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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 5:31:45 PM
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theredhog
Posts: 47
Joined: 9/23/2008
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quote:
What you claim to yearn for is just an move of emotions rather than the lasting move of the HS.
I bet it's more. There just seems to be something in the hearts of God's people that wants to see Him glorified and people's lived changed by His power. I weep just thinking about it...maybe it's something we'll see when all creation glorifies God as in Revelation 5:13....don't really know. Just know how I feel.
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 6:43:51 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1019
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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I assume you were quite young if you remember much of the 50s. Perhaps you were in a youth group. One of the things I remember from my church experience in the 50s was a program called Christian Endeavor. Does anyone recall that?
I have fond memories of that. As I recall, it involved youth from several chirches in the area. Every Sunday evening we would all gather at one of the churches and have a time of fellowship followed by singing and Bible study. I think what I loved most about that time was the fellowship and the fact that we gathered together with young people from other churches and denominations. All of the churches involved had the same basic doctrines but there were some minor differences.
I think I can relate to the lack of "feeling" the Holy Spirit because today there just doesn't seem to be the same level of fellowship among us. I think part of my feeling is that older people, those of us who were youth in the 50s are now in their 60s and older, have a harder time making new friends and building relationships than when we were younger.
It gives me great pleasure to see young people in my church building strong relationships in the church but I just don't see much effort to build a senior adult ministry in which seniors can have fellowship and build lasting relationships.
I think we feel the Holy Spirit's presence most when we have fellowship together. Sure the Holy Spirit is also present in individuals but the times I have really felt the Spirit have been times when I have been fellowshipping with brothers and sisters in Christ.
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 7:10:46 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6209
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
Yustme,
How do you know what you experienced and what you yearn for has any lasting value? Throngs have come foward at the BG crusade and by their own estimates less than 5% are following Christ 5 years following the event? What you claim to yearn for is just an move of emotions rather than the lasting move of the HS.
Exactly - emotions are fickle and can be deceiving. God's Word is absolute and words do matter when we're speaking His Words.
Error begets error, so we need to be careful with what we say and how we say it. But getting back to the topic at hand there is only one way to renew our minds, and that is by the Word of God.
It is the truth, the knowledge of the Word of God, which is to say the knowledge of the mercies of God, and we’re back where we began. To know the truth, to believe the truth, to hold convictions about the truth, and to love the truth will naturally result in true spiritual worship.
It is conviction followed by affection, affection that is a response to truth, not to any external stimuli, including music.
Music as such has nothing to do with worship. Music can’t produce worship, although it certainly can produce emotion.
Music is not the origin of worship, but it can be the expression of it. Do not look to music to induce your worship; look to music as simply an expression of that which is induced by a heart that is rapt by the mercies of God, obedient to His commands.
True worship is God-centered worship. People tend to get caught up in where they should worship, what music they should sing in worship, and how the worship looks to other people.
Focusing on these things completely misses the point. Jesus tells us that true worshipers will worship God in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). This means we worship from the heart and the way God has designed. Worship can include praying, reading God's Word with an open heart, singing, participating in communion, and serving others.
It is not limited to one act, but is done properly when the heart and attitude of the person are in the right place.
It’s also important to know that worship is reserved only for God. Only He is worthy and not any of His servants (Revelation 19:10). We are not to worship saints, prophets, statues, angels, any false gods, or Mary, the mother of Jesus.
We also should not be worshiping for the expectation of something in return, such as a miraculous healing. Worship is done for God - because He deserves it - and for His pleasure alone.
Worship can be public praise to God (Psalm 22:22, 35:18) in a congregational setting, where we can proclaim through prayer and praise our adoration and thankfulness to Him and what He has done for us.
True worship is felt inwardly, and then comes out through our actions. "Going through the motions" out of obligation is displeasing to God and is done completely in vain. He can see through all the hypocrisy, and He hates it.
He demonstrates this in Amos 5:21-24 as He talks about coming judgment. Another example is the story of Cain and Abel, the first sons of Adam and Eve. They both brought gift offerings to the Lord, but He was only pleased with Abel's. Cain brought the gift out of obligation; Abel brought his finest lambs from his flock. He brought out of faith and admiration for God.
True worship is not confined to what we do in church or open praise (although these things are both good and we are told in the Bible to do them). It is the acknowledgment of God and all His power and glory in everything we do.
The highest form of praise and worship is obedience to Him and His Word. To do this, we must know God; we cannot be ignorant of Him (Acts 17:23). Worship is to glorify and exalt God - to show our loyalty and admiration to our Father.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 7:15:11 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2913
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
Tafkam,this Is the nicest post you have ever posted to me.Thank you so much.I don't Insist on staying where I'm at,I just don't have a choice.
Yustme-I'm sorry if this hits on sensitive territory, but I'm curious why you don't have a choice. Would it be ok to explain? I completely understand the emotional drain of being in a dead-feeling church. After we moved, that's kind of where we ended up. Man, was it hard. Fortunately, our story has a happier ending.
I'm curious about your story, if you can share it.
BT
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 7:16:59 PM
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techne
Posts: 580
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DWinMadison
quote:
ORIGINAL: techne
..of course, this begs the question as to how you define "worship" (i thought it was presenting your bodies as living sacrifices - which would seem to me to be about more than the preaching and the meeting, let alone the singing), and whether that is simply about the [sunday] gathering...
I think this is a good commentary on what you are talking about...
Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship.
When I look at worship, I see two acts - The spiritual act and the physical act. When we gather as a congregation on Sundays, we see a host of people offering up their physical acts of worship. They are singing, lifting up hands, praying, shouting and dancing. It is a awesome site to see...hundred of believers engaged in the act of physical worship.
the commentary is fine - but for one thing: there is no context of worship occuring as part of (or only during) a service. my point was really that "worship" can and should take place in situations and contexts besides the singing (and dancing and hand-raising and levitating or whatever) portion of the [sunday] gathering. if worship is the offering up of your body as a living sacrifice, then worship is far more than that -- we worship when we serve any people in any place (a glass of cold water in his name etc), we worship when we resist the opportunity to "flesh out" during our day, we worship when we fast and pray, we worship when we obey and walk in the Truth and choose his kingdom over our own - because we are offering up our bodies as a living sacrifice. if sunday is the only day, time and place we worship we have missed the point, and have perhaps misread that scripture.
now, don't misunderstand me, the [celebration] gathering - regardless of which day you have it - is important. but it is not the end-all and be-all of worship and, in fact, may be a less important expression of worship than we generally think.
maybe.
_____________________________
And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 7:46:04 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1892
Status: offline
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quote:
just throwing this out there -- i think it is important to choose your words carefully. it is equally possible, for example, for me to interpret yustme's comments as being judgemental or proud (because, of course, the 'state' of the hearer/ reader has a lot of bearing on how those words are interpreted). you're doing an awful lot of interpretation for her. and i think it is actually biblical to be clear as to what you are saying when you communicate, regardless of medium. i mean, what if the bible were of such a literary quality that we were simply expected to "hear paul's heart"?
Jesus said "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says" repeatedly. Jesus thought we could hear. . . I guess I'm saying I believe Him.
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 7:46:30 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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quote:
but I just don't see much effort to build a senior adult ministry in which seniors can have fellowship and build lasting relationships.
But why aren't they taking the initiative to do these things? Aren't there leaders among that group to do this task? Why aren't they forming relationships with the twenty-something who can learn from their life lessons? Or, does church programing preclude this from being accomplished? Wouldn't these relationships be a form of worship?
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 7:55:27 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1019
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
but I just don't see much effort to build a senior adult ministry in which seniors can have fellowship and build lasting relationships.
But why aren't they taking the initiative to do these things? Aren't there leaders among that group to do this task? Why aren't they forming relationships with the twenty-something who can learn from their life lessons? Or, does church programing preclude this from being accomplished? Wouldn't these relationships be a form of worship?
I agree completely and at our small church we are trying to do just that but the progress has been very slow. There is a lack of leadership in this area I think.
My wife and I used to go to a mega-church that had a large senior ministry but they were almost like a self-contained church within itself. They had separate worship services and rarely fellowshipped with younger people. I'm sure many felt like they were being segregated or warehoused. That is why my wife and I moved to a smaller church. Despite the many drawbacks of a smaller church, we feel more connected.
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 9:59:15 PM
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techne
Posts: 580
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
just throwing this out there -- i think it is important to choose your words carefully. it is equally possible, for example, for me to interpret yustme's comments as being judgemental or proud (because, of course, the 'state' of the hearer/ reader has a lot of bearing on how those words are interpreted). you're doing an awful lot of interpretation for her. and i think it is actually biblical to be clear as to what you are saying when you communicate, regardless of medium. i mean, what if the bible were of such a literary quality that we were simply expected to "hear paul's heart"?
Jesus said "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says" repeatedly. Jesus thought we could hear. . . I guess I'm saying I believe Him.
yes, well...hearing what the spirit has to say is a totally different thing than "hearing someone's heart"...
_____________________________
And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 11:28:48 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1892
Status: offline
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quote:
yes, well...hearing what the spirit has to say is a totally different thing than "hearing someone's heart"...
Really?
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words (or interpreting spiritual things to spiritual men). I Cor 2:11-13
or we can believe what Jesus said on more than one occasion, "do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment". John 7:24
It appears, techne, that those who are indwelt by the Spirit of God do have another way of hearing, another way of listening, another way of understanding and even another way of judging. . . and this all has very much to do with a person's heart. If my heart is His, I can know and understand others just as Jesus does. And I can judge them rightly. He asks me to. His Spirit desires to do this in each one of us if we are His and surrendered to Him.
Having spiritual understanding of others is what was lacking in the church at Corinth, is what is lacking in the church today and this lack is the source of all the quarrels and conflicts among those who call themselves brethren. I cannot think of one time in scripture where Jesus or Paul asks someone to clarify what they have said because they did not express themselves 'correctly' or were perhaps going to mislead some by what they said. No, they knew what the person meant. And they responded to the meaning. The Spirit of God made this known to them. And it was the person's heart that they knew and were responding to.
I want to be one who has an ear and who hears what the Spirit says. It is the desire of my heart. And it is His will for me. I do not doubt Him.
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/3/2008 2:43:35 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3643
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
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Hi, Yustme! Nice to see you around! I've missed you.
I remember church in northern California in the '50s, but the memories are not pleasant. I remember the angry man with steel-blue eyes who would rage from the pulpit until the purple veins on his neck surely would burst. I remember him screaming at the top of his lungs while the people cried in despair in his office because they had done something that he didn't like -- like their teenager had a tiff with his granddaughter or they hadn't come to all three services the previous Sunday. I remember people walking on eggshells around him and actually thinking he was holy, when he was just a power-hungry little hitler.
But I think this is quite different from your memories. This man thought he was almighty, but he was not, and in time, that was proven solidly.
Church was better in Mississippi, where pastors were people and had no false concepts of their importance. It may have been sweltering, and the fans with the funeral home advertisements may have been flying -- sometimes at an errant junebug -- but the pastors there were more real, and the people didn't have any misconceptions of them being more than human.
Master the tempest is raging, The billows are tossing high . . . .
Like a mighty sea, Like a mighty sea, Comes the love of Jesus Sweeping over me . . . .
Ring the bells of heaven, there is joy today . . . .
Come ye who love the L-rd and let His joys be known . . . .
And if one listened in the occasional silence of the room, one could hear the calls of the frogs and grasshoppers outside, reminding us that there was a breeze out there to greet us afterward under the starry sky, where bright-bellied lightning bugs flitting about, bringing the stars close enough to catch in the old Ball jar.
And when we finally would exit, round-fendered cars awaited us. I would lean on the coolness of the window and be lulled to sleep by the soothing green of the dash lights and the cradle-movement of the car.
Yeah, I remember.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/3/2008 11:35:18 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3610
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: online
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quote:
Yeah, I remember.
Boy, we're a bunch of oldies aren't we?
But, we're goodies.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/3/2008 1:09:30 PM
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yustme
Posts: 379
Joined: 5/2/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: techne
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
Listen to her heart?
This is what the pharisees did. They took the words and missed the heart. I am not accusing anyone of being a pharisee here but the example is so fitting. This was what Jesus confronted in people over and over and over again.
just throwing this out there -- i think it is important to choose your words carefully. it is equally possible, for example, for me to interpret yustme's comments as being judgemental or proud (because, of course, the 'state' of the hearer/ reader has a lot of bearing on how those words are interpreted). you're doing an awful lot of interpretation for her. and i think it is actually biblical to be clear as to what you are saying when you communicate, regardless of medium. i mean, what if the bible were of such a literary quality that we were simply expected to "hear paul's heart"? 
just sayin' is all...
Don't have much time to answer all the post's,but I will answer this one and the rest later.
It grieves my heart so that any one would think I'm being judgemental or proud.There Is nothing any good In me except Jesus,God the HS.And I don't say that with any kind of pride.I strive every single day to die to self and invite the HS of God to live In and through me.
Now for LiveLoved,he/she Is truly expressing my heart and the brokeness of my heart,Spirit & soul.His/her Spirit Is bearing witness with my Spirit of my brokeness.Please listen with your heart to what he/she Is saying.Oh how I yearn for,not the "good ole days",but for the days when we would allow the HS to do the work like He did In days gone by.
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/3/2008 5:35:54 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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quote:
It grieves my heart so that any one would think I'm being judgemental or proud.There Is nothing any good In me except Jesus,God the HS
No one has said this; what has been said that you seem to equate your experiences and the emotions connected with them as a move of the HS.
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/3/2008 10:13:59 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1892
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: techne
just throwing this out there -- i think it is important to choose your words carefully. it is equally possible, for example, for me to interpret yustme's comments as being judgemental or proud (because, of course, the 'state' of the hearer/ reader has a lot of bearing on how those words are interpreted). you're doing an awful lot of interpretation for her. and i think it is actually biblical to be clear as to what you are saying when you communicate, regardless of medium. i mean, what if the bible were of such a literary quality that we were simply expected to "hear paul's heart"?
colliefan, This is where the 'judgmental' comment comes from. I realize this is techne talking about possibilities---not necessarily expresing what he sees and hears. LL
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/6/2008 2:10:45 AM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6985
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
Does anyone remember the way church used to be in the 50's and before?
No, but that's because I wasn't born until 1965 and wasn't saved until 1994. However, I love to talk to people who've been saved for quite a while. I love to hear of church stories from back then.
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/6/2008 2:15:15 AM
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techne
Posts: 580
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
yes, well...hearing what the spirit has to say is a totally different thing than "hearing someone's heart"...
Really?
yes -- really.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
okay -- i'll play along...this verse states that only the spirit of G-d knows the thoughts of G-d. and that people know how people think. not too sure how this relates to the issue at hand, which i understand as being about the tension between communicating clearly and "hearing one's heart".
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words (or interpreting spiritual things to spiritual men). I Cor 2:11-13
this seems to me to be a verse about hearing G-d because his spirit indwells us. it is directly addressing that relationship.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
or we can believe what Jesus said on more than one occasion, "do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment". John 7:24
yes, well - "righteous judgement"...the context here is a discussion of a miracle committed on the sabbath, and he is deriding the religious leaders for being legalists and not seeing the larger context of the kingdom bringing healing and deliverance (or at least, that's one way i read it). besides, if anything, it's about actions, not words.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
It appears, techne, that those who are indwelt by the Spirit of God do have another way of hearing, another way of listening, another way of understanding and even another way of judging. . . and this all has very much to do with a person's heart. If my heart is His, I can know and understand others just as Jesus does. And I can judge them rightly. He asks me to. His Spirit desires to do this in each one of us if we are His and surrendered to Him.
and it appears, liveloved, that all these quotes have nothing to do with hearing a person's heart when they speak. they refer to our relationship to G-d the father through the spirit, or they are a challenge to the religious to see that the kingdom is near them. i don't agree that these verses refer to "a person's heart", unless it is our own, and how it is aligned with G-d. these verse refer to our understanding of G-d, not man. admittedly, your 3rd example is about judging religious and legalistic thinking...but it doesn't indicate that we should "hear their hearts" -- instead, jesus goes for the jugular and exposes their ignorance and hypocrisy.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Having spiritual understanding of others is what was lacking in the church at Corinth, is what is lacking in the church today and this lack is the source of all the quarrels and conflicts among those who call themselves brethren.
i disagree. i'm not sure that the issue at the church of corinth was "spiritual understanding of others". the church of corinth was actually chock-full of spiritual gifts, etc. the problem was that they were exceedingly carnal as well.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
I cannot think of one time in scripture where Jesus or Paul asks someone to clarify what they have said because they did not express themselves 'correctly' or were perhaps going to mislead some by what they said. my point was that they didn't interpret or clarify at all. they did, however, address the deeper "heart" issues in their responses and letters.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
No, they knew what the person meant. And they responded to the meaning. The Spirit of God made this known to them. And it was the person's heart that they knew and were responding to.
again, i disagree - they responded to the underlying heart issue, and not the [intended] meaning of anyone's words. check out jesus' dialogue with the samaritan woman. he went right around any sort of discussion or potential argument with her and went straight to some core issues. no. i don't believe they responded to some unknown meaning - they spoke [prophetically] into heart issues and mindsets. the spirit of G-d showed them the lies to be addressed and the Truth(s) to be declared. i'm not sure there are really any passages where they state that "what so-and-so actually meant was...and this is what the spirit has to say about that."
though it's good that yustme has you as an advocate. i'm just asking questions...
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
I want to be one who has an ear and who hears what the Spirit says. It is the desire of my heart. And it is His will for me. I do not doubt Him.
amen. amen. and amen.
< Message edited by techne -- 10/6/2008 2:27:53 AM >
_____________________________
And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/6/2008 2:33:06 AM
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techne
Posts: 580
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
quote:
ORIGINAL: techne
just throwing this out there -- i think it is important to choose your words carefully. it is equally possible, for example, for me to interpret yustme's comments as being judgemental or proud (because, of course, the 'state' of the hearer/ reader has a lot of bearing on how those words are interpreted). you're doing an awful lot of interpretation for her. and i think it is actually biblical to be clear as to what you are saying when you communicate, regardless of medium. i mean, what if the bible were of such a literary quality that we were simply expected to "hear paul's heart"?
Don't have much time to answer all the post's,but I will answer this one and the rest later.
It grieves my heart so that any one would think I'm being judgemental or proud.There Is nothing any good In me except Jesus,God the HS.And I don't say that with any kind of pride.I strive every single day to die to self and invite the HS of God to live In and through me.
i never stated that you were judgemental or proud. and anyway, it doesn't matter. if this discussion is about "hearing someone's heart" and liveloved and i have different views or interpretations of your heart there are only a few possibilities: one of us is wrong, both of us are wrong or both of us are right. who can truly judge? only the spirit.
oh wait...that's how we got here in the first place, isn't it?
one quick question, however - how exactly can you judge that the holy spirit isn't at work?
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
Now for LiveLoved,he/she Is truly expressing my heart and the brokeness of my heart,Spirit & soul.His/her Spirit Is bearing witness with my Spirit of my brokeness.Please listen with your heart to what he/she Is saying.Oh how I yearn for,not the "good ole days",but for the days when we would allow the HS to do the work like He did In days gone by.
you know what? i think your concerns have always been true. these concerns have been in the church since the first generation passed on. but be assured, the holy spirit has never stopped working. though his working may look different than you suppose. and there are plenty who do allow the holy spirit to "do the work" he needs to in their lives. and then in the lives of others around them. if you're longing to see a greater manifestation of that, just keep prayin', i guess...
_____________________________
And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/6/2008 2:37:47 AM
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techne
Posts: 580
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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one more quick thought...
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words (or interpreting spiritual things to spiritual men). I Cor 2:11-13
please note: the repeated use of "thoughts" and "words" seems to indicate (well, to me in any case) that there is a need or responsibility (if not an injunction) to have real clarity in our communication. there is no talk here of "hearing the heart". they aren't about "feelings" at all.
ps. is "(or interpreting spiritual things to spiritual men)" your gloss?
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And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/6/2008 12:19:34 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3610
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: online
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Seems this is one of those threads that pushes all the
"theology buttons." LOL.
I've refrained on many comments because I realized it
was just a response I would give having my "theology button"
pushed.
I understood the OP's heart, so I refrained from my own nit-piking. lol.
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Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/6/2008 10:25:14 PM
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techne
Posts: 580
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
I understood the OP's heart, so I refrained from my own nit-piking.
well, lapidoth, the salient points of the first 4 posts were as follows:
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
Does anyone remember the way church used to be in the 50's and before?
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
The church I'm in,the Pastor's fantastick but it is full of fleshly emotions and not Spiritual emotions.It's been so long since I have felt the presents of the HS of God,I need a Spiritual bath.Yes I read my Bible and pray,but oh how I need to be able to leave my church feeling like I have been In the presents of the HS of God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
I agree,however,my husband Is just as fed up as I am,but we don't know where to go.We have visited,but they all seem to be the same.
tafkam,that wasn't a blanket statement.Sorry It sounded that way to you.I do know churches who are the way I remember church to be,however we can't travel for three hr's every Sunday & Wednesday for church.
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
Tafkam,this Is the nicest post you have ever posted to me.Thank you so much.I don't Insist on staying where I'm at,I just don't have a choice.Every Sunday and Wednesday I come from church asking God to either come back and take us home to Heaven or please take me home soon.I don't want to live like this anymore going to church and just going through the motions and playing church.I want to see people so under conviction they run to the alter for what ever need.I want to see people not be able to leave the church untill they get right with God and with each other.This Is what I mean about the way church use to be.
basically, if i'm reading these staements correctly, yustme thinks her church is too fleshly and not spiritual enough, as well as implying that much of today's church is the same (as her church). besides, the church in the 50s and before is a pretty big time span, don'cha think? does she mean the church of the past 1,950 years? or only the past 100? remember, "the great awakenings" are further back than that now, let alone any number of other previous revivals/ moves of G-d.
yes, she wants to see people "run to the alter" and be so convicted they can't leave until they make things right between them and G-d. fine. and those are good things. but she is basing things on appearances, somewhat. she says she needs "to be able to leave my church feeling like I have been In the presents of the HS of God" and that she doesn't "want to live like this anymore going to church and just going through the motions and playing church". that sounds more like it's her issue, and her conviction and struggle with G-d. she vacillates back and forth between statements of her longing and what others should be doing.it isn't simply "pushing theological buttons".
i don't doubt yustme's passion. i don't doubt she loves G-d, jesus, the holy spirit and yes, even the church. but i also think it's obvious that her struggle and process is on display here, and that it just might be colouring how she expresses these things. and that reveals numerous things. then again, i'm either pretty critical and judgemental or discerning (depending on how you read me and my "heart") so i'm probably reading some of those things in... 
then again, i was simply positing a question to something that was being presented as quite cut and dried - namely, church today isn't the same as it was in the 50s. true. but the reasons for that difference were based on inidividual (and subjective) experience and judgements based on what could be physically observed. besides, that has probably been a constant refrain over the past 2000 years. of course, she can speak of her experience all she wants, and it's certainly valid. but the church has always been composed of sheep and goats, tares and wheat, spiritual disciples and carnal christians. why would that ever change? it's part of what helps us grow in grace. 
and thank you for yours.
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And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
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RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/6/2008 11:54:48 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1892
Status: offline
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quote:
quote: techne
though it's good that yustme has you as an advocate. i'm just asking questions...
And I appreciate your questions. But we do see (or should I say hear) things quite differently. I am always amazed when people argue (such as I hear you doing) that we don't/can't know people's hearts as Jesus did. If we have the Spirit of God dwelling in us, can we | | |
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