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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/20/2008 7:29:59 AM
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_jjp_
Posts: 631
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
I pray they don't get the bailout they are seeking. IF we have that much money to give away I prefer seeing it given to the poor, the homeless, the families of military men and women who are putting their life on the line everyday . That would be a payout I could vote for.
First off we don't atually have the money to spread around.
While i am not a fan of the bailouts, giving the money to the poor, homeless, or whoever while letting American companies go belly up would only lead to us having to purchase more from foreign sources, boosting their economy while ours fades. You also have to remember that many of the poor and homeless didn't get there due to inability to make money but more often due to the inability to manage it and their lives. I think money should be given to strong companies to help them through these trying times so when we emerge on the other side of it we are posed to excel.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/20/2008 8:45:29 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6348
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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Seems like they were just told NO.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/20/2008 9:27:41 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2350
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: online
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quote:
While i am not a fan of the bailouts, giving the money to the poor, homeless, or whoever while letting American companies go belly up would only lead to us having to purchase more from foreign sources, boosting their economy while ours fades. You also have to remember that many of the poor and homeless didn't get there due to inability to make money but more often due to the inability to manage it and their lives. I think money should be given to strong companies to help them through these trying times so when we emerge on the other side of it we are posed to excel.
I don't like it but if you're going to make a case for it that is a decent case.
quote:
It does not sound to me like they really want help. It sounds like they just want money. All the people here will lose their jobs and those jobs will be given to Brazilians. They really need to stop pretending to plead for the people and just say they want it for their pockets.
I don't know what exactly they intend for Brazil. In the case of the Opel for example it would make no sense to make them here when they sell in Europe. They are building a 300 million factory in Russia:
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081107/AUTO01/811070446/1148
quote:
General Motors Corp. opened a $300 million factory in Russia, Bloomberg News reported today.
Located on the outskirts of St. Petersburg, the plant will produce 70,000 Chevrolet Captiva sport utility vehicles and the Opel Astra, with plans to manufacture the Chevrolet Cruze compact car next year, the Detroit automaker said.
"Our strategy is to become the leading manufacturer in Russia," Carl-Peter Forster, GM's chief for Europe, told reporters during the plant opening today. "For us Russia is not an emerging market. Russia emerged long ago."
_____________________________
-Roger
I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/20/2008 12:49:11 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4409
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CNN is reporting this today and while I'm shaking my head, it does amuse me a little to see how blind these auto company bigwigs are.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/19/autos.ceo.jets/index.html
quote:
"There is a delicious irony in seeing private luxury jets flying into Washington, D.C., and people coming off of them with tin cups in their hand, saying that they're going to be trimming down and streamlining their businesses," Rep. Gary Ackerman, D-New York, told the chief executive officers of Ford, Chrysler and General Motors at a hearing of the House Financial Services Committee.
"It's almost like seeing a guy show up at the soup kitchen in high hat and tuxedo. It kind of makes you a little bit suspicious."
He added, "couldn't you all have downgraded to first class or jet-pooled or something to get here? It would have at least sent a message that you do get it."
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/20/2008 12:51:43 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 605
Joined: 7/17/2005
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I think the only legitimate solution is to let the companies go into bankruptcy. Then, we can get rid of the overpaid management and the overpaid workers. When the CEO's show up begging for money in their private jets, it shows how out of touch with reality they are. On the other hand, when the union insists that some employees get paid for doing nothing, the workers are out of touch as well. The factories won't disappear with bankruptcy, but some of the management and workers will.
Problem solved.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/20/2008 1:19:10 PM
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JMiller
Posts: 12
Joined: 6/9/2005
From: Tampa Bay Fla USA
Status: offline
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blessedinnyc
Thanks for the link it was a good read
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/20/2008 2:57:05 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 2003
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
I think the only legitimate solution is to let the companies go into bankruptcy. Then, we can get rid of the overpaid management and the overpaid workers. When the CEO's show up begging for money in their private jets, it shows how out of touch with reality they are. On the other hand, when the union insists that some employees get paid for doing nothing, the workers are out of touch as well. The factories won't disappear with bankruptcy, but some of the management and workers will.
Problem solved.
It appears that the Democrats are going to ask GM to come back to Congress in December with a business plan before they vote on a bail-out.
IMHO, this is the first common-sense move that congress has made on a high-profile issue in several years. If they keep this up, their approval rating might start slowly crawling its way back up to the 50% mark.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/20/2008 9:22:21 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5940
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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People who can fly their personal jets to beg for money don't need a bailout they need to be shown the door... It's a waste of money to entertain these bozos...
_____________________________
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Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/20/2008 10:40:56 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 631
Joined: 10/25/2007
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I am thinking about buying a majority stake in GM stocks. I found $10 in a jacket pocket. 
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/21/2008 8:50:12 AM
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Acts29
Posts: 369
Joined: 1/14/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
CNN is reporting this today and while I'm shaking my head, it does amuse me a little to see how blind these auto company bigwigs are.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/19/autos.ceo.jets/index.html
quote:
"There is a delicious irony in seeing private luxury jets flying into Washington, D.C., and people coming off of them with tin cups in their hand, saying that they're going to be trimming down and streamlining their businesses," Rep. Gary Ackerman, D-New York, told the chief executive officers of Ford, Chrysler and General Motors at a hearing of the House Financial Services Committee.
"It's almost like seeing a guy show up at the soup kitchen in high hat and tuxedo. It kind of makes you a little bit suspicious."
He added, "couldn't you all have downgraded to first class or jet-pooled or something to get here? It would have at least sent a message that you do get it."
I do not have a problem with this at all. They already own the private planes. It would be a waste to pay for commercial airlines and let the private plane sit.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/21/2008 9:54:35 AM
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garsyt
Posts: 2212
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From: the bottom of the laundry basket
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The problem comes not with the fact that they own the planes. The problem comes with the fact that those planes cost money to fly, to pay the pilot, for jet fuel, upkeep. I own a car, but if I could carpool on a regular basis to save me some wear and tear on my car and the fuel to drive it - that would be the most budget conscious thing for me to do. People looking for money need to show those they are asking that they are already looking for ways to make cuts in the budget.
Blessings,
Garsy
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/21/2008 9:59:04 AM
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Miss Giggles
Posts: 4413
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: MI
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This is standard business practice, but is ironic because they probably all flew out of the same airport. LOL
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/21/2008 10:37:11 AM
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JMiller
Posts: 12
Joined: 6/9/2005
From: Tampa Bay Fla USA
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_jjp_
quote:
I am thinking about buying a majority stake in GM
stocks. I found $10 in a jacket pocket.
LOL LOL LOL, GOOD ONE _jjp_
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/21/2008 11:39:40 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 605
Joined: 7/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Acts29
I do not have a problem with this at all. They already own the private planes. It would be a waste to pay for commercial airlines and let the private plane sit.
The problem is, the cost of the fuel alone for the trip is more than a first class ticket. Heck, when airlines cannot even afford their planes, corporate jets make little sense. For most executives it is a fancy toy, paid for at the expense of the stockholders. The fact that someone would use a private jet to beg for money claiming that they are broke means that they are clueless. They don't deserve a dime, and we should let the company go bankrupt so they lose their jobs. Then we can bring in new managers and new workers to run the plants.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/21/2008 11:58:08 AM
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mavrick
Posts: 71
Joined: 6/20/2006
From: The Danger Zone
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If the Big 3 are looking for money to 'tide them over' until they can get viable again, and if as so many in Congress are saying - 'this is only a loan, not a bailout', why aren't they just going to some of the Big Banks to get loans?
The Fed and Treasury have seen to it that the banks have all the liquidity they need "to get credit flowing".
Seems like a perfect opportunity for the free market to front the loans, if these companies are truly worth saving.
And even with the recent banking industry bailout, I still trust the market to best make decisions about where loans should be made than I do the federal government.
_____________________________
"Never Leave Your Wingman"
"In this world you will have trouble. But fear not; I have overcome the world."
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/28/2008 11:07:46 AM
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Rockwall
Posts: 465
Joined: 8/18/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
CNN is reporting this today and while I'm shaking my head, it does amuse me a little to see how blind these auto company bigwigs are.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/19/autos.ceo.jets/index.html
GM has chosen to go underground so they can't be tracked while flying in their private jet. How do you like the "other people do it too" excuse? How pathetic and they should be allowed to go bankrupt.
quote:
GM Asks U.S. FAA to Bar Public Tracking of Leased Corporate Jet
Nov. 27 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp., criticized by U.S. lawmakers for its use of corporate jets, asked aviation regulators to block the public’s ability to track a plane it uses.
“We availed ourselves of the option as others do to have the aircraft removed” from a Federal Aviation Administration tracking service, a GM spokesman, Greg Martin, said yesterday in an interview. He declined to discuss why GM made the request.
Flight data show that the leased Gulfstream Aerospace G-IV jet flew Nov. 18 from Detroit to Washington, where Chief Executive Officer Richard Wagoner Jr. spoke to a Senate committee that day and a House panel the next day on behalf of a $25 billion auto-industry rescue plan.
Source LINK
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/28/2008 3:20:21 PM
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relady
Posts: 1216
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
The Fed and Treasury have seen to it that the banks have all the liquidity they need "to get credit flowing". and yet, the credit is not flowing. In fact, retailers are going to be in quite a spot in the spring if credit doesn't open up because they won't have the money to order their fall/winter lines. This has the potential to be worse than we can imagine if someone somewhere doesn't kick the banks and get them lending money again.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 11/30/2008 3:43:32 PM
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iknownothing
Posts: 23
Joined: 6/10/2005
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I think the GM management has been totally incompetent, and the workers are going to end up paying for all of their poor decisions. I believe that if we bail them out, then GM should be required to break the union contracts and use the same contracts that the workers in the transplant assembly plants (like Toyota and Honda) work under.
However, since the Democrats are in charge, I know that this is never going to happen; this is because the UAW is one of the Democrat's most important constituents. Barney Frank has even declared that he will refuse to break the union for a bailout.
But I don't really feel sorry for GM. The GM management has shown that they are incapable of competently serving the American market. In fact, they almost seem to do a better job of serving the foreign market (especially Europe).
The GEO Prizm is a perfect example. I owned two of these vehicles in succession over a period of almost ten years, and I loved them. They were basically a copy of the Toyota Corolla, with a Toyota engine and drive-train, but they were assembled in the U.S. and sported a Chevy "bow tie" nameplate. For me, these vehicles were great basic transportation: comfortable, economical, well-performing, reliable, and fun to drive.
Since GM had such a great car, what do you suppose they did with it a few years ago? Well, they killed it, naturally. Apparently, in the view of GM management, the Geo Prizm did not make high enough profits, and instead of maintaining their partnership with Toyota, GM wanted to keep making the big high-profit gas guzzlers. But the problem is that when the gas-crunch came last summer, they could not sell the gas guzzlers. So while the Americans flocked to Toyota dealers to buy their high-mileage cars, the GM dealerships turned into mausoleums.
I sometimes wonder what could have happened if GM kept making the Geo/Chevy Prizms, and kept improving them. Maybe if they kept their partnership ship with Toyota, they could have worked together to help GM put out a hybrid version of the Prizm. But the GM management did not have the forethought.
Another big mistake GM made over the decades was to roll over for the exorbitant wage and benefit demands made by the UAW. It was NOT inevitable for UAM to drive GM to near bankruptcy, if the GM management had the stones to stand up to the UAW.
There is another company that did that, and they turned out just find, and are still profitable. This company is called Caterpiller. Go to this link to see how Caterpiller did this:
http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/will-the-uaw-at-chrysler-do-another-caterpiller-ar45836.html
But here are a couple of paragraphs from the story:
"In 1991, the UAW struck Caterpiller. The UAW wanted a “pattern” contract, one like that signed at John Deere. But, Caterpiller‘s global market was being hammered by recession, foreign competition, and a depressed the market for construction equipment. It had sustained a huge loss when the UAW went on strike almost a decade earlier. By 1991, however, Caterpiller was losing as much as $1 million per day even though it’s plant modernization had drastically cut the workforce, with UAW membership reduced from 40,500 to 15,100. Caterpiller offered the UAW a contract with a two-tier wage scale, flexible work rules, and no wage increase. The UAW rejected it, and went on strike at two major Caterpiller plants.
Is this beginning to sound familiar?
What followed was a titanic labor battle, which the UAW ultimately lost. Twice they went out on strike against Caterpiller, and twice they called of the strike – the second after 17 months. Caterpiller kept production going with salaried employees and replacement workers, and eventually with many union members who crossed the picket line. Caterpiller also regained profitability."
_____________________________
"If he does that, he will be the greatest man in the world." - King George III's response upon hearing of George Washington's retirement to Mount Vernon (and not seeking a crown).
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 12/1/2008 11:03:33 AM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 680
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
Status: offline
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quote:
and yet, the credit is not flowing.
I think it depends on who you are. I have good credit. I can get credit cards and loans at a decent rate, however, I choose not to. i know many who choose not to. I also think the banks are gonna be more cautious of who they lend to. If someone has been late on their bills, doesn't have a steady job history, is already over extended in their obligations, why give them ANY credit. Credit is EARNED not DESERVED. It's really that simple.
G
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It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 12/1/2008 9:46:38 PM
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relady
Posts: 1216
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: offline
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quote:
I can get credit cards and loans at a decent rate, however, I choose not to. i know many who choose not to. RETAIL credit is flowing. It's the commercial credit lines that are NOT flowing as they should be and that's what businesses rely on. It's not flowing much at all from what I can ascertain. Unless it starts soon, it's gunna be a ginormous mess, worse than it already is.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 12/1/2008 10:00:48 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 680
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
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quote:
it's gunna be a ginormous mess, worse than it already is.
Do you think the banks will just start giving out money if they don't think they are gonna get paid back. For instance why would a bank lend money to The Big 3 if they don't think that the big 3 will be able to pay their money back, or why should the bank lend to the new buisness owner if they don't think the money will return.
G
_____________________________
It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 12/1/2008 11:05:22 PM
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HighPlainsDrifter
Posts: 1300
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: The Great Sioux Empire
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Maybe the 20,000 domestic troops can force credit out of the banks.
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 12/2/2008 9:38:25 AM
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JMiller
Posts: 12
Joined: 6/9/2005
From: Tampa Bay Fla USA
Status: offline
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This is a problem that affects almost only the state of Michigan, therefore let the state of Michigan bail them out they can at least put up a significant portion of the bail monies, as that state is operating on a surplus
of funds, according to cafrman.
http://www.cafrman.com/Articles/Art-MI-S1.htm
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RE: GM Bail-Out? - 12/2/2008 10:34:26 AM
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Miss Giggles
Posts: 4413
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: MI
Status: offline
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You are extremely naive if you think it only affects the state of Michigan. GM is a global company.
I am from there, however I am not in favor of a bail-out. A massive reorg, but not a bailout.
If we do have a surplus, than that's a well kept secret, they want everyone here to think we are on the verge of everyone being homeless.
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