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joy2give2u -> Marriage coach (9/22/2008 7:12:19 PM)

I have been thinking lately about coaches.

What does a coach look like in our society?

Do we see a coach as someone who yells at his players when they make a mistake? As one so focused on winning each decision is made with victory on his mind?

Is the word picture which comes to mind when the word coach is used more about pushing hard, pointing out mistakes, instructing what to do next and yelling if it is not done exactly as it was taught?

Every day when I leave work I hear the loud music played to cover up the booming voices of coaches trying to shape their team into something which will bring glory to the school and themselves.

I wonder what motivates those young men to push themselves so hard, to endure the drills, the yelling, and to function under criticism more then praise.

Why do they work so hard? Why do we?

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

What does working out your salvation look like? Do you work so hard because you see your coach, the Holy Spirit, drilling and pushing you so you will know how and be able to follow His game plan?

Do we see him as we see a coach.....pointing out how we have messed up the game plan of God, how we missed this play or that? Do we see him constantly running us through drills trying to make sure the way we perform brings glory to God?

It is easy to see him that way when we forget the comma.

work out your salvation with fear and trembling, did you see it? the comma.......another thought is coming....a bigger thought.....

13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.........did you see the complete sentence?

It is God who works in me to will and according to his good purpose.........

What is the difference you might ask..........how we see the coach.

There are a few, rare I know but they are still out there, coaches who's focus and goal is not to win but to bring out the very best in each of his players.

Did you know the word "work" in these verses means distribute.....not to work hard until we react based on the game plan the coach has laid out but to instead react by distributing all that was placed in us when he created us.......

We were created in God imagine and everything we already are is inside of us waiting to be drawn out......and the Holy Spirit is a coach more interested in drawing out and distributing who we are already. He cares less about our record and more about who we become during the season.

How do these thoughts relate to singles? (Lisa I know you would ask)

I wonder how often we focus so much on trying to become what we think a husband/wife should be, spending time berating ourselves because we messed up here or there, and begin to doubt in our ability to ever have a winning enough record to make it to the big game.......the super bowl........the wedding.

I wonder do we use the play book and game plans in order to win or to bring out the player already inside of us?

Do we ask God to make us into husband or wife material or do we ask God to distribute that which is already inside of us and trust the coach that somewhere inside of us is everything needed to win the Superbowl?



John_O -> RE: Marriage coach (9/22/2008 7:31:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joy2give2u

Why do they work so hard?


A lucrative professional contract if they become good enough.

quote:

I wonder how often we focus so much on trying to become what we think a husband/wife should be, spending time berating ourselves because we messed up here or there, and begin to doubt in our ability to ever have a winning enough record to make it to the big game.......the super bowl........the wedding.

I wonder do we use the play book and game plans in order to win or to bring out the player already inside of us?

Do we ask God to make us into husband or wife material or do we ask God to distribute that which is already inside of us and trust the coach that somewhere inside of us is everything needed to win the Superbowl?


I don't see a difference between the two. If I become the best I can be, then I win.



shemaromans -> RE: Marriage coach (9/22/2008 7:49:08 PM)

I love theses verses (quoted them a couple of days ago in a Singles thread) and this chapter of Philippians (and Philippians as a whole for that matter). Let's read these verses in three translations! [:D]

Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. (NIV)

12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (ESV)

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (KJV)



I love that the Holy Spirit dwells within us and works in us according to His will and pleasure and purpose. It's easy for me to forget that sometimes, though, and become too focused on what I want rather than what God wants.

These verses remind me of where my focus should be. As I read the chapter, I noticed the context in which these verses appear. The passage prior to these verses speaks of living humbly as Christ did and the passage that follows speaks of being light in a dark world.

We're to know that God works within us to change us, but we're also to notice that there's a a reason for this change that reaches beyond us. God uses the changes in us not only as part of the sanctification process but also for the benefit of others who do not believe. Our lives should be a testament to the power of the Holy Spirit.

So, I think my answer to your question, Joy, is that I pray that He will make me who he wants me to be (who he has already planned for me to become) and that I won't get in the way of the Spirit's work. It's just that sometimes that my old self does gets in the way.

Not sure if that answers your question...



shemaromans -> RE: Marriage coach (9/22/2008 7:51:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John_O
I don't see a difference between the two. If I become the best I can be, then I win.

According to the verses, though, John, it's about God's purpose and pleasure. Shouldn't the focus be on what pleases Him instead of you winning? I guess I don't understand what you're saying maybe...



Joy? Am I off-topic?



John_O -> RE: Marriage coach (9/22/2008 9:46:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: shemaromans

quote:

ORIGINAL: John_O
I don't see a difference between the two. If I become the best I can be, then I win.

According to the verses, though, John, it's about God's purpose and pleasure. Shouldn't the focus be on what pleases Him instead of you winning? I guess I don't understand what you're saying maybe...



Joy? Am I off-topic?


Luke 12:31-32. God provides for us and it is His good pleasure to give us the kingdom. So, us being taken care of and blessed IS about God's purpose and pleasure. (Not all of it but certainly part of it)

Further, If I become who God wants me to be I can't help but win.

Matt 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

This verse has always spoken to me that if I let lose of what I think I want (that is, the life I planned) then God will restore to me the life He wants for me which is much better. So, if I become who he wants me to be, I can't help but win.



shemaromans -> RE: Marriage coach (9/22/2008 10:24:10 PM)

In context, of course. [:)]

Matthew 10:34-39
34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

Luke 12:22-34
22And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat, nor about your body, what you will put on. 23For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. 24 Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds! 25And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? 26If then you are not able to do as small a thing as that, why are you anxious about the rest? 27Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 28But if God so clothes the grass, which is alive in the field today, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith! 29And do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink, nor be worried. 30For all the nations of the world seek after these things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you.

32 "Fear not, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.


The thrust of these passages aren't about what we can get from God. They're about what our focus should be. What we get is secondary. God's primary purpose is that He be glorified. Our primary purpose is to honor Him and bring Him glory through our lives. We won't do that well if we're focused on ourselves instead of Him.



Romans 14:16-18
16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
The kingdom of God on earth is about becoming more and more Christlike as we move along in the sanctification process, not about how he blesses us. When he gives us the kingdom, he's developing the fruit in us so that we'll be content with what we have and that we'll trust that he supply our needs and our desires. And we see from the passage above from Matthew that our desires are to be focused on God.


Hebrews 12:28-29
28Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe, 29for our God is a consuming fire.

Notice that this doesn't say for us to believe that we win by dying to self. Instead it says that we should offer to God acceptable worship with reverence and awe. A big difference in perspective.

I guess that's what I'm not understanding about your posts. They seem to be focused on what God gives you rather than how you can serve God. The would make God more of the Team Mom instead of the Coach. [:D]

Make sense? Semantics?



joy2give2u -> RE: Marriage coach (9/22/2008 10:33:52 PM)

quote:

We're to know that God works within us to change us,
The key is how do we define works.......do we see it as what we do,the work we accomplish, or do we see it as a distribution of who we are out to the world?

Does the Holy Spirit distribute in us in order to change us or to reveal us?

I am wondering how many of us in the singles thread are still single because deep down below the surface we don't think we are good enough.

I wonder if the reason we sometimes feel this way is because we see work more about what is being made then what is being distributed........

Is it really the work which changes us or does it just remove from storage and deliver to the outside.

Adam's name, his identity, before the fall did not change at the fall.....yet he no longer saw himself based on his name.....He covered us his identity.......is the same true of us? Do we function, act, even serve the Lord based on who we see ourselves as instead of our true identity?

How many of us see ourselves naked?

quote:

become too focused on what I want rather than what God wants.
What does God want? Does he want us to be busy working to bring Him glory or does he want us to be the type of person who brings Him glory?

Does he want us doing the things we have learned are the right things for a christian to do or does he want us to start walking more and more with the identity he gave us?

Some coaches develop good players who follow the game plan by attacking their weaknesses and trying to get rid of them........others develop good players by identifying their strengths and encouraging them to grow.....Which way does the Holy Spirit work?

Do we look for teammates, or one teammate at least, based on the coaching style we associate with the Holy Spirit?

Do we decide who is a potential based on their weaknesses or strengths?

quote:

Not sure if that answers your question...
Hey sherma if I can figure out what questions I was asking I will let you know if you answered them or not......ok LOL
quote:


Joy? Am I off-topic?
goodness I don't know I can't figure out what the topic is suppose to be about........

Any suggestions?



shemaromans -> RE: Marriage coach (9/22/2008 10:46:08 PM)

quote:


What does God want? Does he want us to be busy working to bring Him glory or does he want us to be the type of person who brings Him glory?

I think the two might go hand in hand. I think He wants us to be the type of person that brings Him glory because who we become should show the fruit of the Spirit more and more. At the same time, this requires work. It's work to read, study, and meditate on scripture. It's work to pray without ceasing. It's work to drop what we're doing to help someone with a need when we'd rather continue doing what we were previously engaged in doing. It doesn't seem like work, though, because the more we do it the more pleasurable it becomes.


I'm thinking about the other questions...


quote:

Hey sherma if I can figure out what questions I was asking I will let you know if you answered them or not......ok LOL

Deal! [:D]



joy2give2u -> RE: Marriage coach (9/22/2008 10:56:18 PM)

Sherma.........you don't have to answer them unless they sparked in you something you want to share.......honestly I don't know where I was going with this thread........to be even more honest I didn't write the thread I started to write because I allowed past responses to threads to make me hesitate and not post what I felt lead to share.......

I owe the folks here in the singles folder a apology........I didn't trust you enough with the golden nugget God had given me, thinking it would only be received as coal, so I didn't post what I was really feeling/thinking.

I am sorry and I am fine Lisa if you want to make this thread go away.....

Sorry again for not caring enough about you all to be open with you all.....

Joy



John_O -> RE: Marriage coach (9/22/2008 11:01:01 PM)

quote:


Notice that this doesn't say for us to believe that we win by dying to self. Instead it says that we should offer to God acceptable worship with reverence and awe. A big difference in perspective.

I guess that's what I'm not understanding about your posts. They seem to be focused on what God gives you rather than how you can serve God. The would make God more of the Team Mom instead of the Coach.

Make sense? Semantics?


Context of Matt 10:39 doesn't seem to affect the meaning for me. If I lay down my life for the one God has for me, I win.

Luke12:31-32 says just what I said it does, God will take care of us and we need to seek His kingdom. It's His pleasure to be good to us. Again context doesn't change that.

quote:

The thrust of these passages aren't about what we can get from God. They're about what our focus should be. What we get is secondary. God's primary purpose is that He be glorified. Our primary purpose is to honor Him and bring Him glory through our lives. We won't do that well if we're focused on ourselves instead of Him.


I never said it was the main purpose. But it is still truth that if I do what God wants, I win. Is it not?


So we see that this is mostly semantics. Where will I be most fulfilled, happiest etc? Doing God's will. Where will God be most glorified (loved etc) in my life? When I'm doing His will. Same thing.

If I become what God wants me to become I win. There is no way to avoid winning when you are doing what God wants you to do.

Being trapped in this imperfect flesh I am still trapped in my self-interested nature. On Earth there is no such thing as altruism. Everyone does what they think will be best for them (in the long run). Even if that is serving God, they do it because that is what they see as best for them (in the long run). And that's OK. I'm just honest enough to admit it. When I do what God wants, I win.



John_O -> RE: Marriage coach (9/22/2008 11:05:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joy2give2u
I am wondering how many of us in the singles thread are still single because deep down below the surface we don't think we are good enough.


I've got the opposite problem, I know I'm good enough. Just can't find anyone else that agrees with me[:D][:D]


quote:


Some coaches develop good players who follow the game plan by attacking their weaknesses and trying to get rid of them........others develop good players by identifying their strengths and encouraging them to grow.....Which way does the Holy Spirit work?


Both I'd say. The Spirit works in us to conform us to Christ. So our strengths will get stronger and our weaknesses will disappear.

quote:

Do we decide who is a potential based on their weaknesses or strengths?


Again, both.



joy2give2u -> RE: Marriage coach (9/22/2008 11:25:53 PM)

quote:

Everyone does what they think will be best for them (in the long run). Even if that is serving God, they do it because that is what they see as best for them (in the long run). And that's OK. I'm just honest enough to admit it. When I do what God wants, I win.
I am not sure what the purpose of this thread was when I posted but I can not leave this statement without a comment......

I do not do what I think is best for me.......I try to do what I think is best for another........that is what love and caring is all about......that is what giving your heart is about.......

I do not serve God because it is best for me in the long run......I would serve the Lord even if there was no heaven and we all went to hell......

I serve my Lord because it is not the destination but the journey which makes my life worth living.........

I don't spend time every day with the Lord nor do I read my bible because it is the best thing for me.......I do it because I can't help myself.......in the rest of my life I am trying so much harder to be intentional in what I do......but when it comes to the Lord I don't have to be intentional.....I don't consider what is best for me or what I will reap.....I just have to be with him.......

coming on here and posting some of the things I post definitely is not always the best for me yet I do it because sometimes I can't stop myself.....I have to share what God is showing, telling or revealing to me....and though the outcome may not be the best thing for me......I can't help but do so....

I don't even know if this makes sense or not to you..........but the one thing I do know, because it is how I use to be, is that I no longer do things because they are in my best interest.......often my interest doesn't even cross my mind....

sorry about the ramble but your statement sparked a fire due to what happened tonight..........you are right most people do what is in their best interest because all most people think about is themselves and what they want.......most people have no clue what it means to sacrifice for another.

OK rant over.....

Read about the three in the furnace.......m,r, and a (too tired to look up spelling for their names but you all know who I mean)

Look what they say to King N.......if you throw us in the furnace our God can save us BUT EVEN IF HE DOESN"T still we will not bow down to you........

That is the love God places in us.......a love for him so deep, so passionate, so strong that even if he never answers our prayers, even if he never rescue us, even if we burn in hell.......we stilll chose to serve and bow down before him..........that is love.....which has nothing to do with what is in our best interest.

ok rant is over for sure this time.....[:)]



John_O -> RE: Marriage coach (9/23/2008 12:14:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joy2give2u

quote:

Everyone does what they think will be best for them (in the long run). Even if that is serving God, they do it because that is what they see as best for them (in the long run). And that's OK. I'm just honest enough to admit it. When I do what God wants, I win.
I am not sure what the purpose of this thread was when I posted but I can not leave this statement without a comment......

I do not do what I think is best for me.......I try to do what I think is best for another........that is what love and caring is all about......that is what giving your heart is about.......

I do not serve God because it is best for me in the long run......I would serve the Lord even if there was no heaven and we all went to hell......

I serve my Lord because it is not the destination but the journey which makes my life worth living.........

I don't spend time every day with the Lord nor do I read my bible because it is the best thing for me.......I do it because I can't help myself.......in the rest of my life I am trying so much harder to be intentional in what I do......but when it comes to the Lord I don't have to be intentional.....I don't consider what is best for me or what I will reap.....I just have to be with him.......

coming on here and posting some of the things I post definitely is not always the best for me yet I do it because sometimes I can't stop myself.....I have to share what God is showing, telling or revealing to me....and though the outcome may not be the best thing for me......I can't help but do so....

I don't even know if this makes sense or not to you..........but the one thing I do know, because it is how I use to be, is that I no longer do things because they are in my best interest.......often my interest doesn't even cross my mind....

sorry about the ramble but your statement sparked a fire due to what happened tonight..........you are right most people do what is in their best interest because all most people think about is themselves and what they want.......most people have no clue what it means to sacrifice for another.

OK rant over.....

Read about the three in the furnace.......m,r, and a (too tired to look up spelling for their names but you all know who I mean)

Look what they say to King N.......if you throw us in the furnace our God can save us BUT EVEN IF HE DOESN"T still we will not bow down to you........

That is the love God places in us.......a love for him so deep, so passionate, so strong that even if he never answers our prayers, even if he never rescue us, even if we burn in hell.......we stilll chose to serve and bow down before him..........that is love.....which has nothing to do with what is in our best interest.

ok rant is over for sure this time.....[:)]



Read your post again. You do a lot because you can't help yourself, you want to do it. The journey is rewarding to you etc. And that is good. God wants us to want to love Him.

As the disciples said when Jesus asked if they would leave Him too "You have the words of life, Where else would we go?" That both recognizes His worth and recognizes their own interest in Him.

I don't see anything wrong with admitting that I do want something out of my relationship with Jesus. I want to spend eternity in Heaven with Him. I want to be blessed here on Earth, I want my family to be saved. All things He promises in His word. Is it wrong to want what He wants to give us?

I guess I do have to modify my statement a wee bit. Man always does what he wants to do. Sometimes that may not be in his long term best interest (But I can't think of an example at the moment)



joy2give2u -> RE: Marriage coach (9/23/2008 12:32:32 AM)

quote:

All things He promises in His word. Is it wrong to want what He wants to give us?
yes if the want is the reason ........

I did reread my post and do not read it as you do........you read my post and see me doing things because it is in my best interest.....nor do I want to do it.....

This afternoon, instead of doing my homework, I went to a defense......I had no interest in the topic nor did I really understand most of what she was talking about.........why did I go?

Not because it was in my best interest.......it was not........I had to take time off work, give up my study time and find someone to run an errand for me......

I went because my father taught me what sacrifice means......he taught me how important it is to support and be there for people when they need you and sometimes even when they don't think they do.

I knew her mother could not come........her sister was not coming, nor her boyfriend, and her friends and co workers.....those who should have been there were not because they did not want to sacrifice their time.......

I went because I could not imagine having no one there when I accomplished something I had worked five long hard years to achieve.......I could not imagine having no one there to give me a hug and say well done....

So I went.....I said nothing........I was just there.....

I did not go because it was in my best interest but because I knew it was in her best interest...........

I can not understand why those how claim to love her could stay away......I really can't.........how can people be so self absorbed they don't even take the time to be there even if there is nothing for them to gain and it is not in their best interest......

I am sorry John I don't understand that mentality.......but I do know even if it was not in my best interest.......I still had to go.

You did not comment on the furnace guys.......how was there statement about what was in their best interest.......they were not wanting someone else in their family saved, nor were they wanting God to protect them though they knew he could.......no they were not thinking of what they wanted or what we in their best interest.......they were thinking that no matter what they would not bow before another.



John_O -> RE: Marriage coach (9/23/2008 12:42:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joy2give2u
You did not comment on the furnace guys.......how was there statement about what was in their best interest.......they were not wanting someone else in their family saved, nor were they wanting God to protect them though they knew he could.......no they were not thinking of what they wanted or what we in their best interest.......they were thinking that no matter what they would not bow before another.


Shadrack, Meshack and Abednego. They refused to bow to Nebechanezzer's idol. Doing so would have been committing sin against God. They refused to sin. So they did what they wanted to do, they stayed true to God.



joy2give2u -> RE: Marriage coach (9/23/2008 12:59:11 AM)

quote:

Man always does what he wants to do. Sometimes that may not be in his long term best interest
You have never looked in the eyes of one who can barely walk two steps and seen how much he did not want to go to a ball game.......you have not seen his brow fural in pain with each step........nor the determination to go even if it meant he who suffer horribly for days afterwards.......

You have not heard his softly spoken words declaring he wished he did not have to go.......nor heard the forced cheer in his voice as he shallowed the pain so that his granddaughters and daughters would not know how much it cost him to come.....

You have no clue what it looks like when a man lays down his life for those he loves........what it sounds like when he chooses not to do what he wants to do.........or what the pain feels like to do what is not the best for you......

You can post theory and opinions stating that man always does what he wants to do and that everything a man chooses to do is in his best interest......but until you have watched someone sacrifice his own wants, desires, hopes and dreams for another.......and do so not because he chooses to but because his love demands it of him.....you really have no clue what love can do.

Above all once commented that I was taking things to personally, which I wasn't, but this time I am.....and since I am I will stop posting for now.......

I do not mean to come off mean or judgemental.........but I have watched a man lay down his life for others and you know what it was not in his best interest........it killed him



shemaromans -> RE: Marriage coach (9/23/2008 1:19:06 AM)

I think in the case of a man laying down his life for others, he does it out of duty. For the unsaved military man, he does it because of his duty to country. Policemen put themselves in harm's way because it's their duty to serve and protect. Christians, they do it out of obedience to God. Jesus asked in Gethsemane for God to make it possible for him to not go through with the crucifixion. We know that he obeyed God's will.

Almost every night last week, a woman from our church came over, ate with us, stayed until 9pm enjoying our AC and TV, then went home. You don't know how many times I dreaded when dinnertime approached because I knew she would arrive soon. I didn't want to be hospitable because I had been hospitable feeding and helping others already throughout the day. I wanted quiet time. I didn't want to continue being hospitable. I did, though, but not because I wanted to. God tells us to care for others' needs when we are able to. I didn't want to help this woman, but what I wanted to do was obey God. So, I did. But I didn't obey God to get anything out of it. It's what we're supposed to do.

John, I understand what you mean when you say that man chooses to do what he desires most(That's partially why I believe in radical corruption/total depravity). But it's the Holy Spirit that works in us to conform us to His will. The more He's in control of our lives, then the less we'll be self-focused. He wants us to move beyond satisfying our natural selves, and Paul tells us in all things to consider others as better than ourselves (Phil 2:3). If we're looking for what we can get out of serving God rather than how our service helps others and brings glory to God, then I think we're failing to become how God wants us to be. It isn't about us, no matter what our natural selves are like. That's why I wrote this previously:
quote:

Romans 14:16-18
16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
The kingdom of God on earth is about becoming more and more Christlike as we move along in the sanctification process, not about how he blesses us. When he gives us the kingdom, he's developing the fruit in us so that we'll be content with what we have and that we'll trust that he supply our needs and our desires. And we see from the passage above from Matthew that our desires are to be focused on God.


Plus, we're no longer slaves of the flesh, but supposed to be slaves to righteousness. The Holy Spirit provides a way to move beyond how we were when we were lost.

Rambling...

Joy, I'm glad that you spoke up. I didn't because I was feeling like I had derailed your thread and opened a can of worms. I agree with you, though, and am grateful that you addressed what you did.

edit: spelling error



joy2give2u -> RE: Marriage coach (9/23/2008 9:54:27 AM)

quote:

I think in the case of a man laying down his life for others, he does it out of duty. For the unsaved military man, he does it because of his duty to country. Policemen put themselves in harm's way because it's their duty to serve and protect. Christians, they do it out of obedience to God. Jesus asked in Gethsemane for God to make it possible for him to not go through with the crucifixion. We know that he obeyed God's will.
I disagree.......not that a military man does it because of duty to country or that a policeman does it to serve and protect........nor even that often Christians do it out of a obedience to the Lord.........which was shown in your example of the person coming to your house.........I disagree as to why Jesus did what he did and why we are suppose to do so as well.

There is a difference from laying down your life for duty or obedience and doing so because of love.

I don't serve the Lord because it would be a sin not too.......nor do I believe Jesus did as he did because of obedience.........he might have made the decision to do so, in the garden, out of obedience but as he endured the beatings, walked down the via delorisa(sp?) carrying His cross, felt such pain and could no longer carry his cross because of his great suffering I believe it was out of love not obedience ....there is a huge difference.

I think understanding the difference is the difference between those Christians who walk in legalism and those who walk in freedom.

Legalism tells us obeying the laws, doing what the bible tells us to do and living a good christian life will bring us closer to the Lord...........

Freedom on the other hand is driven not by laws but love. Freedom comes from allowing yourself to fall so deeply in love with the Lord that your actions reflect his heart.......it is love which draws us closer to the Lord.

Living a good christian life doesn't bring us closer to God, being closer to God leads to living a good christian life.


Legalism says obedience leads to love...........freedom says love leads to obedience..........

Some may say there is no difference but I know there is........you see for a very large part of my life I lived a very good christian life........I did everything I was suppose to do......I read the bible every day, memorized bible verses, prayed before every meal and through out the day, went to church, and tried to always make the "right" decision when it came to what to do........I did things for others because obedience to the Lord was my duty, my desire, my need because in that obedience I received what was best for me......I chose to do what I knew was the right thing because it was in my best interest to be obedient to the Lord.

I no longer live my life that way..........if I were to meet someone from when I was in college and they observed my behavior they may not notice a difference..........I still do many of the things I did before..........but now I do not do them out of a choice to be obedient..........I do them because I can feel God's tears when one of his children needs help.........I do so not to grow closer to the Lord but because of my closeness with Him.

quote:

If we're looking for what we can get out of serving God rather than how our service helps others and brings glory to God, then I think we're failing to become how God wants us to
I don't do things because of how my service will help others nor because it will bring glory to God.......Glory to God is not the reason but the result......helping others is not the reason but the result..........the result of a relationship between God and one he created in His imagine..............The result of walking side by side..........

To relate this to singles.........would you marry someone who was a good father, husband, took care of you and provided for you.........out of a sense of duty or because of obedience to the Lord?

I won't..........I will marry a man who does these things not because of duty or obedience but because of love.......love for me, love for the children but more importantly love for the Lord.



John_O -> RE: Marriage coach (9/23/2008 11:28:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joy2give2u

quote:

Man always does what he wants to do. Sometimes that may not be in his long term best interest
You have never looked in the eyes of one who can barely walk two steps and seen how much he did not want to go to a ball game.......you have not seen his brow fural in pain with each step........nor the determination to go even if it meant he who suffer horribly for days afterwards.......

You have not heard his softly spoken words declaring he wished he did not have to go.......nor heard the forced cheer in his voice as he shallowed the pain so that his granddaughters and daughters would not know how much it cost him to come.....

You have no clue what it looks like when a man lays down his life for those he loves........what it sounds like when he chooses not to do what he wants to do.........or what the pain feels like to do what is not the best for you......

You can post theory and opinions stating that man always does what he wants to do and that everything a man chooses to do is in his best interest......but until you have watched someone sacrifice his own wants, desires, hopes and dreams for another.......and do so not because he chooses to but because his love demands it of him.....you really have no clue what love can do.

Above all once commented that I was taking things to personally, which I wasn't, but this time I am.....and since I am I will stop posting for now.......

I do not mean to come off mean or judgemental.........but I have watched a man lay down his life for others and you know what it was not in his best interest........it killed him


I mean no offense. But your dad did exactly what he wanted to do. The joy he gave his granddaughters was worth more to him than his own pain. Sure it was a sacrifice, but it was a sacrifice he freely took on because he wanted to. He did lay down his life for his family. He wanted for them more than he wanted for himself. And that is one sign of a great man.



John_O -> RE: Marriage coach (9/23/2008 11:42:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: shemaromans

I didn't want to help this woman, but what I wanted to do was obey God. So, I did. But I didn't obey God to get anything out of it. It's what we're supposed to do.


So you did what you wanted to do. Please read on....

quote:

John, I understand what you mean when you say that man chooses to do what he desires most(That's partially why I believe in radical corruption/total depravity). But it's the Holy Spirit that works in us to conform us to His will. The more He's in control of our lives, then the less we'll be self-focused. He wants us to move beyond satisfying our natural selves, and Paul tells us in all things to consider others as better than ourselves (Phil 2:3). If we're looking for what we can get out of serving God rather than how our service helps others and brings glory to God, then I think we're failing to become how God wants us to be. It isn't about us, no matter what our natural selves are like. That's why I wrote this previously:


Somehow I'm not making myself clear as we seem to be in agreement but not understanding each other.

Man does what he wants to do. Always. We serve God because we want to serve God (after being saved. (to avoid CvA arguements)). Every pleasnat or unpleasant thing we ever do we do because we want to do it. (Now for the unpleasant stuff it may be that we are choosing the lessor or two evils, that is, it's more unpleasant to not do the unpleasant stuff than it is to do it. or we see some benefit by laying down our lives for our families as in Joy's post)

As we continue to grow in Christ our wants line up with his wants for us (Psalm 37:1-5). We are still doing what we want but we now want more of what he wants and less of what we used to want.

This whole discussion started off with the "I win" when I become who God wants me to be point. Who I am today is different from who I was yesterday, or last week and certainly before I was saved. What I want now is radically different than what I wanted then. I did what I wanted then and thought I was happy. I do what I want now, a want much more closely aligned to God's wants for me, and inspite of everything know I am much happier. When I become who God wants me to be I win.

This is not saying that winning is the goal. This is saying that winning is the unavoidable by product of becomming who God wants me to be. (perhaps this is the piece that was missing?)



John_O -> RE: Marriage coach (9/23/2008 11:45:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joy2give2u
Living a good christian life doesn't bring us closer to God, being closer to God leads to living a good christian life.


Excellent point!!!


quote:

To relate this to singles.........would you marry someone who was a good father, husband, took care of you and provided for you.........out of a sense of duty or because of obedience to the Lord?

I won't..........I will marry a man who does these things not because of duty or obedience but because of love.......love for me, love for the children but more importantly love for the Lord.


Another excellent point!



joy2give2u -> RE: Marriage coach (9/23/2008 11:55:11 AM)

quote:


I mean no offense. But your dad did exactly what he wanted to do
No there were many times where the pain so great that he did not enjoy the games or even the happiness of the girls that he was there...........but he went because he knew though it was not what he wanted.........it was what the girls wanted........so he went.

Last Sat I had plans to go to a harvest festival with the girls.......I had been looking forward to it for a week.........

My sister and I had not told the girls we were going to take them because we wanted it to be a surprise.

I really wanted to go and it was in my best interest to go.........the reward would be huge.......a whole day doing crafts, hiking, playing games with the girls and seeing their excitement riding the horses.......

I didn't go.

Why?

Because K called me, she was having a very bad few days and wanted to go to the beach. I went.

Now I love the beach but I really wanted to go with the girls........but I didn't........

Why?

Because I did what I wanted to do? NO

Because I did what was in my best interest? No

I did it because I love K..........and love compels you to action........not out of thoughts for yourself or what you want to do but out of thoughts for another.

Do you want to marry a woman who marries you because she wants to and because it is her best interest?

When I marry I will marry a man more because of what I can give to him then what he can do for me.



shemaromans -> RE: Marriage coach (9/23/2008 12:05:06 PM)

Excellent thoughts, Joy. Thank you for sharing them. I agree with them, at least in part.

The Bible tells us that Jesus acted according both to love and to obedience and also that obedience stems from love. Love precedes and develops obedience.

1 John 2:3-6
"We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did."

1 John 3:16-24
This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us."


Romans 5:19
"For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous"

Romans 6:15-17
"What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,"

Romans 15:17-19
"In Christ Jesus, then, I have reason to be proud of my work for God. For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience—by word and deed, by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God—so that from Jerusalem and all the way around to Illyricum I have fulfilled the ministry of the gospel of Christ;"

Romans 16:18-19
"For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. For your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, but I want you to be wise as to what is good and innocent as to what is evil."

Romans 16:25-27
"Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages but has now been disclosed and through the prophetic writings has been made known to all nations, according to the command of the eternal God, to bring about the obedience of faith—to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen."

2 Cor 10:5-6
"We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete."

Hebrews 5:7-9
"In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,"

1 Peter 1:1-2
"To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:"

1 Peter 1:22-23
"Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart, since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;"



I see legalism and freedom a little bit differently in this context. Here's hoping that I can explain myself clearly. :)

I've never met a Christian, including myself, that didn't go through some form of legalistic experience. My analysis of this is that it's part of the sanctification process. (From here on I'm using "we" instead of "I" so that I won't have to look at "I" too much! No universal generalization is intended however.)

When we first become saved and start learning more about God, we want to learn how to please Him. We try and try. Through this, we hopefully realize that we can't do it on our own. Once this realization occurs, we begin to understand more deeply verses such as the Philippians verses in the OP.

We can't do it on our own, which helps us to understand better the freedom we have in Christ.

We also don't die to self immediately. The Holy Spirit causes that change as we grow in our relationship with God, and that change continues throughout our lives. We'll never completely change until we're glorified. This realization also helps us--at least me--to appreciate God's love more profoundly, which in turn increases our love for him.

So, I see it originating neither from legalism nor freedom but from love.

Does any of that make sense?


quote:

Living a good christian life doesn't bring us closer to God, being closer to God leads to living a good christian life.

Totally agreed.


quote:

Glory to God is not the reason but the result

I see glory to God as both the reason and the result.


quote:

To relate this to singles.........would you marry someone who was a good father, husband, took care of you and provided for you.........out of a sense of duty or because of obedience to the Lord?

God knows if I will or will not marry and will guide me in my discovery of what He has planned for me. Since the Holy Spirit works within in me to conform me to His will, if he wants me to marry someone then He will align my will with His and it will happen. In that sense, then I will be obedient to the Lord.


Note: I'm still drinking coffee. The potential exists that my thoughts sound like gibberish!



John_O -> RE: Marriage coach (9/23/2008 3:03:42 PM)

Good post 23 Shema.



John_O -> RE: Marriage coach (9/23/2008 3:15:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: joy2give2u
Do you want to marry a woman who marries you because she wants to and because it is her best interest?


I certainly don't want to marry a woman who DOESN'T want to marry me or who thinks it is not in her best interest to marry me. Why start the marriage with one person already unhappy about it?


quote:


When I marry I will marry a man more because of what I can give to him then what he can do for me.


If she wants to marry me she will also want to give to me (that is, be a full partner building a life together with me). The two are inseperable concepts for me. When I marry I will want to marry her and I will want to make her life a joy as far as the capability exists within me. How could it be otherwise?



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