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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 9/23/2008 8:27:17 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
There were two boys who grew up listening to their father tell them about God and the things that God had accomplished in the father’s life.
Now we are told in the bible that faith comes by hearing and I agree with the truth of this. We have to understand what it is that we will believe in and unless someone informs us of the truth how will we know.
But it seems there was another component involved with the two boys because both sat at the knee of the father and heard the same message…one ended up believing and the other couldn’t find it within his heart to accept what the father was saying.
Abel’s offering to the LORD was accepted because it came from a heart of love and obedience’s but Cain’s offering was rejected because his heart was disobedience to God.
Cain wanted God to approve of him and love him but he was unable to change his heart and gain God’s approval even though God gave him the opportunity;
Genesis 4:6 - 7 (KJV) 6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Abel was drawn to God but Cain wasn’t.
Bob
Bob,
I'd like to point out that Geneses 4 would have evidence that Abel's heart wasn't in the right place, but it does not have hard evidence that Able COULDN'T change, although I would agree that he DID'T change.
Pay close attention to 4: 3 "in the course of time" (He, Abel, placed himself higher in importance than sacrificing to God). 4:4 reads "of the firstborn" (Cain acknowledged God with his "first fruits").
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Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 9/23/2008 9:35:02 PM
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GraceBro
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quote:
The catch is that one's experiences and circumstances inevitably affect our views. I'm pretty sure that is what was suggested in the OP, not that we consciously refer to them in determining what we hold to be true, but that they influence us, even as we try to look at the world as impassively or as objectively as we can.
What I am saying is that many people will take their experience, find a verse, and make a truth out of it. That is what I am warning against. Entire religions have come from this sort of error. We take the truth of scripture and then apply it to our circumstances, not the other way around.
Grace and Peace
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http://96toLife.blogspot.com
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 10/1/2008 12:16:47 PM
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abraxas
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I suspect that despite the many interpretations of the Bible, there are very few who claim, or think, that they are doing what you're warning against. How would you demonstrate that that is what someone is doing, and how would you show that it's not what you're doing?
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 10/1/2008 12:33:47 PM
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abraxas
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Back to the OP...
Really, why would any of us choose to believe something? Peer pressure? Fear of punishment? Desire for an answer--any answer--to a big question? Dislike of the alternative?
Those could all very likely play some role in the opinions/beliefs of people, but who is comfortable applying that to themselves? Don't people typically prefer to think that they, and their reasoning skills, are up to the task of forming accurate opinions/beliefs about reality? Wouldn't most people claim that it's actual truthfulness that they desire to believe?
I suspect so, and going on that assumption--Again, why would we choose to believe something? Because it has persuaded us of its truthfulness! Correct or not, it has persuaded us! We believe it!
So what is the choice to believe then? Is it possible to
A) be persuaded of the truthfulness of something, yet
B) simultaneously still not believe it, pending a "choice"?
I don't think so. And if you're not persuaded of the truthfulness of it, but chose to believe it, what was your motivation? Did I list it above?
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 10/6/2008 11:51:47 AM
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mcleod
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Say Folksingerblues am I reading this right? Could you have accidently switched Abel for Cain?
quote:
Bob,
I'd like to point out that Geneses 4 would have evidence that Abel's heart wasn't in the right place, but it does not have hard evidence that Able COULDN'T change, although I would agree that he DID'T change.
Pay close attention to 4: 3 "in the course of time" (He, Abel, placed himself higher in importance than sacrificing to God). 4:4 reads "of the firstborn" (Cain acknowledged God with his "first fruits").
In the course of time Cain brought some of the first fruits of the soil as a offering to the Lord. But Abel brought fat portions from some of the first born of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry and his face was downcast.
What you need to read in this passage is the attitude in which it was given unto the Lord. First it was possible a sin offering. Which Adam and Eve were shown in the garden. What the requirements was for that. For God sacrificed a animal and clothed them withit. For as it is read in Leviticus" the life of the animal is in it's blood".
Paul goes into saying "There is no difference, for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrific of atonement, through faith in his blood." So please notice the common denominator in what is being required to have peace with God the Father.
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 10/6/2008 2:45:46 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
Man is unable to believe in anything unless motivated by some influence outside himself.
Perhaps this should be stated more precisely. Man is unable to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ unless motivated by some influence outside himself.
That is the reason for the Gospel and the commandment to preach the Gospel to every creature (every human being). When the Gospel is preached, God the Holy Spirit uses the Gospel to convict and convince sinners, and then "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God". So ulitmately it is God who uses the Gospel to generate faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (provided the true Gospel is preached, not some watered down substitute).
Christians often fail to see that saving faith does not exist in a vacuum. God actively seeks and saves the lost through the preaching of the Gospel. And none are excluded, since "whosoever will" may freely take of the Water of Life. Scripture says that God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Believe it!
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 10/6/2008 2:50:48 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
Really, why would any of us choose to believe something? Peer pressure? Fear of punishment? Desire for an answer--any answer--to a big question? Dislike of the alternative?
"Desire for an answer" is correct. Man has been created with an inquiring mind and a hungry soul (whether we wish to admit it or not). Man is created to ask the big questions. And God provides all his answers through the Lord Jesus Christ.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 10/7/2008 11:30:51 AM
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abraxas
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Well that would explain the plethora of different answers to the same big questions. 
I do agree with you about man's inquisitiveness though. There's a book by Victor Frankl, can't recall the title, that introduces the idea of the "will to meaning". He placed it up there with the wills to power/sex, and I think he made a good case. Still, we're left with the plethora. So when someone makes that choice--to believe an answer, any answer, to the big questions--how do they justify their choice, if that was their basis? (Any answer is better than no answer!) That's what I was getting at.
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 10/8/2008 2:26:46 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
So when someone makes that choice--to believe an answer, any answer, to the big questions--how do they justify their choice, if that was their basis? (Any answer is better than no answer!) That's what I was getting at.
abraxas:
It is really quite easy to justify one's choice. If the Creator is also the Redeemer, and has given us an infallible record of His Son, then acceptance of that record is more than justifiable -- it is the only course of action for any thinking human being.
But there are other forces at work that hinder people from believing the truth. The Father of Lies is constantly working against humanity.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 10/9/2008 1:08:57 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
It is really quite easy to justify one's choice. If the Creator is also the Redeemer, and has given us an infallible record of His Son, then acceptance of that record is more than justifiable -- it is the only course of action for any thinking human being.
But there are other forces at work that hinder people from believing the truth. The Father of Lies is constantly working against humanity.
I don't think I have this right, Ezra, but do you think you chose to believe that the above opinions are true because any answer to the big questions is better than no answer at all?
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 10/9/2008 10:03:23 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1764
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
quote:
It is really quite easy to justify one's choice. If the Creator is also the Redeemer, and has given us an infallible record of His Son, then acceptance of that record is more than justifiable -- it is the only course of action for any thinking human being.
But there are other forces at work that hinder people from believing the truth. The Father of Lies is constantly working against humanity.
I don't think I have this right, Ezra, but do you think you chose to believe that the above opinions are true because any answer to the big questions is better than no answer at all?
Not *any* answer but *the most satisfactory answer*.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 10/9/2008 12:09:12 PM
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abraxas
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Not necessarily correct, but * the most satisfactory answer * ?
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 10/10/2008 9:14:34 AM
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rstrats
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re: “Can we choose to believe?”
Several folks have stated or implied in this topic that they CAN indeed consciously CHOOSE to believe things. I don’t think that it can be done. However, if it can, I would really like to know how. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person. So I wonder if someone who thinks that they can consciously CHOOSE to believe things might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, “OK, at this moment I believe that ‘x’ doesn't exist or isn't true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?
Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 10/10/2008 3:03:18 PM
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bob97
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Of course you can choose to believe...after the Spirit quickens you heart.
I think we all need a little help.
“Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.”
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 10/10/2008 6:41:22 PM
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rstrats
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bob97,
re: “Of course you can choose to believe...after the Spirit quickens you heart.”
What is the state of your mind with regard to a belief in a supreme being after the Spirit quickens your heart?
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 10/11/2008 7:55:09 AM
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nettiel
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 hi, and yes it is our choice to believe in god, ive lived 58 years and there is no way i wont believe in him hes brought me threw alot of things,and my family. there is a god and he loves us enough to let us make our own choices. nettie
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 10/12/2008 9:18:39 AM
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abraxas
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It's easy to see choice at work in the process of arriving at beliefs/opinions--we choose to read certain things, or not to, we choose to try things out, or not to, etc.
But for anyone who wants their beliefs/opinions to be accurate representatives of reality, it is illogical to say we chose our beliefs/opinions. It's putting the cart before the horse, since the only basis we can consciously be comfortable with for our beliefs is their perceived truthfulness.
In which case the "choice" has already been made, by our brains, and we were not consulted for that final decision. We all have a Holy of Holies in our head.
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 10/12/2008 10:18:13 AM
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bob97
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Wow abraxas...I think I agree with you...wait a minute, let me consult my brain. 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 10/12/2008 10:30:27 AM
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rstrats
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bob97,
You have a question directed to you in post #40.
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 10/12/2008 1:27:35 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1904
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quote:
What is the state of your mind with regard to a belief in a supreme being after the Spirit quickens your heart?
Guess I'm not sure what your wanting to know.
My instinctive answer to you question is that God’s Spirit has touched my spirit and has opened my spiritual eyes allowing me to begin to understand His calling.
It’s like two people in a crowed room…they see each other across that room and suddenly by some force they are drawn together and in many cases for life. Explain that.
No one can know a person's thoughts except that person's own spirit, and no one can know God's thoughts except God's own Spirit. 1Co 2:11
But people who aren't spiritual can't receive these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can't understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. 1Co 2:14
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 10/22/2008 1:11:03 AM
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theredhog
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quote:
But for anyone who wants their beliefs/opinions to be accurate representatives of reality, it is illogical to say we chose our beliefs/opinions. It's putting the cart before the horse, since the only basis we can consciously be comfortable with for our beliefs is their perceived truthfulness.
In which case the "choice" has already been made, by our brains, and we were not consulted for that final decision.
Yeah, either we believe it or we don't. Why would anyone say they don't believe something if they know it to be true or vice versa? But then.. the Bible says "if you hear His voice, harden not your heart" hum, maybe the question doesn't have such an easy answer after all...
Oh well, so much for my input.
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 10/22/2008 11:29:20 PM
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jakatx
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So can you have faith without belief?
I desperately want to believe, but I have struggled with believing for a long time. I'm putting my hope in the idea that faith happens as a result of choosing to believe. I often pray that God will help me to believe - but if I don't truly believe, are my prayers being heard? Can I just keep "choosing to believe" - having faith - and praying that God will strengthen my faith - and eventually I will believe?
Very confused! Thanks for any input.
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RE: Can we choose to believe? - 10/23/2008 7:45:13 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jakatx
So can you have faith without belief?
I desperately want to believe, but I have struggled with believing for a long time. I'm putting my hope in the idea that faith happens as a result of choosing to believe. I often pray that God will help me to believe - but if I don't truly believe, are my prayers being heard? Can I just keep "choosing to believe" - having faith - and praying that God will strengthen my faith - and eventually I will believe?
Very confused! Thanks for any input.
God is drawing you friend !
God will equip you and give you what you need.
Your old man/fleshly nature doesn't understand.
God will make you a new creature in Christ.
God has brought you to this moment, and you must
decide if you trust Him...He will give reason to.
God will lead, guide, direct, and protect you.
God is accomplishing His purpose in you.
There is no worries, no striving, no "trying".
God began the work, and God will complete it.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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