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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/11/2008 10:57:11 AM
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relady
Posts: 1279
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quote:
How can one develop the mathematical models describing the first billionth of the first second of the big bang while at the same time believe the literal story of Genesis? Well, I believe that God is the one behind that first second of the big bang and that ultimately he was also the designer of our creation. Where I part ways with my more literal brethern is that I believe that the big bang, evolution and all the other scientific proof of our creation are the tools that God used. I don't believe he just wiggled his nose, snapped his fingers or what have you and created everything in its current form. Even my rudimentary understanding of science and geology prevent me from accepting that. And I'm no scientist.
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/11/2008 12:49:29 PM
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raivyne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AboundinginHisGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: tcasboy
I know with absolute certainty that the events of the OT did not occur literally as described. I know with absolute certainty the earth is billions of year old, the universe is many more billions of years old, the biblical flood did not occur as described, the first homo sapiens were not Adam and Eve, that dinosaurs existed on the order of 80-200 million years ago.
"Absolute certainty" that statement made me laugh out loud. Ok lets get on your line of thinking, lets think about this scientifically. For you to know with absolute certainty you would have to have 100% knowledge,which you do not. Ok just to be generous lets say you have 1% of the knowledge of the universe, that still leaves 99% of it that you do not know. So do you think there could be something in that 99% that you do not know that could prove God's existence. There is a reason things are called theorys. Even Darwin couldn't explain the human eye, He said "'To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree."
I believe Darwin himself said that his theories didn't disprove the existance of God, if anything they helped prove there was a God. At least that's what my Biology professor told us he said LOL
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/11/2008 2:28:38 PM
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sudden
Posts: 164
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From: Toronto
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Hi Refiner's
How's it going?
You said:
quote:
ORIGINAL: RefinersMetal
Einstein said that the Bible is a "collection of honourable, but still primitive legends."
May I please know your source? It is a book I'd be interested in reading.
Thanks in advance,
Sudden
_____________________________
I will lie down in rest and sleep and peace, for thou, O Lord, only makest me to dwell in safety.
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/11/2008 2:41:01 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1497
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quote:
I believe Darwin himself said that his theories didn't disprove the existance of God, if anything they helped prove there was a God. At least that's what my Biology professor told us he said LOL
I think that's more legend, and not necessarily proven.
Not trying to be a jerk here, but there's just a LOT of stuff that is attributed to Darwin that he never said, or was actually said by someone else.
< Message edited by TorchHeart -- 9/11/2008 3:06:08 PM >
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/11/2008 2:56:27 PM
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TorchHeart
Posts: 1497
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quote:
He said "'To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree
Let's continue on with that quote from Charles Darwin, shall we?
"Yet reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a perfect and complex eye to one very imperfect and simple, each grade being useful to its possessor, can be shown to exist; if further, the eye does vary ever so slightly, and the variations be inherited, which is certainly the case; and if any variation or modification in the organ be ever useful to an animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, can hardly be considered real. How a nerve comes to be sensitive to light, hardly concerns us more than how life itself first originated; but I may remark that several facts make me suspect that any sensitive nerve may be rendered sensitive to light, and likewise to those coarser vibrations of the air which produce sound."
(Darwin 1872, 143-144)
Darwin continues with three more pages describing a sequence of plausible intermediate stages between eyelessness and human eyes, giving examples from existing organisms to show that the intermediates are viable.
So he did successfully explain the creation of the human eye.
My source for this, by the way, is the Talk Origins website, which provides a wealth of information for both sides of this argument.
< Message edited by TorchHeart -- 9/11/2008 3:04:37 PM >
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/11/2008 5:16:58 PM
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beachcooky
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
I wouldn't try to explain anything to Einstein. He's dead. Jesus is not. Coincidence? I don't think so.
HAHA, definitely.
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/11/2008 5:45:52 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
Because the foundation for physics, (and all natural sciences) is based on a set of natural laws. To invalidate one any one of these laws invalidates all the science that has built upon it.
Yes, and mortal man made those laws to explain what he was doing.
Man, who declares himself the descendents of apes. Now that really takes faith!
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/11/2008 6:02:07 PM
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OneJohn410
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I must have missed that speech about the #1 best-selling book of all time, being the most widely translated and distributed book known.
Since he asked me to explain something to him, why, I'd be flattered. I'd begin by explaining to him that miracles are the result of a loving creator God, who spoke the universe into being, that a miracle is God's interaction into His creation's everyday life. That God is not bound by any such restrictions placed on what He made, and therefore it's not proof that the sun stood still or any number of the rest of the miracles, but is faith and the authority of His Word that is where it's at- pointing at the Bible that Edison is holding in his hands at that moment, before he puts it down.
One doesn't explain miracles as in see, this is what enabled God to accomplish them. The event is miraculous to mankind, yet to God, who allowed the event to take place in the midst of His own creation, well, what do the angels say? Oooohhh, He just threw them another #746?
Einstein comments in the 'negative' about the Bible, yet in the positive about the church. Very interesting. Where did you read that?
OneJohn410
quote:
RefinersMetal:
Einstein said that the Bible is a "collection of honourable, but still primitive legends."
How would you try to explain to him OT miracles and what do you think about this comment?
Thanks.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LCannon
quote:
The events of the OT, if they occurred, invalidate natural law.
In the immortal words of 'Ghostbusters', 'Who ya' want to believe?' limited speculation that tries to 'validate natural law' or the mystery of[His]Revelation that '...proved [Jesus]had a valid claim [to His Deity]...“(John 1:11)
It's interesting how man's limited speculation, Bigfoot or 'life' on Mars for example, is alive and kicking precisely because there's no evidence to the contrary.
"Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks…Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly."
- Albert Einstein, Time magazine, 23rd December, 1940
quote:
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and shield. I trust Him with all my heart. He helps me, and my heart is filled with joy. I burst out in songs of thanksgiving. Psalm 28:7
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/11/2008 6:09:38 PM
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Lufia
Posts: 187
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The quotation about the Bible was in a letter from Einstein. It was sold i think for about 300,000 dollars.
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Give your life to Jesus and enjoy the ride!
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/12/2008 12:03:34 AM
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relady
Posts: 1279
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From: Greater St. Louis Metro
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quote:
Yes, and mortal man made those laws to explain what he was doing. I believe that I disagree with this - I believe God made the natural/physical laws of the world. Man has simply named them as he has discovered them.
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/12/2008 1:41:44 AM
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OneJohn410
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Thanks for your help to Refinersmetal, but a private letter from Einstein to someone is typically not published in a scientific journal of findings and learned knowledge. I'm actually looking for an answer from the author of the OP.
OneJohn410
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lufia
The quotation about the Bible was in a letter from Einstein. It was sold i think for about 300,000 dollars.
< Message edited by OneJohn410 -- 9/12/2008 1:49:09 AM >
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and shield. I trust Him with all my heart. He helps me, and my heart is filled with joy. I burst out in songs of thanksgiving. Psalm 28:7
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/12/2008 2:48:39 AM
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RefinersMetal
Posts: 34
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From: JAX FL
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TCASBOY - Are you a Christian?
I am a Christian and am very versed in New Testament apologetics. However, when it comes to the old testament, etc..... I have
a hard time defending it, etc....
Anything that could help? Thanks.
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/12/2008 2:58:01 AM
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_sharon
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^ I agree about the old testament. I don't try to defend. There's some horrible stuff in there. IMO, the new testament is Jesus' word. It's the part of the Bible that is more important to Christians. I look at it as the old testament is the Jewish influence on Christianity and the new testament is what makes Christianity different to Judaism. I'm not Jewish, therefore I don't need to really concern myself with the old testament. The new testament is what I try to live by. As a Christian I don't feel the need to defend the old testament.
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/12/2008 3:34:57 AM
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RefinersMetal
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From: JAX FL
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The prophecys in the OT are very important though imo.
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/12/2008 5:01:29 AM
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RefinersMetal
Posts: 34
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From: JAX FL
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TCASBOY how do you explain the scientific evidence behind finding the Walls of Jericho, etc verifying the OT?
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/12/2008 8:34:18 AM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RefinersMetal
TCASBOY how do you explain the scientific evidence behind finding the Walls of Jericho, etc verifying the OT?
Yeah, through archeology they have proven numerous amounts of old testament events. Non christian archeologist and historians questioned even the existance of the ancient city of jericho much less the miracle that occured there, but they found the ancient city of Jericho with the walls fallen in not out. Also everyone died there, all the food was still in their homes with all of their items. They said an earthquake could not have caused this 1st off because of the way the walls fell 2nd no one survived and everything was still laying where it had and was untouched. So there is one mircle confirmed, not by christians but normal archeologist . Also when the kid found the dead sea scrolls, the athiest/liberals thought they had finally been able to disprove the bible and its inerrentcy, but it only proved it, its contents are the same as the bibles we have today (of course in a different language) but nothing doctrally had changed at all. To be exact the only diffences were 1/10,000th of a difference and those were nothing but minor punctuations.
_____________________________
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/12/2008 5:46:23 PM
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RefinersMetal
Posts: 34
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From: JAX FL
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Yea I think they found a complete book of Isaiah in there, awesome.
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/12/2008 6:05:47 PM
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graceingod1
Posts: 15
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einstein = great mind
einstein = poor faith
we are blessed to have his scientific contributions, and hope that he is forgiven of his sins.
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/13/2008 8:18:30 AM
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sudden
Posts: 164
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Toronto
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Dear Lufia:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lufia
The quotation about the Bible was in a letter from Einstein. It was sold i think for about 300,000 dollars.
That is something isn't it? $300,000. Tell me to whom was he writing? How was the letter sold and to whom? I am interested in who would think a letter from Einstein to be that valuable.
An aside comment: I am surprised that the folks who might have thought Einstein would be a Christian. I just always thought Einstein was a Jewish name.
Sudden
_____________________________
I will lie down in rest and sleep and peace, for thou, O Lord, only makest me to dwell in safety.
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/13/2008 10:15:38 AM
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Lufia
Posts: 187
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From: Canada, quebec province
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Einstein wrote the letter in 1954 to philosopher Eric Gutkind. It was sold for 330,000$.
In that letter he wrotes: " the word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish"
Einstein was jewish but rejected the notion that Jews were chosen by God
"For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions"
_____________________________
Give your life to Jesus and enjoy the ride!
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/13/2008 12:41:33 PM
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OneJohn410
Posts: 1177
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Hmmm....
an Einstein quote from LCannon:
quote:
"Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks…Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly."
and none from Refinersmetal,
and more specifics on this letter R mentions in the OP from Lufia:
quote:
Einstein wrote the letter in 1954 to philosopher Eric Gutkind. It was sold for 330,000$.
In that letter he wrotes: " the word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish"
Einstein was jewish but rejected the notion that Jews were chosen by God
"For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions"
So Einstein apparently went from unreserved praise for the church to describing the Bible as pretty childish- even declaring his family's religious upbringing of the most childish superstitions."
quote:
OP topic: How would you try to explain to him OT miracles and what do you think about this comment?
I already played the hypothetical game of being able to travel back in time and talk to him. Some have opted not to do this. I was really looking to hear that this was something Einstein intended to have published to all the scientific community as his personal 'beliefs' (contradiction in term?) about the world's religion at the time. Something that was more than a letter between friends, and not easily verifiable.
What is needed is someone as wishy-washy (all I've got to go on are these two quotes at the moment) about religious faith in the world as Einstein appears to have been, in today's world. Then the only thing missing is to be around when she or he would be open to listening, and be ready to share with them at that point. That in great part is the challenge of the missionary, a lot more so than the average citizen I.M. Cardholder, but I.M. should be ready to explain things too.
Why did you choose Old Testament miracles as the thing to try to explain? That's a great subject, by the way, that beckons to have the scientific method applied to what must be old earth. Why not try to explain something that even I.M. Scientist can't touch with all their knowledge, like God's love for her or him? Wouldn't that be more intriguing?
OneJohn410
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and shield. I trust Him with all my heart. He helps me, and my heart is filled with joy. I burst out in songs of thanksgiving. Psalm 28:7
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/17/2008 9:16:43 PM
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SpiritualPowers
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I hope he had time to rebuke that statment and i can only hope he found or God and found salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: Einstein putting down the Bible - 9/28/2008 9:58:07 PM
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lightbeamrider
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The latest bio on Einstein has a chapter called Einstein's God. Talking about the Walter Isaacson bio. It makes for interesting reading. Einstein said that if he were christian he would probably be a Quaker because of his pacifist tendencies. Since Einstein was a determinist he would have more likely been a way out Calvinist. Einstein did not believe in free will. Here are some Einstein quotes from the book.
Q. You accept the historical existence of Jesus? ''Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personalty pulsates every word. No myth is filled with such life.'' p. 386
''I'm not an atheist''....''There are people who say there is no God, But what makes me really angry is they quote me to support their views.''
''Einstein never felt an urge to denigrate those who believe in God; instead, he tended to denigrate atheists.''....''What separates me from most so called atheists is a feeling of utter humility toward the unattainable secrets of the cosmos.''
''They (atheists) are creatures who--in the grudge against traditional religion as the 'opium of the masses--cannot hear the music of the spheres.''
''Einstein, on the other hand, believed as did Spinoza, that a person's actions were just as determined as that of a billiard ball, planet or star.''
''Human beings in their thinking feelings and actions are not free but are as causally bound as the stars in their motions.''...''I am a determinist. Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect as well as for the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distant by an invisible player.''
''I know philosophically a murderer is not responsible for his crime, but I prefer to not take tea with him.''
''Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and this holds true for the actions of people.''
As stated above Einstein was a was probably into Deism who believed in a Impersonal God who did not answer prayer etc.
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