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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 7:08:24 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.
The above quote should be very telling to the American people that this bailout is not for us nor is it about our best interest.
This is to ensure that the wealthy remain wealthy at the expense and sole discretion of the Treasury.
If this bailout is a loan, what is our return interest rate?
What are the benefits to the American people for "loaning " them our money?
If it doesn't get paid back, then what kind of loan would that be really? Isn't that more like they are taking our money and expect us to just keep quiet about the whole thing?
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 7:24:21 AM
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deliveredarling
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Also, here is a novel idea to save taxpayers the money......
1.) End the war in Irag at a savings of $10 billion per month.....
2.) As a consequence to the greedy, have them sell their assets or turn them over for assets for the gov to sell. Those golden toilet seats must be worth a small fortune currently....
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 8:08:08 AM
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bzirk
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What I'd like to see in this proposal is some specific verbiage about the debt being paid down and/or the taxpayers being paid back. Where is that? It AIN'T there, friends. If those bad debts actually turn around and make money, do you think the fat cats in Washington are actually going to pay down the debt or pay us back? I've got some land in Florida if you believe that.
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may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 10:19:13 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
What I'd like to see in this proposal is some specific verbiage about the debt being paid down and/or the taxpayers being paid back. Where is that? It AIN'T there, friends. If those bad debts actually turn around and make money, do you think the fat cats in Washington are actually going to pay down the debt or pay us back? I've got some land in Florida if you believe that.
A prior poster's idea of putting this in a "fund" format with the US taxpayer as equity holder actually has a lot of merit & could address this. You would at least have some transparency in knowing where the money went & some hope of actually seeing at least a portion of it returned.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 10:22:54 AM
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NoShow
Posts: 462
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Why not just follow Warren Buffett's lead:
quote:
Billionaire investor Warren Buffett, who tells investors to be "greedy when others are fearful,'' put up $5 billion for Goldman Sachs Group Inc. after the firm lost 40 percent of its market value in the past year.
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 10:39:14 AM
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AdrianaS
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: AdrianaS
I was thinking that the Gov could do a deal with us..for exemple if we come up with this debt money up front and lend to them to put in a fund or I dont know what and we end up having the interests on it somehow if they decide to give the 700billions bit by bit... we end up not losing all the debt $ took under our names and even making someprofits with thw bad paper we are going to buy etc. Plus everybody who paid their debts in advance would belong to a group that the Gov could not include as part of any new crazy debt for at least "x" long years etc.
Actually, that's quite an excellent idea. At least if the government DOES end up making a buck or two we'll actually know what happened.
As far as the $30k per person debt number goes, it's about right. Adding the $10k per tax paying head number onto that gives you something like $90k per taxpayer.
Before you freak out, there's something wierd about government accounting. To the government, everything is an expense. When it builds a bridge, that's an expense. When it builds a toll road, that's an expense.
In reality, these infrastructure things are also assets. A private company would show the outlay as the creation of an asset with an offsetting liability.
What the government debt numbers don't show are the value of the things we spend the money on. Somethings, like welfare, don't have much of a financial value. There's no asset that was created. Other things, like a road or a building, have significant value.
What the $90k number doesn't include is the value of the assets being purchased. Whether that's the $700 billion of bad debt (which will have some value something around $700 billion but probably a bit less) or the value of the roads, buildings, battleships, etc being purchased, the value of those things should be considered as well. What's important isn't just the overall dollars per head number but also what's the value of the assets that were purchased.
BT
Thank you!  Well, don't know but if before the derailment of the train and the private market was going to come up with the $ that the Gov is having to come up now I think it may be lucrative because those people from the private market would not invest without making profits somehow..I guess and they are pro in that !
Why the Gov chose to have weird accounting? Do all the Govs in the world practice that because they are Govs? I kind wish to separate things as for exemple the debts with wars, as the debts with bails out, those kind of debts you know? Of course the USA may not use the services of IMF still those who lend $ to the Gov do it to get their interests back etc if the interestes are like the IMF asks for poor nations and you end up "never" paying their Nations debt if so if soooo much struggle etc etc I sure would not be paying interestes for my portion of the Gov debt, particularly in such a rich nation as US. Do those people USA own have "nasty" practices as IMF does? Or because USA is rich it receives the same treatment some rich people may receive for being wealthy?
I sure do not have my debt share yet for now because of he economy and market...but when have it would prefer sacrifice some stuff as I do not plan to buy a house anyways and because interest of this debt and that this nation is accumulating more debt also and depending who is in power we will end up going to more wars plus the military budget is skyrcoketing etc It is very costly to live in some rich nations (the Nordics ones I supose..) more than others, not even thinking about regular tax etc but because military and markets and other things I don't know about also.
I do have an issue about not only the public debt put the US people own personal debts particularly in credit cards. I think everybody must change courses because those Companies are making lots of profits on our backs! We must fight for changes begining with the situation companies send by mail all kinds of credit cards to young people start to be on debt and they not even work yet but are studying still.
ok I rest my case for now..LOL
Thanks GW.
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 10:39:16 AM
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NoShow
Posts: 462
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
BTW, I've been waiting to buy some things up myself -- namely real estate. The prices have never gone down like I think they should in my neck of the woods. I may have to buy anyway since the taxpayer money is going to keep that market a little inflated. We'll see.
Look hard at your cost-of-holding.
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 10:44:11 AM
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bzirk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NoShow
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
BTW, I've been waiting to buy some things up myself -- namely real estate. The prices have never gone down like I think they should in my neck of the woods. I may have to buy anyway since the taxpayer money is going to keep that market a little inflated. We'll see.
Look hard at your cost-of-holding.
Good point. What's helpful is that there is such a great rental market here. People are almost waiting in line, and I don't expect that to go away.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 10:48:11 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AdrianaS
Thank you! Well, don't know but if before the derailment of the train and the private market was going to come up with the $ that the Gov is having to come up now I think it may be lucrative because those people from the private market would not invest without making profits somehow..I guess and they are pro in that !
Why the Gov chose to have weird accounting? Do all the Govs in the world practice that because they are Govs? I kind wish to separate things as for exemple the debts with wars, as the debts with bails out, those kind of debts you know? Of course the USA may not use the services of IMF still those who lend $ to the Gov do it to get their interests back etc if the interestes are like the IMF asks for poor nations and you end up "never" paying their Nations debt if so if soooo much struggle etc etc I sure would not be paying interestes for my portion of the Gov debt, particularly in such a rich nation as US. Do those people USA own have "nasty" practices as IMF does? Or because USA is rich it receives the same treatment some rich people may receive for being wealthy?
FYI - the government uses this kind of accounting since a lot of what the government "invests" in is really kind of difficult to value. Really, what is the value of building a Hadron Collider or a Space Shuttle. Yes, most governments account for things this way.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 10:51:31 AM
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GroupW
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It should moderate some, but no it won't go away anytime soon. It's likely a 4-5 year phenomenon with a potentially longer tail on it.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 10:54:14 AM
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NoShow
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
As to Warren Buffett, anyone surprised by his latest move doesn't know a whole lot about Buffett and value investing. I'm sure he's been lickin' his chops to buy Goldman when it hit the right price. I don't blame him. If I had a spare 5 billion, I'd buy Goldman too. 
I just found his "timing" interesting.
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 10:57:12 AM
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GroupW
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His timing has always been interesting. There has never been a person better at bottom fishing.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 11:01:41 AM
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NoShow
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
His timing has always been interesting. There has never been a person better at bottom fishing.
One could make an argument for Sam Zell. Though Sam likes to refer to it as "grave dancing."
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 11:08:23 AM
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GroupW
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He's got shareholders that he's responsible to & has a legal duty to look after them.
Goldman is fundamentally sound with some of the best risk managers around. I think he saw a bargain.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 11:12:14 AM
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bzirk
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
He's got shareholders that he's responsible to & has a legal duty to look after them.
Goldman is fundamentally sound with some of the best risk managers around. I think he saw a bargain.
No question he saw a bargain. I don't think Buffett would buy if it wasn't a bargain. But I'll bet he wanted to beat some some others out who saw a bargain as well and that's why he jumped now.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 12:41:37 PM
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GroupW
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I'm guessing you're probably right. There were some foreign sovreign funds sniffing around.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 1:56:08 PM
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mrtigger
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I know the thread has meandered around but I want to put my 2 cents in on the threads original question. Namely:
Can bailout fix US economy?
The economy itself is not in that bad of shape. It's not in good shape but is not bad either. If it was actually just about the economy, we would not be needing a bailout at all.
The bailout is is intended to get the banking system through the crisis is currently in. Sick as it is, I believe a bailout is the only option they have. Doing nothing would likely result in a great depression like situation. That would kill the economy. And be much worse for all of us than paying for a bailout.
This bailout however, will not solve the real problem. The root of the problem comes from the bad debt that is coming in from the housing mess. The housing market is still falling and bad debt is still coming in to the system. This bailout does not fix that part of the problem.
If nothing else is done to decrease future foreclosures, this is not likely the only bailout of this magnitude that will be required. Right now, I think about 1/3 of subprime mortgages are in default. If nothing is done to stem the problem, I think nearly all subprime mortgages will eventually wind up in default. So, there likely will be at least one more and maybe several more huge chunks of taxpayer money that will be needed before this is over.
Homeowners need to be both encouraged and threatened to stay in their homes and pay the debt they agreed to pay. That will reduce the amount of bad debt coming into the system. That is the real solution and is what really needs to be addressed to fix the problem.
We need to make it possible for homeowners to stay in their homes and continue to pay the mortgage debt that they agreed to pay. I would support some program to allow them to refinance their predatory mortgages into one they can actually pay. AND ALSO institute punitive measures for any homeowner that goes into foreclosure. Something a 100% income tax on any mortgage debt that is forgiven during foreclosure would certainly discourage the "just walk away" mentality that has been gaining ground amoung homeowners in trouble.
_____________________________
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 2:07:19 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrtigger
Right now, I think about 1/3 of subprime mortgages are in default. If nothing is done to stem the problem, I think nearly all subprime mortgages will eventually wind up in default.
10 years ago, I would have told you that you should expect subprime mortgage defaults to run at the 33% cumulative level. I'm completely NOT surprised that we stand somewhere in this vicinity today. 10 years ago, the underwriting standards on subprime were actually a bit better than in recent years. I wouldn't be surprised to see default rates hitting the low 50s or 60s but probably not that much higher.
It's not likely to get tremendously worse. Subprime defaults are actually starting to slow down a bit. At some point, there's a phenomenon we call "burnout" that starts to factor in. At some point, all the loans that were going to go bad have done so and leave behind a fairly stable population of loans that default at something approaching a normal pace.
The interesting thing about this current cycle is the speed of early or 1st payment defaults. For example, one issuer out there had 12% of it's production default within the first 12 months! That's just incredible. This is a symptom of bad underwriting.
To some extent, we've done two things - 1) we underestimated the cumulative likely default rate in recent years, and 2) we've front loaded a lot of the defaults into the early years. This should result in slightly lower default rates in future years as "burnout" starts to come into play.
You're already seeing the beginnings of it - default rates on prime mortgages are increasing at a much faster pace than subprime.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 2:12:53 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
Sec. 10. Increase in Statutory Limit on the Public Debt.
Subsection (b) of section 3101 of title 31, United States Code, is amended by striking out the dollar limitation contained in such subsection and inserting in lieu thereof $11,315,000,000,000.
Read the rest here.
Did you notice that this $700 Billion bailout in section 10 raises the legal amount of public debt by almost four trillion dollars ($3.931 trillion to be exact) from $7.384 trillion to $11.315 trillion? What is the other $3.231 trillion required for?
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 2:17:41 PM
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NoShow
Posts: 462
Joined: 5/10/2005
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
Sec. 10. Increase in Statutory Limit on the Public Debt.
Subsection (b) of section 3101 of title 31, United States Code, is amended by striking out the dollar limitation contained in such subsection and inserting in lieu thereof $11,315,000,000,000.
Read the rest here.
Did you notice that this $700 Billion bailout in section 10 raises the legal amount of public debt by almost four trillion dollars ($3.931 trillion to be exact) from $7.384 trillion to $11.315 trillion? What is the other $3.231 trillion required for?
Future "growth". Not necessarily related to the current issue(s).
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 2:21:31 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
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From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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NoShow is right. Every year or even more often we bump into the debt ceiling and have to tack on a provision like this. In wartime and during an economic crisis it comes up very frequently and isn't unusual or necessarily nefarious.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 2:24:46 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NoShow
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
Sec. 10. Increase in Statutory Limit on the Public Debt.
Subsection (b) of section 3101 of title 31, United States Code, is amended by striking out the dollar limitation contained in such subsection and inserting in lieu thereof $11,315,000,000,000.
Read the rest here.
quote:
Did you notice that this $700 Billion bailout in section 10 raises the legal amount of public debt by almost four trillion dollars ($3.931 trillion to be exact) from $7.384 trillion to $11.315 trillion? What is the other $3.231 trillion required for?
Future "growth". Not necessarily related to the current issue(s).
That what I love about Washington. Let's see how much pork goes through on added subsections on this bill. They "had to do it" to garner (buy-off) the necessary votes.
I smell a pig! 3.231 trillion of them to be exact! But they all look like elephants and donkeys!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Can bailout fix US economy? - 9/24/2008 3:47:25 PM
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47.samuel
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ravishingshloka
The best test of whether the government's $700 billion check will be enough to save the U.S. economy is how much of that money flows back to consumers and companies . Even if the government gets Congressional approval this week to buy bad debts off banks' books, satisfying some of their cash needs, the financial sector will still need to raise money -- and investors haven't exactly been lining up to help. Unless banks can find funding somewhere, they won't be eager to resume lending, and that will leave the economy sputtering. What is your take on this?
http://utvi.myrecourl.com
*****************************************************************************quote:
Corruption Perceptions Index (2007)
Overview of the index of perception of corruption, 2007Since 1995, Transparency International has published an annual Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI) ordering the countries of the world according to "the degree to which corruption is perceived to exist among public officials and politicians".
Rank / Country / Index
******************************************
1 Denmark 9.4
1 Finland 9.4
1 New Zealand 9.4
4 Singapore 9.3
4 Sweden 9.3
6 Iceland 9.2
7 Netherlands 9.0
7 Switzerland 9.0
9 Canada 8.7
9 Norway 8.7
11 Australia 8.6
12 Luxembourg 8.4
12 United Kingdom 8.4
14 Hong Kong 8.3
15 Austria 8.1
16 Germany 7.8
17 Republic of Ireland 7.5
17 Japan 7.5
19 France 7.3
20 United States (American territory) 7.2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
*****************************************************************************
In 2007, Americans were still living with the illusions of the "American Dream" and a Republican Administration that preached the virtues of capitalism - free of government restraint.
What is interesting that the vast majority of nations that ranked above America even in 2007 were all considered "SOCIALIST" - by US standards.
"Do you hear the people sing, singing the songs of angry men ....." (LES MIZ)
< Message edited by 47.samuel -- 9/24/2008 4:39:40 PM >
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