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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 10:44:15 AM
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doinkdom
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1 Cor 1:3-11 gives great assurance and comfort to anyone who has suffered and a hope of why it happened.
I have relied on these passages many times in remembering...
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 1:11:15 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace
This may have been done before but perhaps someone who believes a biblical marriage is a nonegalitarian marriage could describe what that would look like in reality. Many may say this is not the biblical model but it seems to work for us. It is totally NOT egalitarian.
I am the husband. I see it as my duty to lay down my life for my wife. I do anything and everything I can for her. I made enough $$ by working 55-60 hours per week to allow her to stay home with the chidren for as long as she liked. It was not until the youngest was in jr high that she wanted to work part time.
When she wanted to go back to school to get a full time job, I helped her as much as I could with her studies.
I make very few requests from her and accept very little that she offers.
My dad was one of those little tyrants that believed the bible taught that women were the slaves of their husbands. I just saw it as incredibly selfish.
I have tried to live my life in an unselfish way and I describe selfish as allowing anything that benefits me in any way. Sure, this is frustrating most of the time and painful some of the time. But I am more than willing to be frustrated and hurt if it benefits her.
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I hope this post is not considered a violation of my statement to vacate the previous conversation on feminism. If you consider it so - I will delete it.
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 1:17:25 PM
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GroupW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
I am the husband. I see it as my duty to lay down my life for my wife. I do anything and everything I can for her. I made enough $$ by working 55-60 hours per week to allow her to stay home with the chidren for as long as she liked. It was not until the youngest was in jr high that she wanted to work part time.
When she wanted to go back to school to get a full time job, I helped her as much as I could with her studies.
I make very few requests from her and accept very little that she offers.
I actually see this as an integral part of a good marriage egalitarian or not. It's just the definition of real love and I wish it were more in evidence everywhere. The fact that some people like you are able to put this into practice in their marriage is what keeps me unwilling to completely reject the more traditional models of marriage as a possibility.
I would call our marriage egalitarian, but I still shoot for this as an ideal. I fail miserably, but I still think it's part of the ideal.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 1:27:48 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I see you as a great guy, Dave. You do these things from a pure heart that has seen the other side of this. I really appreciate you, your opinion on this, and your responses to your wife. And yeah, here comes the but . . . .
But I can't live like that. When we were first married, my present husband (and I am not saying that this is like you!) wanted desparately to be a hero in my eyes. He wanted to do heroic things for me, especially when some of the things he wanted to do were dangerous and/or impulsive. I finally told him, "I don't want to be married to a dead hero! I have already lost one husband; that is enough!"
I finally learned why he wanted to be heroic to me, why he wanted to be so overly helpful and advisory, etc. And when I learned this, I recognized that I could either walk away from the marriage or stay in it and demand that he work on his issues. I chose the latter. Four times, the fourth with his knowledge that I had all the provisions to walk away.
Today, he is what he had portrayed himself to me to be before we married -- all of that and more. He has worked on his issues, done what I demanded in working on them, and he now no longer feels threatened by my old demands, because he is doing the right things. And at our 20th anniversary this year, I understood that he had turned that corner solidly and was walking the walk as he should not for me but because that is who he is.
All women can't live with that kind of a sacrificial man, and we each have our reasons. One of my reasons is that when I stand before G-d, I will stand alone; my husband will not be there to offer suggestions and help. Another reason is because I cannot live with a man I would constantly feel like I was martyring. Another -- three are sufficient here -- I am a strong woman with opinions and abilities, and he recognizes them, encouraging them.
Thank G-d for those men who live as sacrificially as you do, Dave. I am sure that your wife enjoys every benefit you bring to your marriage.
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 1:55:48 PM
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DaveW
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I do not know if she appreciates it or not, as she has had little to compare it to. I do know that she gets frustrated sometimes with my not allowing her to do stuff for me. I finally got her to completely forget my birthdays and that kind of stuff.
Where it benefits is it has given her a lot of room which she needs due to abuse issues from her childhood. I doubt many other men would have tolerated it.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 2:41:15 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
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quote:
I finally got her to completely forget my birthdays and that kind of stuff.
But if she really wants to commemorate those things, and make special days special, I think she should get to.....
I'm the kind of person that thinks birthdays, anniversaries, and holidays are very important, though.
I hope you guys still celebrate your anniversay.
_____________________________
"We basically use what I have seen referred to as "get off your butt" parenting. It employs more interaction, more redirection, more prevention, and usually less spanking."
-Mrs. Wifey
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 2:51:28 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
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Dave, I think that's commendable and I'm not commenting on how your marriage works because, well, your marriage works for you and that's the bottom line.
But,
I'm with Abiyah. I cannot imagine the frustration of wanting to do something for someone and not being able to. Accepting sacrifices is a gift to the sacrificer, too. IMHO.
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While I'm here I may as well say that I can't come to grips with anyone thinking they have to be responsible for me. That would freak me out. As would the idea that my husband was responsible for helping me with my spirituality. That'd be like being married to a psychiatrist. I'd be paranoid that everything I did would come under the spiritual microscope and I'd come up lacking 24/7.
Being mutually supportive, sure. But taking my spiritual temperature? ACK!
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
10.13.08
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 3:18:36 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
While I'm here I may as well say that I can't come to grips with anyone thinking they have to be responsible for me. That would freak me out. Well, the way I read Heb 13.17, the elders and pastors of the congregation have to give an account to God for every thing their congregants do.
Likewise Gen 18.13 could be taken to say the Lord will call a husband into account for the actions of his wife, even if he is unaware of them.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 3:27:12 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4259
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Likewise Gen 18.13 could be taken to say the Lord will call a husband into account for the actions of his wife, even if he is unaware of them.
I think maybe (just maybe) that this is about being responsible "to" your wife with regard to initiating devotions, bible discussions, prayer, etc. rather than "for" as in making the husband responsible for the actions of his wife - which I think is a wee bit of a stretch.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 3:56:14 PM
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tn1
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You know, it's more blessed to give than to receive. And yet, how can anyone give unless others are willing to receive. To receive takes humility recognizing the value in others. It also takes humility to be greatful. Marriage relationships are not meant to be parasitic with one just receiving and the other just giving; rather, in healthy marriages couples give and receive from each other freely, both serving, both giving, both being thankful, both honoring, loving, and respecting one another. If we are too prideful to recieve, then our pride also cuts others off from recieving from us.
Many years ago, the Lord strongly chastized me for being prideful. He gave me a vision of a body with its hand cut off. It was as if I was looking through the eyes of the body and the body's right hand. The right hand was severed from the arm at the wrist and was lying on the ground in a pool of blood twitching. From my right side, I saw a clear tube coming from over my head pumping blood into the hand; and the blood just squirted out of the hand onto the dirt making a progressively bigger mess.
The Lord spoke to me and said, "Your pride has cut you off from the Body of Christ!" My pride was broken and I wept like a child. I realized that recieving from others is just as important as giving. It takes humility to recieve. Pride keeps us from receiving and others from recieving from us.
In personal development we grow from Dependence (childhood), to Independence (adolescence), to Interdependence (adulthood). If we value and respect one another as we should, we will be interdependent recieving and giving freely.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 4:00:59 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4259
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tn1
Many years ago, the Lord strongly chastized me for being prideful. He gave me a vision of a body with its hand cut off. It was as if I was looking through the eyes of the body and the body's right hand. The right hand was severed from the arm at the wrist and was lying on the ground in a pool of blood twitching. From my right side, I saw a clear tube coming from over my head pumping blood into the hand; and the blood just squirted out of the hand onto the dirt making a progressively bigger mess.
dude 
God loves me too much to "give me" all that. 
Just thinking about it; whales, burning bushes and talking donkeys sound pretty tame.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 4:07:34 PM
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Kath
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Be careful of offering unwelcome counsel (TOS 9) When I read Dave's post I didn't see him asking if what he instructed (or taught) his wife was a good idea or not. I didn't word that well but I'm sure you know what I mean.
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"It's going to be bad around here when the cows come home to roost."
Dilbert's TRUE QUOTES FROM INDUHVIDUALS
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 4:08:06 PM
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stonek
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We both work fulltime and are both responsible for the home. Mutual submission is the way our marriage works.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 5:20:20 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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My husband and I put each other before ourselves as a general rule. God is first then the other spouse. However, at times it is necessary to put yourself first. For example, I am a pregnant momma with an 11 month old daughter. I work hard to take care of my family and manage my home. Sometimes I need a break. When I put this need first, I refresh myself and come back to my family stronger and better able to serve them. The same goes for my husband. He works for hard for our family and sometimes he needs to take time for himself. He comes back to us a better man, husband, and daddy. I don't see this as selfish if he sometimes puts his needs first. In fact, in the long run I believe it puts the family's needs first.
quote:
All women can't live with that kind of a sacrificial man, and we each have our reasons. One of my reasons is that when I stand before G-d, I will stand alone; my husband will not be there to offer suggestions and help. Another reason is because I cannot live with a man I would constantly feel like I was martyring. Another -- three are sufficient here -- I am a strong woman with opinions and abilities, and he recognizes them, encouraging them.
I have to agree with this completely. I wouldn't like feeling like my husband was a matyr. I would also always feel like I "owed" him something even if he wouldn't let me reciprocate, especially if he wouldn't let me reciprocate.
quote:
I have tried to live my life in an unselfish way and I describe selfish as allowing anything that benefits me in any way. Sure, this is frustrating most of the time and painful some of the time. But I am more than willing to be frustrated and hurt if it benefits her.
I don't want my husband to be frustrated most of the time. It would not benefit me to have my husband frustrated most of the time. I want him to be joyful in our marriage. Mutual submission, friendship, love, respect, and consideration gives us that joy.
I would also be very hurt and sad if my husband refused to accept my gifts of love and appreciation for things such as his birthday or just because he is an awesome man. I love showering him with affection and apprecition. It makes me really happy to do things that this for him.
I am so glad your marriage works for you Dave. I think it is wonderful. Only speaking for me, I would be miserable.
Karen
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/26/2008 1:37:32 AM
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Harvie
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What works for one couple, won't necessarily work for others.
When we got married in 2003, we both worked full-time. It was a first marriage for both of us and we were both in our mid-30s. We both had career that took years of education and training to achieve. Two years into our marriage, in 2005, my wonderful DH asked me to stop working and focus on "being a wife." He really felt that I deserved the chance to lead a much less-stressful life, and to pursue things that interested me (other than working so hard.) After much prayer and discussion, I agreed. I've been home ever since. Submitting to him on this was one of the hardest things I ever did, but it was also one of the best things that I ever did. Granted, going from two incomes down to one took a great deal of adjustment, but we made them -- knowing that we were following God's leading in this.
My wonderful DH doesn't like presents or gifts given at holidays/birthdays, so I don't get him gifts or presents for Valentine's Day, our anniversary, his birthday, etc. But he knows that I like to do nice things for him, and he is always gracious, considerate and appreciative when I surprise him with cards and little presents on "regular" days. (And he's a good sport about all the care packages and cards I send him in Iraq since he knows that I get joy out of caring for him.) It works for us. The most important thing is that he communicates his wishes and desires to me, and I do my best to follow them. And, in turn, I communicate my wishes and desires to him, and he strives to follow them.
Communication.
Unconditional Love.
Compromise.
Cooperation.
Christ.
That's what makes marriages work.
_____________________________
 PRAISE THE LORD -- MY HUSBAND IS BACK FROM IRAQ
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/26/2008 6:40:56 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4073
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdomquote:
Likewise Gen 18.13 could be taken to say the Lord will call a husband into account for the actions of his wife, even if he is unaware of them. I think maybe (just maybe) that this is about being responsible "to" your wife with regard to initiating devotions, bible discussions, prayer, etc. rather than "for" as in making the husband responsible for the actions of his wife - which I think is a wee bit of a stretch. Look at the text:
Gen 18:9 Then they said to him, "Where is Sarah your wife?" And he said, "There, in the tent."
Gen 18:10 He said, "I will surely return to you at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son." And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him.
Gen 18:11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing.
Gen 18:12 Sarah laughed to herself, saying, "After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?"
Gen 18:13 And the LORD said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?'
Gen 18:14 "Is anything too difficult for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son."
Gen 18:15 Sarah denied it however, saying, "I did not laugh"; for she was afraid. And He said, "No, but you did laugh."
Picture situation. Sarah is in the tent preparing food, near the door of the tent. The three angels are standing in front of the tent facing away from it and Abraham is in front of them facing them and the tent. The LORD makes a promise and Sarah who is behind him laughs at it. Abraham is far enough away from the tent to not hear the laugh.
Who does the Lord call into account? Not Sarah, but Abraham. She does not get addressed until she comes out of the tent and lies about it.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/26/2008 9:41:48 AM
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SurpassingPeace
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So are you saying that I will not be accountable to God for my actions but my husband will? To me that puts me as not an equal in Christ but in a childlike place under my husband. It is how I am responsible for my young daughter.
I guess you could extrapolate husband responsibility from that passage but I think you would have to be looking for that view in the first place. To me, it is quite a stretch to say it definatively establishes husband responsibility and it would have to be definative before I would consider changing my view.
Karen
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/26/2008 10:40:54 AM
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Tinkerbell_
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I understand it as, it's not that you won't be accountable for your own actions, but that your husband will be held accountable as well. Just as the two of you will be held accountable for your children.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/26/2008 10:52:25 AM
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GroupW
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This is where the wheels fall off the wagon for me. If I'm to be held accountable for my wife, then I would want some form of authority or control over my wife. To be held accountable for something that's outside your control isn't a very healthy dynamic. I think this is the crack through which some people slip into abuse.
Accountable for how I treat my wife? Absolutely. Accountable for the actions of my wife? I can't quite get there.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/26/2008 10:59:09 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4259
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdomquote:
Likewise Gen 18.13 could be taken to say the Lord will call a husband into account for the actions of his wife, even if he is unaware of them. I think maybe (just maybe) that this is about being responsible "to" your wife with regard to initiating devotions, bible discussions, prayer, etc. rather than "for" as in making the husband responsible for the actions of his wife - which I think is a wee bit of a stretch. Look at the text:
Gen 18:9 Then they said to him, "Where is Sarah your wife?" And he said, "There, in the tent."
Gen 18:10 He said, "I will surely return to you at this time next year; and behold, Sarah your wife will have a son." And Sarah was listening at the tent door, which was behind him.
Gen 18:11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in age; Sarah was past childbearing.
Gen 18:12 Sarah laughed to herself, saying, "After I have become old, shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?"
Gen 18:13 And the LORD said to Abraham, "Why did Sarah laugh, saying, 'Shall I indeed bear a child, when I am so old?'
Gen 18:14 "Is anything too difficult for the LORD? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah will have a son."
Gen 18:15 Sarah denied it however, saying, "I did not laugh"; for she was afraid. And He said, "No, but you did laugh."
Picture situation. Sarah is in the tent preparing food, near the door of the tent. The three angels are standing in front of the tent facing away from it and Abraham is in front of them facing them and the tent. The LORD makes a promise and Sarah who is behind him laughs at it. Abraham is far enough away from the tent to not hear the laugh.
Who does the Lord call into account? Not Sarah, but Abraham. She does not get addressed until she comes out of the tent and lies about it.
I still think it's more about Abraham's spiritual leadership than holding him accountable for Sara's actions.
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/26/2008 12:21:44 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4073
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
This is where the wheels fall off the wagon for me. If I'm to be held accountable for my wife, then I would want some form of authority or control over my wife. To be held accountable for something that's outside your control isn't a very healthy dynamic. And according to Hebrews 13 your congregational leaders are held in account for YOUR actions. How much authority or control do they hold over you?
Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.
It is the same dynamic.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Men's/Women's roles in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/26/2008 12:51:48 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
This is where the wheels fall off the wagon for me. If I'm to be held accountable for my wife, then I would want some form of authority or control over my wife. To be held accountable for something that's outside your control isn't a very healthy dynamic. And according to Hebrews 13 your congregational leaders are held in account for YOUR actions. How much authority or control do they hold over you?
Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.
It is the same dynamic.
Not entirely. Are they giving an account for THEIR actions or MINE. I think the proper interpretation here is that they will be held accountable for their actions as leaders. Given that, I owe them an obligation and a duty of obedience. It's not that they are responsible for me directly. It's indirect via their obligations as leaders.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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