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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/3/2008 9:38:19 PM
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huangshan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
As for expectations of a president, certainly, they should be lofty. I want a leader, but you and I disagree on how a leader is made or even how he/she manifests.
I take it you were not a Reagan fan. 
I'm an Eisenhower, Johnson, Nixon, Bush 41 fan. I do not like Kennedy or Reagan. I think Carter got unlucky and Clinton got lucky with situations outside their control that colored the perception of their administrations, but I think both were average or slightly above.
I am not at all a fan of Bush 43. I probably would have been happy with Romney, but it's kind of hard to tell with him.
American, being a democracy of sorts, tends to overvalue charisma. I think this is a huge mistake. It's nothing that can be fixed without massive changes in how people perceive and react to people or changes in the political apparatus that could very well destroy democracy, so I think it's here to stay. But it's still a tragedy. Charisma and appearance are important to a degree, but they are no where near as important as... well, almost everything else that's relevant.
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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/3/2008 10:10:19 PM
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bzirk
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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People down through the ages have put a premium on charisma, and when I say charisma, I mean the ability someone has to inspire people to follow him/her, who can frame a vision and make listeners feel they are part of something worthwhile. No matter how intelligent someone may be or how well they might be able to analyze a situation, if they do not have this ability, they are not going to be able to lead. This is true for most who have held leadership positions (political or otherwise) throughout history. Frankly, this is McCain's weakness. Bush 43 has the same weakness. They simply do not communicate effectively. But Palin has this down in spades.
Is this charisma enough? No, it's not. There has to be some good sense to go along with it. Thankfully, she's got that too even if she doesn't have the pedigree of Obama and Biden.
As for Obama , he has the charisma, but his sense or rather his ideology of how government should be effected is troubling. Hey, I'm not a big fan of McCain either, but his ideology is nearer good sense.
Having said all of that, I do agree that too much is made of packaging. Americans do tend to consume what looks good (or rather what's made to look good) to the point of letting their sense become eclipsed.
BTW, I respect that you're not confident in Palin. We disagree on that, but it's not the end of the world that we do.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/3/2008 10:16:58 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2915
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
Eisenhower, Johnson, Nixon, Bush 41
Interesting list. I'm trying to find the common thread among these four.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/4/2008 5:01:41 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 766
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
I asked because you sound very confident about what makes a good leader. I was wondering how you were so sure of that.
I have a casual interest in politics and history. As it happens, I have invested a little time in qualities of leaders that I admire, or at least, feel are worthy of imitation in some respects.
For example, I earlier stated that I was a fan of Richard Nixon. I'm not a fan of his means of getting elected, I'm not sympathetic to the ideologies of his constituency, but when her performed the duties of his office, he was willing to understand complexity, see shades of gray and get his hands dirty to get results. The shiniest jewel of his legacy is China. Ignoring, shunning China was one of the biggest mistakes of the people who came before.
One of my biggest gripes with politics today is the disgusting reduction of everything to black and white terms. Using those terms in political speech is a political reality, and Nixon was no exception, but he was willing to be a hypocrite in an ultimately beneficial way. It's one thing to say "they hate us for our freedoms" and another thing to act like that's actually the case.
Nixon, for all his flaws, understood problems and worked towards solutions. The current administration casts problems in political terms and believes their own rhetoric (though this has changed in the past year and a half or so). I do not see a change of this course from either McCain or Palin.
quote:
Having said all of that, I do agree that too much is made of packaging. Americans do tend to consume what looks good (or rather what's made to look good) to the point of letting their sense become eclipsed.
BTW, I respect that you're not confident in Palin. We disagree on that, but it's not the end of the world that we do.
I simply don't see much that's special about Sarah Palin and a lot that is very average Jane. There's a popular refrain of people saying that they can identify with her. I could be wrong but I think I recall you saying something similar. This desire to have people at our level... it's self-destructive. We should want to elevate the best, the brightest, the ones most likely to understand problems and work to solve them in effective manners. Not people who don't read newspapers, not people who seek to reduce everything to simple yes/no, good/evil dichotomies.
I hope you don't feel that I'm being uncivil. I feel that you're wrong, just as I assume you feel I am, and though I'm sure we're both unlikely to change each others' minds, I hope that some seeds of doubt might be planted in your mind or those of people reading but not commenting. I respect you, but I also respectfully disagree with you.
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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/4/2008 5:09:33 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1697
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quote:
I simply don't see much that's special about Sarah Palin and a lot that is very average Jane. There's a popular refrain of people saying that they can identify with her. I could be wrong but I think I recall you saying something similar. This desire to have people at our level... it's self-destructive. We should want to elevate the best, the brightest, the ones most likely to understand problems and work to solve them in effective manners. Not people who don't read newspapers, not people who seek to reduce everything to simple yes/no, good/evil dichotomies.
I think one of the reasons that people here identify with Sarah Palin is that she is willing to talk with them. She has gotten where she is by engaging her community, her state, and now trying to engage the nation. She does read newspapers. I read something where her sister indicated that, even as a child, Sarah wuold sit and read the news paper from cover to cover, corner to corner. And not just read it, but analyze it and discuss it. Another reaason we identify with her is that her yes is yes and her no is no. She is not like most politicians who change the meaning of the message depending on the audience
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/4/2008 8:13:56 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3396
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From: my mom by God
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quote:
I don't want a regular Joe (or Jane) with a good head. I want an exceptional person who knows what he or she is doing.
I disagree. I'd take a good ol' christian with good ol' biblical sence over any intellectual, any idol or icon. I'd take the farmer over the professor any day. I have known both and while I respect the intellectual, I'll take the simple person everytime.
quote:
and Clinton got lucky
Ya know...I just hadda...just hadda.
Sseriously, Clinton changed politics. He so wanted a legacy and this is it. He proved without a doubt you can lie through your teeth and people will elect you. You can shout liberalism till the cows come home..and support the middle and get elected. The perfect liar.
The perfect politician.
I have heard it said that since women got the vote no bald man has been elected..though you could say Eisenhour....though his baldness is negated by that uniform..ya know, uniforms do trump no hair.
quote:
Nixon, for all his flaws, understood problems and worked towards solutions.
Wage and price controls? Watergate? Please, I prefer my communists to be in China, not the presidency.
quote:
We should want to elevate the best, the brightest
The problem with bright people, esspecially in government is..they will want to impliment something. I'd rather have the federal government in Washington 4 months out of the year, little pay and doing nothing than a buncha intellectuals figuring my life out for me.
You betcha.
Sarah Palin? I doubt she would be a candidate in 2012/16 unless McCain wins. She would have time to prove herself then. If not, the liberal media has already placed her firmly in the crosshairs of their inuendo machine.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/4/2008 8:17:41 AM
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bzirk
Posts: 2915
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
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huangshan,
Us average people may be saying we identify with her, and certainly, there are aspects of her that many of us can identify with, but she's about as average as an orchid in winter. She is the rare individual who truly has the ability to inspire and unite. I give her big time kudos for what she's done even in the face of great opposition (and I'm including the mainstream media). McCain may not win this time, but Sarah Palin will be back.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/4/2008 8:28:55 AM
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wing2000
Posts: 1029
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quote:
The problem with bright people, esspecially in government is..they will want to impliment something.
....you mean like those Wall Street gurus who packaged those mortgage "backed" securities? (on and btw, they don't work for the gov. :)
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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/4/2008 8:31:38 AM
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wing2000
Posts: 1029
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
McCain may not win this time, but Sarah Palin will be back.
...yes, she could easily occupy a Senate seat for a term or two (rumor has it Alaska needs some honest senators..)...and then run for President.
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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/4/2008 9:52:02 AM
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Dubya
Posts: 1019
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
quote:
McCain may not win this time, but Sarah Palin will be back.
...yes, she could easily occupy a Senate seat for a term or two (rumor has it Alaska needs some honest senators..)...and then run for President.
Why is a US Senate background suddenly necessary?
Clinton didn't have it.
Carter didn't have it
Neither Bushs had it
Reagan didn't
Eisenhower didn't
on an on.
Why is it necessary now?
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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/4/2008 11:22:17 AM
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FreddieD
Posts: 299
Joined: 7/23/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
...yes, she could easily occupy a Senate seat for a term or two (rumor has it Alaska needs some honest senators..)...and then run for President.
You people are out of touch with reality it is pathetic. You probably don't read the news or you may notice that she has a 51% unfavorable rating and 75% feel she is unfit to lead America.
After the election if McCaim losses, which is must likely, she will disappear into obscurity. There is no reason to believe that she has any qualifications or will obtain any in the future. She is just an opportunist. Being Governor of Alaska with a population less than must major cities is no big deal.
But it is the rejection of the facts that makes me wonder about your sanity. Look at the polls. People in this time of crisis don't want "Joe-six-pack" as their leader. They want some one who knows something, and Palin is an expect on nothing. If you believe she is than name one and use some facts this time.
You act as though McCaim has been a drag on her campaign and not the other way around. The RNC is going have to think long and hard in the future of allowing social conservatives through the door.
For your entertainment: Palin, Gay "Choices" & Trade Missions
FreddieD
< Message edited by FreddieD -- 10/4/2008 11:30:24 AM >
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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/4/2008 1:36:09 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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Should Nobama be elected and the dems obtain a super-majority, the 2010 election should be a thing to watch.
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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/4/2008 2:02:43 PM
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letusreason
Posts: 815
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreddieD
quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
...yes, she could easily occupy a Senate seat for a term or two (rumor has it Alaska needs some honest senators..)...and then run for President.
You people are out of touch with reality it is pathetic. You probably don't read the news or you may notice that she has a 51% unfavorable rating and 75% feel she is unfit to lead America.
After the election if McCaim losses, which is must likely, she will disappear into obscurity. There is no reason to believe that she has any qualifications or will obtain any in the future. She is just an opportunist. Being Governor of Alaska with a population less than must major cities is no big deal.
But it is the rejection of the facts that makes me wonder about your sanity. Look at the polls. People in this time of crisis don't want "Joe-six-pack" as their leader. They want some one who knows something, and Palin is an expect on nothing. If you believe she is than name one and use some facts this time.
You act as though McCaim has been a drag on her campaign and not the other way around. The RNC is going have to think long and hard in the future of allowing social conservatives through the door.
For your entertainment: Palin, Gay "Choices" & Trade Missions
FreddieD
That link was a hatefilled diatribe by an angry self-admitted homosexual who thrives on absorbing what NPR radio and Salon.com feeds him.
What validity does it have except to prove that the guy has an axe to grind against conservative Christians?
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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/4/2008 4:57:17 PM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 554
Joined: 1/18/2008
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Game Changers
From what I've read lately, McCain's taking (some) of the advice in this article and going 100% negative in his ads & rhetoric.
NY Times
I don't think that's going to work out as he expects.
The nasty well has pretty much run dry.
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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/4/2008 5:02:11 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2915
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
Game Changers
From what I've read lately, McCain's taking (some) of the advice in this article and going 100% negative in his ads & rhetoric.
NY Times
I don't think that's going to work out as he expects.
The nasty well has pretty much run dry.
Unless human nature has changed, I seriously doubt that, and judging by some of the ads that have been run on McCain, he hasn't cornered the market.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/4/2008 5:06:23 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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So, bringing up The Messiah's relationship with Pentagon bomber William Ayers, his doctrinal underpinnings from Sal Alinksi's "Rules for Radicals," his total lack of support for his half-brother when he claims he is his brother's keeper, his dealings with Chicago slumlord Rezko, et al is going negative?
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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/4/2008 7:30:01 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1589
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: The North Woods
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quote:
Should Nobama be elected and the dems obtain a super-majority, the 2010 election should be a thing to watch.
Believe it or not, I agree.
Whenever a new majority party swings into office promising fresh air and sunshine, the onus is on them to deliver.
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/5/2008 1:22:18 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1697
Joined: 4/8/2005
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I found that the Minneapolis Star-Tribune had a poll anoundced today saying that Al Franken has taken a lead over Norm Coleman. Who did they survey? Did they include anyone from outside the twin cities? Do they have an agenda seeing as they tend to be left leaning in their editorials?
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/5/2008 1:44:24 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3396
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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quote:
the rejection of the facts that makes me wonder about your sanity. Look at the polls.
Since when do polls reflect reality or fact...??
quote:
The RNC is going have to think long and hard in the future of allowing social conservatives through the door.
The problem with the republican party is that they have let moderates through the door.
Ya know why this campaign is probably the most negative one in recent memory? Its pretty simple...neither candidate are very good. Lotsa ammunition.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/5/2008 4:43:06 AM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 554
Joined: 1/18/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
So, bringing up The Messiah's relationship with Pentagon bomber William Ayers, his doctrinal underpinnings from Sal Alinksi's "Rules for Radicals," his total lack of support for his half-brother when he claims he is his brother's keeper, his dealings with Chicago slumlord Rezko, et al is going negative?
Sure.
No more than bringing up -
McCain's buddy G. Gordon Liddy
McCain's role in the Keating 5
McCain slow-walks the Abramoff investigation
McCain's ties to the Kremlin
Unless you have no ideas for the future to share with the people voting for you; You're just a Gee Golly, You Betcha, Joe sixpack Maverick.
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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/5/2008 10:09:30 AM
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wing2000
Posts: 1029
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
Why is a US Senate background suddenly necessary?
Clinton didn't have it.
Carter didn't have it
Neither Bushs had it
Reagan didn't
Eisenhower didn't
on an on.
Why is it necessary now?
As Senator, exposure to national and international issues would make her a stronger candidate.
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RE: Can John McCain still win this? - 10/5/2008 12:24:43 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fledgling
Its interesting that the AOL straw poll has McCain way ahead. I wonder why their poll is so different from everyone elses..
http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2008/10/02/aol-straw-poll-oct-3-10/
Educated professionals, college folk, and the computer literate tend to avoid AOL like the plague.
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