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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/15/2008 9:18:41 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Of course, these people have the problem of what to do with the gold being woven into the garment of the Cohen Ha Godal(High Priest). Uhh, that's the least of their problems according to Matt 23:13-33. 
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/16/2008 6:34:30 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
However, to presume your interpretation of Acts 15 precludes any discussion of this topic by those who hold a different interpretation is, in my opinion, a bit presumptious. As I said, it is the topic for another thread.
< Message edited by DaveW -- 9/16/2008 11:22:46 AM >
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/16/2008 1:24:44 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Of course, these people have the problem of what to do with the gold being woven into the garment of the Cohen Ha Godal(High Priest). Uhh, that's the least of their problems according to Matt 23:13-33.
Nowhere in the passage you sight is the issue of blended garments addressed specifically. The point of that passage is made clear by Yeshua in verse 13.
Matt 23:13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
How is interpreting the Scriptures regarding how one should live shutting "the kingdom of heaven in men's faces." If that is the case, advising people to be baptised, not steal, or love their wives would also be shutting "the kingdom of heaven in men's faces". That would be true if one bases salvation on such things, but before the reference to Mt 23 no one said anything about salvation.
Why is it presumed that those who study Ha Torah are requiring others to keep the commandments for salvation? Most Torah observant people I know don't require other to do anything, but merely express their interpretation of the Scriptures when asked. Let's try to stay on topic and not be presumptious.
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/17/2008 12:38:39 AM
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ae10u
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Can anyone think of why God would have a problem with a garment of mixed natural fibres such as wool and linen?
Deuteronomy 22:11 Thou shalt not wear a garment of divers sorts, as of woollen and linen together.
It is not as if the different fibres are going to interbreed.
Would it produce static? Would it make one sweat more? Would that be a problem big enough that God has to outlaw it?
Would wearing a cotton T shirt and a woolen jersey over this amount to wearing a banned mixture?
I am thinking along the lines that there must be some health risk to the above. Suppose that wool and linen both have different static properties - meaning that one rubs electrons off onto the other creating areas of charge. Could this minute electrostatic field disrupt the nerve pathways - which also work on tiny electric fields? That's my best shot. Any ideas?
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/17/2008 7:23:06 AM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ae10u
I am thinking along the lines that there must be some health risk to the above. Suppose that wool and linen both have different static properties - meaning that one rubs electrons off onto the other creating areas of charge. Could this minute electrostatic field disrupt the nerve pathways - which also work on tiny electric fields? That's my best shot. Any ideas?
There is no suggestion in the Bible that dietary restrictions and weaving prohibitions of garments presented any kind of detriment to health. That is completely speculative.
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Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/17/2008 8:55:17 AM
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drmark
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quote:
There is no suggestion in the Bible that dietary restrictions and weaving prohibitions of garments presented any kind of detriment to health. That is completely speculative. I think you meant "presented any kind of possible improvement to health". Actually, there are some theoretical health benefits which may have accrued to the ancient Israelites from strict adherence to "Kosher" dietary guidelines. But obviously, the primary reason for obeying God is because He says so!
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/17/2008 12:11:52 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
There is no suggestion in the Bible that dietary restrictions and weaving prohibitions of garments presented any kind of detriment to health. That is completely speculative. I think you meant "presented any kind of possible improvement to health". Actually, there are some theoretical health benefits which may have accrued to the ancient Israelites from strict adherence to "Kosher" dietary guidelines. But obviously, the primary reason for obeying God is because He says so!
That is correct. What "health risk" is detered by baptism or communion?
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/17/2008 12:22:36 PM
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drmark
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I don't follow your logic here, Bluethread. Are you placing these universal Christian sacraments on the same spiritual plane as Levitical Law, even for Messianic Jews?
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/17/2008 12:32:06 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I don't follow your logic here, Bluethread. Are you placing these universal Christian sacraments on the same spiritual plane as Levitical Law, even for Messianic Jews?
Both of these "universal Christian sacraments" are derived from Levitical Law. The Mikvah(baptism) and Pesach(The Last Supper) were observed of centuries before the incarnation. To stay on topic, even if one does not accept this view, the idea of justifying the dictates of Scripture, whether it be the Tanach(old testiment) or the Apistolic Writings(new testiment), entirely on scientifically verifiable health benefits is to makes science the basis of ones beliefs and not the Scriptures.
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/17/2008 12:40:59 PM
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drmark
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I have no disagreement with your last sentence!
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/17/2008 5:57:44 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
There is no suggestion in the Bible that dietary restrictions and weaving prohibitions of garments presented any kind of detriment to health. That is completely speculative. I think you meant "presented any kind of possible improvement to health". Actually, there are some theoretical health benefits which may have accrued to the ancient Israelites from strict adherence to "Kosher" dietary guidelines. But obviously, the primary reason for obeying God is because He says so!
Ok. But He doesn't say so now.
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/17/2008 6:24:07 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
There is no suggestion in the Bible that dietary restrictions and weaving prohibitions of garments presented any kind of detriment to health. That is completely speculative. I think you meant "presented any kind of possible improvement to health". Actually, there are some theoretical health benefits which may have accrued to the ancient Israelites from strict adherence to "Kosher" dietary guidelines. But obviously, the primary reason for obeying God is because He says so!
Ok. But He doesn't say so now.
It would be more useful to know what you think the verse does mean, then what you think it doesn't mean.
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/17/2008 11:07:56 PM
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drmark
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quote:
quote:
But obviously, the primary reason for obeying God is because He says so! Ok. But He doesn't say so now. It seems that 1 John 5:3 states otherwise.
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/19/2008 4:04:37 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
It would be more useful to know what you think the verse does mean, then what you think it doesn't mean.
Are you trying to bait me into making up something?
I'm not sure where I'm supposed to get that information. The OT tells which foods were clean and unclean but it doesn't tell us why. It never tells us that we will have greater health benefits for avoiding mixing linen and wool or plowing with an ox and burro together.
Any-fill-in-the-gaps answer to your question would be as equally speculative as "ae10u's" suggestion that linen and wool would be detrimental to one's health because of electrostatic effects to the human body. (See post #29)
Bluetread,
If someone makes up something and you ignore it because it basically supports your view, why don't you take him to task rather than me? I simply pointed out that the Bible is silent regarding detrimental health risks of mixing unlike threads into garments.
Isn't the Bible silent regarding its purpose other than simply keeping the commandment of God?
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/19/2008 4:28:33 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
quote:
But obviously, the primary reason for obeying God is because He says so! Ok. But He doesn't say so now. It seems that 1 John 5:3 states otherwise.
I'm happy to respond.
See my answer in "Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread" post 4459 so as to keep the CW Terms of Service and instructions of the moderator.
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/19/2008 4:56:13 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
It would be more useful to know what you think the verse does mean, then what you think it doesn't mean.
Are you trying to bait me into making up something?
I'm not sure where I'm supposed to get that information. The OT tells which foods were clean and unclean but it doesn't tell us why. It never tells us that we will have greater health benefits for avoiding mixing linen and wool or plowing with an ox and burro together.
Any-fill-in-the-gaps answer to your question would be as equally speculative as "ae10u's" suggestion that linen and wool would be detrimental to one's health because of electrostatic effects to the human body. (See post #29)
Bluetread,
If someone makes up something and you ignore it because it basically supports your view, why don't you take him to task rather than me? I simply pointed out that the Bible is silent regarding detrimental health risks of mixing unlike threads into garments.
Isn't the Bible silent regarding its purpose other than simply keeping the commandment of God?
As you pointed out, I made the point that the Scriptures do not always give justifications and that idea was repeated in the current exchange.
The difference is that I did not imply it said anything else or the passage was not what Adonai was saying now. Is Lev 19 to be ignored or does it have a different meaning than it did before?
If all you were doing is pointing out that this verse does not give the reason, I'm sorry to have bothered you. However, if you are attempting to interject some opinion regarding this verse, say what you mean.
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/19/2008 5:45:46 PM
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GrahamCracker
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
As you pointed out, I made the point that the Scriptures do not always give justifications and that idea was repeated in the current exchange.
The difference is that I did not imply it said anything else or the passage was not what Adonai was saying now. Is Lev 19 to be ignored or does it have a different meaning than it did before?
The point of the the other poster is that there might be some health reasons for the command to not mix wool and linen. I suppose that might lead one to conclude that any health benefits which were applicable then are still applicable now. That's where I think his argument might lead.
The fact that there is virtual silence on potential health benefits makes kosher laws of the OT irrelevant.
quote:
If all you were doing is pointing out that this verse does not give the reason, I'm sorry to have bothered you. However, if you are attempting to interject some opinion regarding this verse, say what you mean.
As to whether or not Lev. 19 is to be ignored or have a different meaning does not address the essential point I addressed. Without going into too much detail, the passage means what it means, but IMHO it does not apply any longer.
I certainly don't ignore it, but I don't practice its prohibitions because the same God who put them into effect can likewise release us from them.
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/19/2008 6:02:41 PM
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drmark
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quote:
See my answer in "Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread" post 4459 so as to keep the CW Terms of Service and instructions of the moderator. Okay, Larry, thanks for the clarification. Apparently I misread the syntax of your response as applying to why we should obey God and you actually meant it to refer to the specific Levitical command. However, I do not find the context of 1 John 5: 2-3 indicating the restrictions on "commands" to be as clear-cut as you do. No problem - neither of us is subject to weak conscience as described in 1 Cor chapter 8 anyway.
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/19/2008 6:17:41 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
The point of the the other poster is that there might be some health reasons for the command to not mix wool and linen. I suppose that might lead one to conclude that any health benefits which were applicable then are still applicable now. That's where I think his argument might lead.
The fact that there is virtual silence on potential health benefits makes kosher laws of the OT irrelevant.
Thank you for making your point. It is difficult to determine where one thinks an argument may go, if one does not make the connection.
Your point highlights a serious draw back to the scientific or health benefit arguements. They subject our interpretation of Scripture to the scientific/health theories of the day. These theories may add some credence, but they are not best evidence when interpreting Scripture.
By the same token, saying that certain things in the Scriptures are irrelavant because they can't be proven scientifically beneficial or healthy also subjects ones interpretation to the same scientific/health theories.
Regarding the arguments related to Adonai possibly revoking the laws regarding food, I believe their discussion here would be appropriate as long as they are made in the context of sowing two kinds of plants in the same field.
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/19/2008 6:32:22 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Regarding the arguments related to Adonai possibly revoking the laws regarding food, I believe their discussion here would be appropriate as long as they are made in the context of sowing two kinds of plants in the same field. I've yet to see anyone present Scripture that prohibits eating these kinds of foods! The prohibition is against producing them. What does Lev 19 have to do with dietary laws?
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/19/2008 7:14:56 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Regarding the arguments related to Adonai possibly revoking the laws regarding food, I believe their discussion here would be appropriate as long as they are made in the context of sowing two kinds of plants in the same field. I've yet to see anyone present Scripture that prohibits eating these kinds of foods! The prohibition is against producing them. What does Lev 19 have to do with dietary laws?
True, deriving a prohibiton against eating hydrid foods from Lev. 19 is rabbinic(doctrinal). What do you believe Adonai is telling us when He commands us not to mix these different kinds of things, interbreeding, planting, blended cloth?
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/19/2008 7:29:20 PM
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drmark
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quote:
What do you believe Adonai is telling us when He commands us not to mix these different kinds of things, interbreeding, planting, blended cloth? Uh well, I thought my response to Larry in post #43 made it clear that I am not subject to a weak conscience. So I would simply say I am not part of your "us". Do you believe God is telling us to speak to rocks instead of striking them as commanded in Num 20:8-12?
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/19/2008 7:59:13 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
What do you believe Adonai is telling us when He commands us not to mix these different kinds of things, interbreeding, planting, blended cloth? Uh well, I thought my response to Larry in post #43 made it clear that I am not subject to a weak conscience. So I would simply say I am not part of your "us". Do you believe God is telling us to speak to rocks instead of striking them as commanded in Num 20:8-12?
Emphasis Mine
I'm not sure which us you are refering to. I prosume it's the second one. I don't have a 'weak conscience" as Paul speaks of it, so I don't have a problem buying vegtables at a hindu product market. However, with regard to this passage, what do you believe Adonai is saying to us, in general?
If Adonai tells me to speak to a rock, I better speak to it.
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/19/2008 8:13:18 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I don't have a 'weak conscience" as Paul speaks of it, so I don't have a problem buying vegtables at a hindu product market. And what does this have to do with Levitical Law?
quote:
However, with regard to this passage, what do you believe Adonai is saying to us, in general? That God does not tolerate a selfish and hot-headed attitude in His servants when enabling them to perform miracles.
quote:
If Adonai tells me to speak to a rock, I better speak to it. Precisely my point, Bluethread! If God tells me to not wear cotton/poly blend shirts, then I better clean out my closet! Until then, I'm really not too excited about Lev 19.
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RE: Leviticus 19 : foods made from interbreeding - 9/19/2008 8:34:45 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I don't have a "weak conscience" as Paul speaks of it, so I don't have a problem buying vegtables at a hindu product market. And what does this have to do with Levitical Law?
Precisely my point. Paul was talking about those who have a problem with food offered to idols, specifically meats that were considered rabbinically unclean for that reason. There is nothing in Ha Torah regarding abstaining from such meat.
quote:
quote:
However, with regard to this passage, what do you believe Adonai is saying to us, in general? That God does not tolerate a selfish and hot-headed attitude in His servants when enabling them to perform miracles.
I don't follow. The passage in this thread is the portion of Lev. 19 related to items presumably related to hybridization. Which specific verses are you refering to and how do you come toyour interpretation?
quote:
quote:
If Adonai tells me to speak to a rock, I better speak to it. Precisely my point, Bluethread! If God tells me to not wear cotton/poly blend shirts, then I better clean out my closet! Until then, I'm really not too excited about Lev 19.
Then why are you posting on this thread? You appear to be getting rather excited at the moment.
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