesus was the final sacrifice, once and for all sin. That I will never deny. However, seeing as Israel as never completely acknowledged Jesus as the Messiah, is it reasonable to say that if the temple is rebuilt that sacrifices would recommence if sacrifices had become dependent on there being a temple? This is purely an academic question, and I believe such a question relates greatly to the debate about the last week. And, yes, my knowledge of the Jewish culture and traditions is lacking.
Thanks in advance for any helpful responses.
_____________________________
In Christ Jesus,
Josh
“Well,” says one, “I like to be my own master.” Yes, and that involves two things;
first, you have a very bad master; and, next, your master has a fool for his servant.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Are we entering the "Last Week" - 11/12/2008 5:30:24 PM
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SonicStudent
Posts: 439
Joined: 10/20/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Josh4LinC
Retro or anyone else that may know off the top of their heads,
In any of the other instances where the temple was destroyed and the Israelites were taken into captivity and what-not, did they continue sacrifices apart from the temple? Or did the sacrifices cease while they were in captivity? In other words, at some point did the sacrifices become dependent upon there being a temple? I haven't researched this, and I was wondering if any of you know.
While I subscribe to the full future-tense 70th week school of thought, I do acknowledge that Christ Jesus was the final sacrifice, once and for all sin. That I will never deny. However, seeing as Israel as never completely acknowledged Jesus as the Messiah, is it reasonable to say that if the temple is rebuilt that sacrifices would recommence if sacrifices had become dependent on there being a temple? This is purely an academic question, and I believe such a question relates greatly to the debate about the last week. And, yes, my knowledge of the Jewish culture and traditions is lacking.
Thanks in advance for any helpful responses.
Hi Josh, blessings mate.
No, it is forbidden in the Torah to offer sacrifices while there is not a consecrated temple in Jerusalem.
Here is a statement from the Jewish websit www.beingjewish.com;
Once the Holy Temple was built, we were no longer permitted to bring sacrifices anywhere else.
And the clock could not be moved back. The earlier eras are gone, and cannot be restored. Once the Holy Temple was built, the Laws of all previous eras and situations were no longer relevant. That is what the Torah commands.
When King Solomon built the Holy Temple, he prayed that if the Jews get captured and taken away from the land of Israel, they should be able to pray and Hash em should hear their prayers, even when they are not at the Holy Temple (1 Kings 8:46-49). But he explicitly says pray, because outside of the Holy Temple we may not offer any sacrifices.
When the First Holy Temple was destroyed, there was no place to bring sacrifices. It was, in fact, forbidden to bring sacrifices, since there was no Temple. We then asked Hash em, how will we attain atonement? Hash em said, through Hosea: "Take words with you and return to Hash em. Say to Him, 'Forgive all sin and accept the good we do. We will offer prayer instead of animals" (Hosea 14:3).
So, where it is impossible to bring sacrifices, we can be forgiven through repentance and confession. But when it is possible to bring sacrifices, we are required to, and we must. As King David prophesied, "Do good, as You see fit, to Zion. May You rebuild the walls of Jerusalem. Then will You desire the sacrifices brought by the righteous, burnt offerings and whole offerings; bullocks will then be offered upon Your altar" (Psalms 51:20-21).
After seventy years of Babylonian Exile, just as the Prophet Daniel had promised, the exile ended. Many Jews returned to the Holy Land, and we once again built the Holy Temple. And still it was forbidden to bring sacrifices anywhere else.
Blessings to ya
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Are we entering the "Last Week" - 11/12/2008 7:29:53 PM
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Josh4LinC
Posts: 115
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From: Minnesota
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Thank you for the explanation, Sonic.
So, it is possible that if Israel is able to rebuild the temple on the temple mount in Jerusalem, then after the temple is reconstructed and consecrated the rites of sacrificing could be reinitiated. Am I understanding this correctly?
_____________________________
In Christ Jesus,
Josh
“Well,” says one, “I like to be my own master.” Yes, and that involves two things;
first, you have a very bad master; and, next, your master has a fool for his servant.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Are we entering the "Last Week" - 11/12/2008 7:47:18 PM
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SonicStudent
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From the Jewish non-believing in Christ point of view, the Jews would want to reinstate the sacrificial system and I'm sure they would if they re-built their temple on the mount in Jerusalem.
However, it wouldn't make a difference, because as you know, God has received and accepted the 'one true sacrifice' that the Jewish sacrificial system was only ever a shadow of anyway.
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Are we entering the "Last Week" - 11/12/2008 7:48:41 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
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From: Kansas
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Israel could reinstate sacrifice on their own but that doesn't mean that God condones or requires it. It’s the same with the temple…as far as I know God does not demand a temple prior to the millennium but of course Israel thinks it necessary to correctly worship God.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Are we entering the "Last Week" - 11/12/2008 8:20:09 PM
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SonicStudent
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Israel could reinstate sacrifice on their own but that doesn't mean that God condones or requires it. It’s the same with the temple…as far as I know God does not demand a temple prior to the millennium but of course Israel thinks it necessary to correctly worship God.
Bob
Exactly !!
The problem here is; Christian's mainly believe that there 'must indeed' be a 3rd temple built, because they see in the gospels and Daniel that 'the abomination that brings decelation' has to be set-up in an 'active, sacrificing' temple. But Christians should know that Jesus was the fulfilment of the sacrificial system. The system was a type and shadow that should have pointed the Jews to recognise Jesus as the lamb of God. The curtains torn forever, God is satisfied forever.
So we are left with only two options;
1. The Jews build a temple through ignorence, and the sacrifice is stopped and the abomination is set up in the temple. (Having said that, a sacrificial system set up instead of faith in Jesus' eternal sacrifice is an abomination in itself)
2. The scriptures here are not future, and were fulfilled before the 2nd temple was destroyed.
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Are we entering the "Last Week" - 11/12/2008 8:44:28 PM
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Josh4LinC
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Joined: 11/11/2008
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Right, I understand that God does not require sacrifice because Christ was the consummate sacrifice for all sin. However, in the context of Daniel's 70 weeks, the final week in particular, is it not a reasonable hypothesis that the sacrifices will be instituted in a newly constructed temple? It says nothing about God demanding it, but as we saw, the Jewish people rejected the prophesied Messiah when He first came. Therefore, there's no reason to think that if the temple is rebuilt sacrifices wouldn't also be reinstated.
I am pushing this issue, because there is this debate as to whether the final week is a whole continuous 7 years or if it has, indeed, been partially fulfilled. For instance, Daniel 9:24 - 27 says the following:
24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. 25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. 26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." [/i]
- This part I interpret as prophesying the Roman Empire's destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D.
- Now here is where I am trying to have understanding. Is the he this part is talking about referring to the future prince of the people who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D.? Or, is it referring to the Messiah? If it is the prince (or the AC) of those people then I would dare to venture that the final week is yet to come and will be signified by a 7-year convenant with the many people (or Israel). Does the Hebrew specify the pronoun used as referring to the Messiah or the future prince of the Roman people? I know the english in this case has "He" capitalized, but it seems that even when the punctuation doesn't call for it words are capitalized.
What are the various interpretations? What are people's thoughts?
_____________________________
In Christ Jesus,
Josh
“Well,” says one, “I like to be my own master.” Yes, and that involves two things;
first, you have a very bad master; and, next, your master has a fool for his servant.
- Charles Spurgeon
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RE: Are we entering the "Last Week" - 11/12/2008 9:50:12 PM
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SonicStudent
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Hi again Josh,
To be honest, i've been thrown a mental block on this also. Until yesterday, I always believed that, as you said, the final part about the prince making a peace deal for 7 years with the Jew's, and him breaking it half way and setting up the abomination and putting an end to sacrifices was all future.
However, even though I accepted this to be the official line, I always struggled with the fact that there would be the need for sacrifice anymore. Now you could say that it is re-built and sacrifice reinstated because the Jews having rejected Christ know no better. But the language used by both Daniel and Jesus, seems to indicate that it is an accepted and legitimate sacrificial system and temple that these things happen too. There is nothing in the language to suggest otherwise in my view.
Then yesterday, our brother Retro was showing us that Daniel's 70th week is a two halved prophecy, with the sacrifice being stopped, 'because God had received the sacrifice he required'. And the abomination that brought about Israel's desolation was the fact that the Jews rejected their own Messiah, so God left their house and land desolate.
40 is the number of testing in the bible, as it was for the children of Israel in the wilderness. 40 years they stayed stuck in the wilderness, but finally entered the promised land after this time because they finally trusted.
Likewise, Israel got a 40 year time of testing between killing their Messiah and coming to faith in Him for salvation. Once the 40 years of testing were up, then we saw the outcome of their murder and rejection of God's Messiah. Total destruction and desolation of Jerusalem and the Jewish nation.
So on Retro's prophetic understanding, that was fulfilled in Christ's cruxifiction and the Jews rejection. So there is no anti-Christ to enter into a 3rd Temple and make desolate, as it is in the past, and so we need not be looking for a 3rd temple etc.
Correct me if I miss quoted you retro.
_____________________________
"I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins." Isaiah 43:25
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RE: Are we entering the "Last Week" - 11/12/2008 10:17:10 PM
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Retrobyter
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From: Florida
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonicStudent
quote:
I've said it once and I'll say it as many times as it takes to get someone to listen: When God stops accepting sacrifices, the sacrifices have ceased. Any additional attempts to sacrifice to the God who is no longer regarding sacrifice are just useless butcherings. According to Hebrews 10:16-22,...
Thanks Retro
As bob said, this takes time to input, as for so many years the 70th week has been preached as future.
However, (and I can't express this enough, even though many try to make things fit) I could never express true faith in a belief that sacrifices will once again be accepted, as I 'fully' believe that Jesus satisfied 'ALL' requirements regarding ALL in ALL of everything required. So, in no way would I dismiss this idea, as of yet, nobody has given me a satisfactory reason for sacrifices to re-commence. And even if they did come up with an explanation, my spirit says NO! For me, Christ fulfilled all requirements. He did not say, 'IT IS ALMOST FINISHED'.
And God the Father did not rip the curtain of the Temple down the middle, only to stitch it back together 2000 years or more later on!!!!! NO SORRY, It is accomplished, end of!!!
So i'm keeping this in my heart as a real possibility.
Shalom, SonicStudent (and you, too, Bob!).
You can check out Qorbanot (Sacrifices) at the Judaism 101 website for a good list of the different types of sacrifices (Hebrew: Qorbanot).
Not all sacrifices are propitiary sacrifices that provide atonement for sin. Some sacrifices are thanks offerings (todot), peace offerings (zebach sh'lamim), meal offerings (minchot), and drink offerings (n'sekhim).
When Yeshua` was sacrificed for our propitiation, He took care of the burnt offering (olah), the sin offering (chatat), and the guilt offering (asham) for us forever; however, these other sacrifices are going to be re-instituted.
Furthermore, when the New Temple that the Messiah builds is dedicated, there will be the offering of the Red Heifer (parah adumah) which ritually makes the Temple kosher or clean. There will also probably be an initial burnt offering (olah) for the nation of Yisra'el more as a symbolic offering than to attach any true expiation for sin. The sacrifice represents submission to YHVH's will.
Sacrifices WILL be instituted in the New Temple, but not for atonement.
Retrobyter
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RE: Are we entering the "Last Week" - 11/12/2008 10:28:16 PM
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Dancre
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Well, children, the persecutions are starting:
http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1512
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,450884,00.html
But KNOW!!!!!!!!!! you stand in your Father's hand. My pastor talked about 2 Kings 6:8-18 tonight. Elisha's servant freaked out when he saw the army of man. But when Elisha prayed, the servant saw the REAL army, the army of God!!! So know that there are more who are with us than against us!!! God is in control, He won't let us down!!! This is going to be a wonderful and incredible, miraculous ride!!!!
kim
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RE: Are we entering the "Last Week" - 11/12/2008 10:47:36 PM
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bob97
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From: Kansas
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I have to ask this question...Has the gospel been preached to all the world and to all nations and if it has why is the Church still making an effort to fulfill the commands of Christ?
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Mat 24:14
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Are we entering the "Last Week" - 11/12/2008 10:55:10 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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Shalom, Josh4LinC.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Josh4LinC
Right, I understand that God does not require sacrifice because Christ was the consummate sacrifice for all sin. However, in the context of Daniel's 70 weeks, the final week in particular, is it not a reasonable hypothesis that the sacrifices will be instituted in a newly constructed temple? It says nothing about God demanding it, but as we saw, the Jewish people rejected the prophesied Messiah when He first came. Therefore, there's no reason to think that if the temple is rebuilt sacrifices wouldn't also be reinstated.
I am pushing this issue, because there is this debate as to whether the final week is a whole continuous 7 years or if it has, indeed, been partially fulfilled. For instance, Daniel 9:24 - 27 says the following:
24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy. 25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times. 26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." [/i]
- This part I interpret as prophesying the Roman Empire's destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D.
- Now here is where I am trying to have understanding. Is the he this part is talking about referring to the future prince of the people who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 A.D.? Or, is it referring to the Messiah? If it is the prince (or the AC) of those people then I would dare to venture that the final week is yet to come and will be signified by a 7-year convenant with the many people (or Israel). Does the Hebrew specify the pronoun used as referring to the Messiah or the future prince of the Roman people? I know the english in this case has "He" capitalized, but it seems that even when the punctuation doesn't call for it words are capitalized.
What are the various interpretations? What are people's thoughts?
The "he" of verse 27 CANNOT refer to the "prince who is to come" (nor the AC) because that "prince" is within a prepositional phrase! The antecedent of a pronoun cannot go back to the object of a preposition! That's true for English AND IT IS TRUE FOR HEBREW! The subject of the previous sentence is the PEOPLE of the prince, not the prince himself. The last singular person who is addressed as the subject of a sentence is found in verse 26 and is the Messiah; therefore, the Messiah is the antecedent of the pronoun "he."
The way that Hebrew thought works is somewhat different than our Western way of thinking. Many times, important things and summaries are listed first rather than be listed chronologically. In verse 26, it mentions the "people of the prince" destroying the city (Yerushalayim) and the sanctuary (the Temple) and then goes on to tell how desolations are determined all the way to the end of the war which will be signified by a flood; however, then the narrative goes back to the middle of the week which was encountered PRIOR to the end of the war. Thus, the sacrifices were halted after the first three and a half years of the last "seven."
The word "Then" which starts verse 27 in the above translation of Dani'el's prophecy is an occupational hazard of the process of translation. No Hebrew word translates to this word "Then" supplied by the translator. The translator was attempting to make his results coherent to Western ears, but in this particular case, other translations (like the KJV)would be more accurate. Verse 27 does NOT follow verse 26 chronologically, consequently the inclusion of the word "Then" is a human error introduced into the English text. That's okay. We believe that the ORIGINAL AUTOGRAPHS of God's messengers and prophets were verbally inspired by God; however, we have no such guarantees for translations, because translators are human and they are never said to be verbally inspired by God. They do the best that they can but we modern-day believers must just realize that every translation is a work of man and is therefore susceptible to human error. (That's why it's a good idea to study the original languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek!)
Hope this answers your questions.
Retrobyter
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RE: Are we entering the "Last Week" - 11/12/2008 11:19:59 PM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Sorry Retro but I have some discrepancy here that needs to be resolved:
Title: New Commentary on the Whole Bible: Old Testament Volume
Edition: Third
27 he shall confirm the covenant—The identity of the one confirming the covenant here is difficult to discern. Interpreters have often connected this with the restoration to be made by the Messiah; he would come to confirm the covenant between Israel and God (Isa. 42:6; cf. Jer. 31:31-34; Dan. 11:30, 32; Mal. 3:1; Luke 22:20). Such a confirmation of God’s relationship with his people would surely have given comfort to those who were persecuted during the time of Antiochus, the Antichrist of the third kingdom. Normally, however, the last available antecedent is taken as the subject of the following verb. If true in this case, the one who makes the covenant here is “the prince” (9:26) who destroyed the city of Jerusalem. Thus, the enemy of God’s cause is in mind here, not the Messiah. This is borne out by the word used here for “covenant” (Heb. gāḇar); this word is generally used in contexts where an agreement is forced on someone by a party of superior strength (Baldwin). in the midst of the week—i.e., in the middle of the final week of the seventy (see notes on 9:24, 25). It might be better rendered, “in the middle of the week” (NASB, NIV), referring to the first three and a half years of the seven-year period in question. This passage never mentions the final three-and-a-half-year period (cf. 12:11) of the seventy weeks. he shall cause the sacrifice . . . to cease—The enemy of God here is able to stop the worship of God for a period of three and a half years. Such a ban on the sacrifices and offerings was made during the third kingdom by Antiochus (8:11; 11:31), but this points to a similar disruption of the sacrifices during the fourth kingdom. for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate—A comparison of translations indicates the extreme difficulty of this phrase: “on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate” (NASB, cf. NEB); “And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination of desolation” (NIV); “in their place shall be an abomination that desolates” (NRSV). These translations either interpret the abominations as accompanying the one about to desolate the holy city (NASB, NEB) or identify the “overspreading” or “wings” as a location at which the abomination will be set up (NIV, NRSV). The term “abomination” (Heb. šiqqûṣı̂m) is often used to describe idolatry and could imply anything contrary to God’s law of which God’s people should be ashamed. Antiochus Epiphanes introduced such an abomination to the temple; this was represented in one of Daniel’s prior visions (8:13). This adds to the parallels between Antiochus and the Antichrist of the fourth kingdom.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Are we entering the "Last Week" - 11/12/2008 11:24:13 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 443
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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Shalom, Bob.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
I have to ask this question...Has the gospel been preached to all the world and to all nations and if it has why is the Church still making an effort to fulfill the commands of Christ?
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Mat 24:14
Bob
In my opinion, the "gospel" has NOT been "preached" to all the world, yet. The reason for this failure is that the message has become garbled at best! The Gospel of the Kingdom is NOT THE SAME as the Gospel that most accept as defined by I Cor. 15:1-4! To the contrary, to really understand what the Jews understood and heard when the Gospel of the Kingdom was heralded to them, one must go back to the only Bible they had in the first century! The TANAKH (a Hebrew acronym for Torah, Navi'im [prophets], and Ketuvim [writings]), what we call the "Old Testament," was all they knew as God's Word when Yochanan the Submerger and Yeshua` and their students were heralding this Gospel! Notice how early we encounter this Gospel of the Kingdom in Mark 1:14 and 15:
Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV
No explanation, no description, and no questions! Yeshua` assumed the Jews to whom He was speaking KNEW what the Gospel (Good News) of the Kingdom was, and they did not question Him about it! All knew that He was speaking about Yesha`yahu's (Isaiah's) prophecy! So, what WAS the Gospel (Good News) of the Kingdom?
Isa 52:7
7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation (rescue); that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
KJV
If you ask most Christians today what the "Kingdom of God" is, they will give you some answer that will include the "church" as a part of that answer. What did they know about a "church" in the time period of Mark 1:14-15?! There was no such organization or entity called the "church" at that time! The definition of the Kingdom of God and consequently its Good News or Gospel must of necessity be in terms we can ONLY find in the Tanakh! That's why I say that the message has been garbled. The message should be some "good news" that would be exciting and joyful to any Jew of Yeshua`s day!
So, my answer is, no, we have yet to spread the good news about the coming Kingdom of God under His Representative, His Son, the Messiah Yeshua`.
(As an aside, IMO, that's why we have no true power from God associated with our message. God gave His power through miracles to VALIDATE the message! If we're not heralding the right mes | | |
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