Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (Full Version)

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Homegrownkids -> Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/8/2008 9:57:47 AM)

This is sort of a spin-off from another thread. It got me wondering where people stand on this. Should Christians be on WIC, State funding daycare assistance, medicaid, food stamps, heat assistance, if there are government funds for education (I don't know much about this, if it exists). Medicare, elderly programs....I'm sure the list goes on.

In the other thread, it was stated that the occasional help would be okay, (refering to families with children), but any long term help isn't fair to those that are being self reliant. There are so many programs out there, even disability and social security. Should Christians depend on these programs? Should we be using them?

This thread isn't meant for just families, it is for any age of person. People with children, singles, married couples and elderly.



NoShow -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/8/2008 10:05:47 AM)

I'd say it comes down to individual intend.



BlueAdept -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/8/2008 10:16:58 AM)

Well that is a truly loaded question.

Here is my take on it, and at least part of my answer.

Yes and no. Christians should be willing to accept this assistance if needed. They should not need it however. The local church should be providing for those needs when the need is there. However, because the church is unable to meet that need; some entity must step in and assume the responsibility.

So the better question is not "Should Christians...." but "When will the church step up and live up to the charge it was given, about caring for the widows and orphans?"



karlie -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/8/2008 4:41:08 PM)

I think anyone can fall on hard times and I see nothing wrong with accepting government assistance temporarily. After all, most of us pay into it year after year and that's what it's there for.

However, I think it's irresponsible to stay on it long term and to rely on that to take care of one's family. Many I know who have taken the help seem to think that's their cue to sit back and not work so hard at getting a new job, taking charge again of their life, etc. That's just wrong, in my opinion. People(not just Christians) should accept as little as they can get by, for as short of a time as possible, and they need to be putting in every possible effort to become completely self-supporting again as soon as possible.



ofa23 -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/8/2008 6:20:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: karlie

I think anyone can fall on hard times and I see nothing wrong with accepting government assistance temporarily. After all, most of us pay into it year after year and that's what it's there for.




Yep, I agree. My kids are on our state's medical insurance for children and I am glad we have had access to it. As soon as I get a full time job, I will add them to my insurance from work and drop them from the states.



macokjc -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/8/2008 7:36:17 PM)

quote:

So the better question is not "Should Christians...." but "When will the church step up and live up to the charge it was given, about caring for the widows and orphans?"


But that's not all we are talking about. We are talking about families who for various reasons have child after child with no means of support. We are talking about Christians living off of welfare when parents refuse to get jobs. We are talking about people who make poor financial decisions, and then expect the government to provide for their needs.

I would gladly see a single mom who's trying to pull herself up and make a better life for her and her family receive help. It annoys me when the family w/ the baby next to mine in the NICU is not paying anything because the parents lie/cheat/steal in order to avoid working; when because my husband has a job; we end up paying over $8000 for our baby's care.

Just the other day I had this conversation w/ a friend. She knows a family that just bought a $125 high chair but yet they receive medical, food, and heat assistance because the father does not make very much money. Do I think it's wrong, yes I do.

We used to have a pastor in our church whose family was on WIC - because their salary qualified them. They had excellent insurance, an extremely nice house with and addition added on by his parents, they only wore designer clothes, had cable, new cars, cell phones, etc... They received a lot of money from his family. Do I think it was wrong, yes. They could have canceled their cable and paid for their groceries themselves. The other thing that they did was get everything possible allowed even though she knew she wouldn't use it (they didn't drink milk), and then she would pass it out to her friends who were not on WIC.



APZR -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/8/2008 8:53:16 PM)

The problem is not a matter of whether one SHOULD take it if NEEDED... but rather what will one do to improve their conditions, improve their education, improve their attitude and habits to improve themselves? Falling on hard times is easy to do, a couple of major medical bills will accomplish that. But to chose to live on public assistance for life is THE problem IMNSHO.



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/9/2008 6:06:20 AM)

quote:

I think anyone can fall on hard times and I see nothing wrong with accepting government assistance temporarily. After all, most of us pay into it year after year and that's what it's there for.


I pretty much agree with this.

Personally, I'd prefer that dh's paycheck come home to *us* and see the welfare system reformed and cut waaaaaaay back, however, the government is taking chunks out of our money in upsetting amounts. Every financial step up we take, here comes the city and state and federal folks all wanting a piece of our pie. [:@] If we run into difficulty at some point, I will have no guilt about using some of what we gave the government until we get back on our feet.

However, even in hard times we have never qualified for things like food stamps or housing assistance, because my dh is a hard worker and at one point took on 3 jobs, and because we invested our money wisely and owned our (junker) cars outright and had a mortgage rather than a rent. I think that's as it should be--we should be working our hardest to rise above that 'qualifying' line.

The other option is to simply cut one's lifestyle way, way down in order to meet a low income. I have known a few families who did this. Their incomes were unbelieveably low and they were large families, but they were homesteading, growing much of their own food, making their own clothes, avoiding doctors like the plague, rarely driving anywhere, etc. That's easier to do in some places than in others, though.



Sideways -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/9/2008 7:00:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom

quote:

I think anyone can fall on hard times and I see nothing wrong with accepting government assistance temporarily. After all, most of us pay into it year after year and that's what it's there for.

I pretty much agree with this.


I've been following that other thread, too, and I also agree with this statement.

Maggie, you made a comment about frugal families "avoiding doctors like the plague". That's the only one that gave me pause. I believe good health care, including regular checkups are part of parenting. Not say that you have to go in for every sniffle, but I don't personally see avoiding doctors as an acceptable way of saving money if you have minor children depending on you.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/9/2008 9:15:45 AM)

quote:

Not say that you have to go in for every sniffle, but I don't personally see avoiding doctors as an acceptable way of saving money if you have minor children depending on you.


Having been raised in a family that was into natural remedies, I would say that the main reason for avoiding doctors is not simply to save money.



Sideways -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/9/2008 7:32:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God

quote:

Not say that you have to go in for every sniffle, but I don't personally see avoiding doctors as an acceptable way of saving money if you have minor children depending on you.

Having been raised in a family that was into natural remedies, I would say that the main reason for avoiding doctors is not simply to save money.


Perhaps not, but since this is a financial thread, that's what I was responding to. And there will always be a need for doctors and their care, no matter how many "natural" cures show up to take people's money.

ETA: Today for my son was a perfect example. He may simply have a sore throat, perfectly treatable with natural cures, or he may have strep (we'll know once the culture comes back), and I don't think there's any natural cure I would trust to replace antibiotics. If I didn't take him to a doctor, how would I even be able to test to see if he needs antibiotics in the first place? So, doctors... still a necessary expense.



Consecrated2God -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/10/2008 8:38:10 AM)

We have great health insurance. Our church even pays the co-pay as part of our benefits package. We haven't been to the doctor the entire time we've been here yet, about 7 months. Some families just don't use doctors often.



kernsfamily -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/10/2008 9:27:46 AM)

quote:

I think anyone can fall on hard times and I see nothing wrong with accepting government assistance temporarily. After all, most of us pay into it year after year and that's what it's there for.

However, I think it's irresponsible to stay on it long term and to rely on that to take care of one's family.


There are many families in my in-laws church that are VERY "low income".....not saying that's a "bad thing" in of itself, as they live in rural Arkansas....BUT, many families, also have 5 or more children. (they do not believe in birth control...or medical procedures to prevent pregnancy.....they think it's all in "God's hands" and they will continue to have more children as long as God continues to "bless them" with more.)....some have even been led to believe that they should have vasectomy-reversals (those few who have had them in the past), so as to stop being a barrier to "God's blessings".....and, then, they have what are called "reversal babies"......
Meanwhile, these families are living on less and less (as more children are born)....and, were on the brink of a 'Poverty level income' even before kids.....

As for ME, I have lost a a few jobs in the past (the last time being about 5 years ago).....sometimes it took 6 or so months to get a new one, and get going again financially. We utilized EVERY resource we could. The support we received from our church, and church friends/members and area "faith based" organizations was overwhelming. That, along with the state/government assistance, lifted a huge burden......

but, there's NO WAY I would ever think of those "resources" as something to depend on indefinitely.



P31W -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/10/2008 10:24:14 AM)

What's the name of the compound in TX that was raided?

Those people too believe it's God's will for them to have as many children as possible. They too have no problem with allowing taxpayers pay for them.

quote:

There are many families in my in-laws church that are VERY "low income".....not saying that's a "bad thing" in of itself, as they live in rural Arkansas....BUT, many families, also have 5 or more children. (they do not believe in birth control...or medical procedures to prevent pregnancy.....they think it's all in "God's hands" and they will continue to have more children as long as God continues to "bless them" with more.)....some have even been led to believe that they should have vasectomy-reversals (those few who have had them in the past), so as to stop being a barrier to "God's blessings".....and, then, they have what are called "reversal babies"......
Meanwhile, these families are living on less and less (as more children are born)....and, were on the brink of a 'Poverty level income' even before kids.....



crownlaurel -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/10/2008 2:23:01 PM)

I'm glad my husband isn't of that mindset.

Consecrated, some people aren't able to avoid doctors. Avoiding doctors for my family could have deadly consequences as my youngest has severe asthma and has at least one admission worthy attack per year. Thanks to a great pediatrican who will let him sit in her office all day long giving breathing treatments until an attack ceases, they haven't always resulted in admission. Last week he was hospitalized because he chose a Sunday before a holiday to have the worst attack since he was a baby. We went to one ER and they sent him by ambulance to another ER at a children's hospital where he was later admitted (thankfully only for a day). My co-pays will be $200 plus his deductible and our 20% of whatever is left. We can't afford that but at least we had insurance. Lack of insurance for myself for many years led to me avoiding doctors until I was gravely ill...which occurred rarely as I was usually able to us home remedies or ride it out, but it did occur.

I don't think Christians "should" be on gov't assistance, but I think it has become necessary the way our society is set up. Our church has a $19,000 per year budget (that we probably won't meet as our first 9 months project us at a $4000 shortage). We have to limit our benevolence to $100 per person and hope more than one person doesn't ask per month. We use other Christian resources to help people with food and clothing, but we're just not anywhere near capable to help people with medical expenses.

I think a lot of things could be done within programs to cut costs (sometimes dramatically) without shutting out needy people. I've seen a recent rise in medical clinics for the uninsured. One near here chargs $50 per visit and does't even accept insurance. Health fairs in malls and churches at least help identify those who need help. I think local health departments should bring back doctors, which would reduce non emergencies in ERs an cut costs. Food stamps should be run more like WIC with coupons for specific foods rather than a money amount that can be spent on anything "grocery" (my family used food stamps in the past and I would have been fine with coupons for a bag of apples, 2 cans of veggies, a pound of ground round, etc).



creationtalk -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/10/2008 8:11:59 PM)

quote:

Here is my take on it, and at least part of my answer.

Yes and no. Christians should be willing to accept this assistance if needed. They should not need it however. The local church should be providing for those needs when the need is there. However, because the church is unable to meet that need; some entity must step in and assume the responsibility.


I agree with this, although I think that in many cases the church is not unable, it is UNWILLING. If the church had been/was doing it's job of providing for the Levites (pastors), widows, orphans, and aliens. (Deut 14:29), there would never have been a NEED for all of these social programs.

I also agree with this:
quote:

I don't think Christians "should" be on gov't assistance, but I think it has become necessary the way our society is set up.


And the buracracy feeds on itself and keeps getting bigger...which takes more of our money that could go much more efficiently through our churchs to help people...which means more people need help because the government is taking more to feed the buracracy...so the people vote for the candidate that promised to ease their burdens...with more social programs...that require more buracracy...and more of OUR money....



Consecrated2God -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/11/2008 8:04:42 AM)

quote:

Consecrated, some people aren't able to avoid doctors.


I know that. I was just replying to Sideway's post where she said that avoiding doctors is not an acceptable way of saving money.



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/11/2008 8:18:31 AM)

quote:

Maggie, you made a comment about frugal families "avoiding doctors like the plague". That's the only one that gave me pause. I believe good health care, including regular checkups are part of parenting. Not say that you have to go in for every sniffle, but I don't personally see avoiding doctors as an acceptable way of saving money if you have minor children depending on you.


Maybe I used the "like the plague phrase" too freely. [&o] Probably because when my parents were in family practice there were so many people who would come in for a hangnail, or constipation, or demanding antibiotics for a cold. [8|] People who use more thought before they come in are in stark contrast to that. There are some anti-doctor folks, but mainly many people see it as pointless to take healthy children to the doctor, or to take a child with a cold or even the flu. Because we vax, our kids go at all the recommended times, but those who don't vaccinate have no reason to, in their minds.
Also, some may try at-home remedies before taking kids to the doctor, and a lot of times, that's all they need.

For instance, if I went to the doctor every time I had mastitis, that would be an awful lot of money. I know what it looks like and how to deal with it. If it went on for more than a week, I'd certainly see a doctor, but I haven't needed to yet. OTOH, when Asrat had an infected spiderbite, we dealt with it ourselves and it did begin to heal, but eventually decided that a course of antibiotics would be good just to be safe, and got a scrip from the doctor.

What I really meant was, frugal people consider very carefully whether they *really* need to see a doctor, and consider unnecessary visits to be a waste of moneyc



P31W -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/11/2008 8:19:54 AM)

When these non-filers are added to the non-payers, they add up to 57.5 million income-earning people who will be paying no income taxes.

Even 57.5 million is not the actual number of people because one tax return often represents several people. When all of the dependents of these income-producing people are counted, roughly 120 million Americans – 40 percent of the U.S. population – are outside of the federal income tax system.

from www.taxfoundation.org

quote:

most of us pay into it year after year and that's what it's there for.


I posted the above information so that we get a true picture of who is paying for what. Most Americans pay very little in taxes. 40% of Americans pay in nothing. Most of us don't pay in enough to pay for a policeman to protect our streets much less pay in a surplus to provide assistance for another family.

People need to realize that a small portion of the population is providing almost everything this country is offering.

Rhippie I believe did the math for us not to long ago. Unless each person in your household is paying in $7,000.00 in federal personal income tax per year (not state taxes, not soc. sec and not medicade tax) then you are not paying in your portion of the bill it takes to operate this country. That means a family of four must be paying in approx. $28K inorder to honestly say "we pay our fair part".



Mrs.Wifey -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/11/2008 10:04:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

When these non-filers are added to the non-payers, they add up to 57.5 million income-earning people who will be paying no income taxes.

Even 57.5 million is not the actual number of people because one tax return often represents several people. When all of the dependents of these income-producing people are counted, roughly 120 million Americans – 40 percent of the U.S. population – are outside of the federal income tax system.

from www.taxfoundation.org

quote:

most of us pay into it year after year and that's what it's there for.


I posted the above information so that we get a true picture of who is paying for what. Most Americans pay very little in taxes. 40% of Americans pay in nothing. Most of us don't pay in enough to pay for a policeman to protect our streets much less pay in a surplus to provide assistance for another family.

People need to realize that a small portion of the population is providing almost everything this country is offering.

Rhippie I believe did the math for us not to long ago. Unless each person in your household is paying in $7,000.00 in federal personal income tax per year (not state taxes, not soc. sec and not medicade tax) then you are not paying in your portion of the bill it takes to operate this country. That means a family of four must be paying in approx. $28K inorder to honestly say "we pay our fair part".


[sm=kiss.gif] Thank you!

This is the one thing that bothers me the MOST about government aid receivers- their claim that they "are entitled because they pay for it anyway" when in fact, they are NOT paying for it(and neither am I, if we want to be technical). They are receiving MORE then they paid in, plus at the end of the year I'm sure they are all getting back more just in tax returns(because of EIC) then what was taken from their paycheck throughout the year.



Sideways -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/11/2008 1:16:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
This is the one thing that bothers me the MOST about government aid receivers- their claim that they "are entitled because they pay for it anyway" when in fact, they are NOT paying for it(and neither am I, if we want to be technical). They are receiving MORE then they paid in, plus at the end of the year I'm sure they are all getting back more just in tax returns(because of EIC) then what was taken from their paycheck throughout the year.


You're right, of course. The aid receivers don't "deserve" it, in the sense that they've paid for it, but I'd rather see them receive temporary help while improving their situation, then the ugly alternative.

My dad had to put his family on welfare once, but he joined the Army for a better job and better training, and we did just fine on our own from then on. But for a brief time, his children would've gone hungry had it not been for that welfare help. Nowadays he makes around 100K, so he's definitely paid back everything he took way back then... but that's not the point.

My husband calls it "enlightened self interest". While I do think that public schools often need a lot of improvement (some are quite good, some are awful), I believe in paying taxes for PS, because a decently educated public is better for me and my family and the country in the long run.

My brother knew a single mom who was going to college on state aid, and nobody complained, even though they weren't getting the grants she was getting as a single mom. Why? Because they all knew that in the long run, it was cheaper to send this young mom to college so she could get a good job, then force her to "pull herself up by her bootstraps", meaning she'd be working minimum wage jobs and receiving welfare for the rest of her life.

Ideally, welfare should be a hand up, not a hand out, but... that's a who 'nuther thread.



Flintejae -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/11/2008 1:29:09 PM)

I'm on WIC and my son is on government health insurance. I don't feel the least bit guilty about it either.

I thank God for the opportunity WIC provides for our household. I'm also thankful Jadon can get government health insurance. If I were to get pregnant - and if I qualified - I would get on the health insurance to pay for the pregnancy and delivery because our current health insurance does Not cover maternity. I find that to be an opportunity that I'm thankful for. I don't consider myself a mooch either.

I do think it's wrong to USE WIC to provide for others. There are several things I don't buy because we either A. don't need it or B. don't eat it. I believe that would be irresponsible and stealing in the name of helping. I remember when I went to my first appointment and found out we qualified. I could have cried. I was so thankful. I told the lady that and her comment was this, "I find it refreshing to talk to someone who appreciates it and finds it helpful. You'd be shocked how many women just expect it because they've always gotten it as a child and now they are receiving it also." That made me pause. I don't agree with the mentality that it MUST be provided. I'm just thankful it is.

I grew up as an only child with my mother the only form of support. We had food stamps, section 8, and WIC. My mom worked like a dog but simply couldn't provide enough to sustain the household without that help. Once I was older I worked to provide for the household as well. We got dirty looks and rude opinions caste our way constantly but we didn't care - and still don't. That governmental aid saved us and we're STILL thankful for it.

Someone recently told me that welfare is only 1% of the over all budget. If so, that's pretty small!



Flintejae -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/11/2008 1:33:44 PM)

OMG I just posted a LONG RESPONSE AND LOST IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brief Synopsis:

I am on WIC and my son has government health insurance. I don't feel the least bit guilty about it either.

I grew up in a single family household as an only child. My mom worked like a dog, but simply couldn't provide everything by herself. I grew up with my mother receiving food stamps, section 8, and WIC. I can't tell you how much that saved us. We'd get plenty of nasty looks, attitudes, and opinions - but that was THEIR 'bag', not ours. We weren't using the system, we were thankful every month for the support. Eventually, in my teens, my mom was able to stop receiving the benefits because I was able to work to provide for the household as well.

I personally think it's stealing when you purchase stuff on your WIC card because you 'can' even though you don't need it and then give it to someone else.

I think the problem comes when people Expect it with the thought that the government SHOULD take care of them.

I'm one who is thankful they can help.

Someone told me that welfare is only 1% of the government budget. If that's true, then that's pretty small! imho.



IonMoon -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/11/2008 1:39:14 PM)

I would say that Christians who are eligible for any program should certainly make use of it. There is nothing wrong with it unless they are doing ssomething illegal (trying to get what they aren't eligible for) or immoral (not getting a job/training when they could because it is easier not to).

BUT most people on govt assistance programs are working and are on them short-term- and that doesn't even take into account whether they are Christians.

Tara P



P31W -> RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid? (9/11/2008 2:10:22 PM)

quote:

I would say that Christians who are eligible for any program should certainly make use of it.


Of course if people didn't apply for welfare it could mean that some "social workers" would lose their jobs.



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