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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 9/30/2008 10:24:10 PM
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Bro_Shane
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No one can make anyone repent. That is the job of the Spirit. I was thinking about this, do you think she might have been convicted and merely used this as an excuse to go someplace where sin is taken more lightly? People leave the church and use all kinds of excuses to make it everone's fault but theirs.
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Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/1/2008 12:14:50 AM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PopsiLufsJesus
It kind of brings the lyrics from Casting Crowns song in my head.
If we are the Body
why aren't His arms reaching?
Why aren't His hands healing
Why aren't His words teaching
And if we are the Body
Why aren't His feet going
Why is His love not showing them there is a way
There is a way ...
Jesus is the way.
Does the Word not tell us if someone comes to us in need, to first fulfill their need? It sounds to me like this young girl was in need?
Where in the word would you be talking about, where it says to fill the need first? This young lady is in need of repentance and salvation. Again, treating the lost and unrepentant as if they are not does them no favors.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/1/2008 12:23:35 AM
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PopsiLufsJesus
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In James 2 is what I was thinking of...
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my[e] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[f] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[g]And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
but I guess it wasn't referring to directly what I was talking about because it does say brother or sister, I think that means in Christ...
Hmmm
_____________________________
Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.” ~Matthew 9:37-38 
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/1/2008 12:42:22 AM
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Bro_Shane
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That is the case here. If this young woman were a professing believer there would be other scriptural avenues to take.
Perhaps she will be more attentive where she now attends, and I pray those around here minister to her spiritual and physical needs.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/1/2008 8:33:05 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4073
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rafterman
Youth group girl. Long time attender. Not a member. Not saved.
She just graduated and is pregnant. She is not married and is not getting married to the father. (good thing, he is bad news) Interesting.
Is this not a subtle form of legalism, believing that "if you measure up to a certain moral standard you will be ok in our eyes?"
Where do we get that an unbeliever should be expected to measure up to some standard?
Worse yet, if they do and are ok with the congregants, what motive is there to really repent and become a true believer? This kind of innoculates them against the draw of the Holy Spirit.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/1/2008 8:46:49 AM
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buckifn
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Ministering to her needs go far beyond a baby shower. Has any of the ladies taken her in to guide her into learning how to make good choices...
Where is she going to live after the baby is born? She needs Godly women helping her plan ahead; mentoring to both her natural and spiritual need. Is it possible someone from the church she did go to have the shower will step in and minister to her ongoing?
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/1/2008 10:38:33 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3123
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From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
Ministering to her needs go far beyond a baby shower. Has any of the ladies taken her in to guide her into learning how to make good choices...
Where is she going to live after the baby is born? She needs Godly women helping her plan ahead; mentoring to both her natural and spiritual need. Is it possible someone from the church she did go to have the shower will step in and minister to her ongoing?
The shower could have been a start. With the following in mind from the OP, I seriously doubt that the church in question will be the one to minister to her needs...spiritual or physical:
quote:
She wanted to have her baby shower at the church.
Some of the women said no way! They were so disapointed in her etc...
I explained to the women leaders in our church council meeting that this may be the last opportunity that we have to witness to her and love her and bring her closer to us and that they should take the lead have the baby shower at the church.
They did nothing.
I think the Youth Pastor did his best to care for this girl, but the women of the church put an end to that and it sounds like the Sr. Pastor was a passive bystander as he did nothing to follow up and make sure she was ministered to.
One can only hope that the church that allowed her to have the shower at their facility will do a better job of it.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/1/2008 10:57:06 AM
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kyl
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As a woman who was a unwed,pregnant teenager I would like you to know it makes a difference when you reach out.
My church gave me a baby-shower when I was 17. I did not ask them to they told me they were going to do it.
They never questioned me about the father or anything else. They never said anything to me about what I had done. They didnt have to.
They were also there for me after the baby was born
The first week after he was born I took him to church with me. He got the hiccups and I went on panic because I couldnt get them to stop. I was embarrassed that I didnt know what to do if anything.I had no idea how to be a mother.
One of the ladys from the church came and took him from my arms and smiled and winked at me. She must have seen the anxiety I was having.
She came back in a few and put him back in my arms.
When ever I went to church I always had a lady from the church sitting very near and willing to help.Always encouraging and offering a smile.
Very different than what I was experiencing at home,with being reminded constantly of how I had shamed everyone and would pay for this mistake the rest of my life.
I want you to know that these women never treated me different or looked down on me. They were there for me and my child.
37 years have passed and I have often thought about the love and forgiveness they showed me.
I have often thought about the how they reached out to me and helped me.
the memory of that love has lifted me up and brought me through a lot of difficult situations through the years.
It also encouraged me to reach out to other young girls through the years
It was an act of love that has never been forgotten.
I dont think it would have made any difference if it was at the church or in someones home.
It was the act of love and acceptance that made the difference.
_____________________________
Psalm19:14 May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be pleasing in your sight,
O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/1/2008 11:10:39 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4252
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From: The higher lowcountry
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In my ever so annoying opinion... 
I still stand firm on the women of that particular church reaching out to her, especially that they must know her well enough to judge her. Cause, I can tell you true that if she chose abortion, they'd condemn her. But make the life-choice and they only disown you. Puhleaze...you cannot have it both ways. It is a fine line...but it is a loving line for restoration.
When the focus of a church body is inward, it appears that the opportunities for ministry lack the compassion we should have for those far from God.
I don't think this girl could have cared less if the shower was in the church or at someone's home or whatever ... she was reaching out for some compassion in her life. Who knows what or how her parents handled this. I would be more disappointed in the mature church women than in this girl.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/1/2008 11:32:43 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5585
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From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kyl
As a woman who was a unwed,pregnant teenager I would like you to know it makes a difference when you reach out.
My church gave me a baby-shower when I was 17. I did not ask them to they told me they were going to do it.
They never questioned me about the father or anything else. They never said anything to me about what I had done. They didnt have to.
They were also there for me after the baby was born
The first week after he was born I took him to church with me. He got the hiccups and I went on panic because I couldnt get them to stop. I was embarrassed that I didnt know what to do if anything.I had no idea how to be a mother.
One of the ladys from the church came and took him from my arms and smiled and winked at me. She must have seen the anxiety I was having.
She came back in a few and put him back in my arms.
When ever I went to church I always had a lady from the church sitting very near and willing to help.Always encouraging and offering a smile.
Very different than what I was experiencing at home,with being reminded constantly of how I had shamed everyone and would pay for this mistake the rest of my life.
I want you to know that these women never treated me different or looked down on me. They were there for me and my child.
37 years have passed and I have often thought about the love and forgiveness they showed me.
I have often thought about the how they reached out to me and helped me.
the memory of that love has lifted me up and brought me through a lot of difficult situations through the years.
It also encouraged me to reach out to other young girls through the years
It was an act of love that has never been forgotten.
I dont think it would have made any difference if it was at the church or in someones home.
It was the act of love and acceptance that made the difference.
Were you a Christian? If not, are you now, and when did you become a CHristian?
Thaks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/1/2008 1:26:40 PM
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1love1God1way
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I don't see why opening your arms and loving someone who needs love is the opposite of letting her know she needs to repent and be saved . . .
I see them quite hand-in-hand, and the church blew it.
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love.ben
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/1/2008 1:43:44 PM
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ladyingrace1979
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The chuch is the body of Christ, and the building where the church meets should be used for persons who belong to that body. This young lady seemed to care more about having a shower at a chuch building tha repenting and becoming a member of the body of Christ.
So you don't see how this statement could lead to isolationism? You also speculate on this young ladies motives. Perhaps she was reaching out to people who proclaimed to love her but because "they were disappointed in her" they withdrew.
I just have to say I'm glad God doesn't withdraw from us when we disappoint him.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/1/2008 2:56:56 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 986
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ladyingrace1979
The chuch is the body of Christ, and the building where the church meets should be used for persons who belong to that body. This young lady seemed to care more about having a shower at a chuch building tha repenting and becoming a member of the body of Christ.
So you don't see how this statement could lead to isolationism? You also speculate on this young ladies motives. Perhaps she was reaching out to people who proclaimed to love her but because "they were disappointed in her" they withdrew.
I just have to say I'm glad God doesn't withdraw from us when we disappoint him.
It will not lead to isolationism as long as people seek the will of God in all things, including things both inside and outside the church. Yes, I am speculating to a point. If she were a regular attender, has heard the gospel, knows she is in sin and refused to heed the call of the Spirit, then leaves because people do not want to treat her as if she is a believer, it would seem a decent assumption she left either because she wanted to continue in her sin and the charade was over or she was convicted of her sin and was afraid to come forth about it because of how it was handeled by the church. There are other possibilities, but these are the most probable.
I am also glad God does not withdraw from us when we disappoint Him, but He did give us clear scriptural instruction to withdraw from those who engage in systematic rebellion and remain unrepentant. If you woud like, I will list a few so you can research them for yourself.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/1/2008 4:15:56 PM
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laura...
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From: NE Ohio
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Again, this really depends on the individual situation. In our church is a young lady who has been a long time attender. Her family attends. 2 of her uncles were deacons. She claims to be saved. She's unwed and got pregnant. The church reached out to her, the father and her family and gave her a baby shower at the church. It is now over two years later and she is due to give birth to her second child by a different father and is still unmarried. There were hints that another baby shower would be helpful to her. It has been made very clear by the pastor and leadership that another baby shower would not be held for her or sanctioned in the church. Do we love her? Yes. Do we welcome her and her children? Yes.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/1/2008 4:43:23 PM
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myka
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quote:
What I am saying is that those in unbelief or in open and continual rebellion must be treated in the manner set forth by scripture, with the heart and attitude set forth by scripture.
With all due respect, I think you are equating unbelievers with believers who are in continual and open rebellion. Jesus did not treat them the same way at all. The first letter to the Corinthians was written to believers who had some serious issues. Our attitudes toward unbelievers is to be one of love and humility (like that of Christ Jesus...).
If she wasn't pregnant, would she still be accepted at the church? I have personally seen the really ugly dark side of this issue.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/1/2008 5:20:47 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
We had a wild and wooly thread on this not too long ago.
I do not think the Church property should be used to honor an unrepent unsaved person of any sort.
If someone want to give the girl a shower they should do it at their home or some other place.
Thanks
RC
Ditto. The church should not be used to 'approve' her pregnancy. A home would be ideal for this ... in no way should anyone ever think it is OK to become pregnant outside of marriage..........God sure doesn't and who is the innocent? The baby.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/1/2008 5:39:29 PM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
quote:
What I am saying is that those in unbelief or in open and continual rebellion must be treated in the manner set forth by scripture, with the heart and attitude set forth by scripture.
With all due respect, I think you are equating unbelievers with believers who are in continual and open rebellion. Jesus did not treat them the same way at all. The first letter to the Corinthians was written to believers who had some serious issues. Our attitudes toward unbelievers is to be one of love and humility (like that of Christ Jesus...).
If she wasn't pregnant, would she still be accepted at the church? I have personally seen the really ugly dark side of this issue.
Please go back and read what I have written. Either you have missed that I have treated these as two distinct groups with two different approaches (both addressed in scripture), or I have not done a good job at getting my point across. If it is the latter, my apology.
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Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/1/2008 6:24:23 PM
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myka
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Shane, I re-read what you wrote. I think where I disagree is that the church building is for believers. We wouldn't bar unbelievers from a church service or youth group (evidently), why would we tell them that they can't have a baby shower in the building because they are not believers, yet? Why is the baby shower different from a worship service? Are we not presenting the 'good news' in both situations?
Some churches have an outreach program where they have baby showers for women who have 'crisis pregnancies.' It is one way that some churches have chosen to combat abortion. The baby shower is not so much about 'approving' the pregnancy, but about showing love to someone in need (financial, physical, and spiritual).
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/1/2008 6:36:19 PM
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rafterman
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thanks kyl,
I would say no to a shower if she was a non-crisis case. I think she is. She has had bipolar/chemical imbalance/other medical issues. The baby is at risk for down syndrome.
Maybe we do need to look at these things as crisis or non crisis.
A women who has been living with a man and is having a second baby should not be allowed to use the church.
With the moral decline, I am quite sure this will be an issue at everyone's church at some point.
_____________________________
"my concern is not that God is on our side, but that we are on His" abe lincoln
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/1/2008 10:15:29 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2388
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
Ditto. The church should not be used to 'approve' her pregnancy. A home would be ideal for this ... in no way should anyone ever think it is OK to become pregnant outside of marriage..........God sure doesn't and who is the innocent? The baby.
Two things, solar.
1. Throwing a baby shower does not mean one "approves." It means one will continue to support you, even though you made a mistake (ie, promiscuity) . But guess what else? That child ISN'T a mistake. The baby comes from the LORD, is formed in her womb, and is fearfully and wonderfully made. The circumstances are poor, but we should always celebrate life.
2. I think there is too much emphasis being put on the actually physical parameters of the church building. A building is just a building. The people are who make up the church, no matter which building they are in.
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love.ben
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/1/2008 10:41:59 PM
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stellaluna
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I've been pondering this thread all day. I have two questions.
1) Did the girl want the women of the church to give her a shower at the church that would have included primarily members or primarily unbelieving people who aren't members?
2) What was the objection to having a shower at someone's home? (If any.)
_____________________________
Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/1/2008 10:45:18 PM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
Shane, I re-read what you wrote. I think where I disagree is that the church building is for believers. We wouldn't bar unbelievers from a church service or youth group (evidently), why would we tell them that they can't have a baby shower in the building because they are not believers, yet? Why is the baby shower different from a worship service? Are we not presenting the 'good news' in both situations?
The bulk of the New Testament speaks to the corporate meeting of the body as being for the body. A place is made for those who do not believe in an effort for them to hear the word and yeild to the conviction of the Spirit. There is not a place in the NT where the church is described as a place where everything is allowed and all people, both believers and unbelievers, are treated in the same way beyond love and respect. In fact, there are places in scripture where it speaks of being sure we are hospitable to our brothers and sisters over unbelievers.
A worship service is the corporate meeting of the local body for the primary purpose of glorifying and worshipping God, with the secondary purpose of edification and support of the body. A baby shower can not be compared to it. I would have no problem with women in the church having a shower for the girl in one of their homes. I would have no problem with helping the young lady in other ways. What I am saying is that we should not allow the illusion that the church condones or ignores sin. Sin is a fact. Her unsaved state is a fact. To treat it as if it isn't there is to do her a great disservice.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/2/2008 12:06:31 AM
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myka
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I agree that a worship service is significantly different than a baby shower. Specifically, the worship service is a group of believers who join together to worship and glorify God and edify one another. Since unbelievers do not worship God and cannot be edified in the same way that believers are, why would they be allowed in worship services?
A baby shower is merely a group of people supporting one another without any spiritual aspects to it.
Do you require confession/repentance of all believers who want to have events at the church?
quote:
In fact, there are places in scripture where it speaks of being sure we are hospitable to our brothers and sisters over unbelievers.
Okay, where are they?
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RE: unwed, pregnant, teenager - 10/2/2008 12:58:22 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 986
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: myka
I agree that a worship service is significantly different than a baby shower. Specifically, the worship service is a group of believers who join together to worship and glorify God and edify one another. Since unbelievers do not worship God and cannot be edified in the same way that believers are, why would they be allowed in worship services?
For the reason I stated above.
quote:
A baby shower is merely a group of people supporting one another without any spiritual aspects to it.
Do you require confession/repentance of all believers who want to have events at the church?
A baby shower given at the church must be done with the permission of the church. Everything that happens at the church has the permission of the church or it wouldn't happen. What message does it send when we preach about sin and the need for repentance, yet turn our heads when we find it under our noses?
I also do not see how your question here has any bearing on what we are talking about. I feel you are trying to make my position an extreme one, which it is not. You can not make an exaggeration of my stance, then point out the flaws of the exaggeration and expect it to hold for my position as well.
quote:
Okay, where are they?
Romans 12:10-13 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; [11] Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord; [12] Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer; [13] Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality. - emphasis mine
I Corinthians 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
Here Paul is speaking about meat offered to idols. Note that there is no admonition here to abstain due to offending non-believers. We are only to abstain if we offend against our brothers and sisters, which offending them is a sin against Christ. Which is why Paul states in the following verse, "Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend." We are not to seek to offend non-believers, but we are to take care not to offend the brethren even to the point of denying things that are not sinful in themselves.
I Peter 2:17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
All men and the king are to be honored, while the brotherhood is to be loved, or preferred above the other two.
There are other passages that show differences between how we are to act to those who are and are not believers but, for the sake if brevity, I'll leave it at these. We are to love all people, to help all people. But, if having to make the choice between an unbeliever and a brother or sister in a matter of hospitality, help, or conscience, we are to choose the brother or sister.
One thing that has not been mentioned here is the effect this could have on the other youth in the church. If we teach them to remain pure until marriage, and how pre-martial sex is a sin, what message does it send to then act as if an unbeliever is the same as a believer and ignore the same thing we teach against? They will see such things as moral, spiritual, and physical purity are fine for Sunday school lessons and sermons, but not for real life.
There is a reason sin is compared to yeast in scripture. You allow a little, sanction it with the best of intentions, and it spreads like wildfire. The young lady spoken of here is not the only one to consider in this question. You also must protect the body against such influences.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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