RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or government funded aid?
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/11/2008 2:40:50 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
You're right, of course. The aid receivers don't "deserve" it, in the sense that they've paid for it, but I'd rather see them receive temporary help while improving their situation, then the ugly alternative.
I really think the key word here is *temporary*, which doesn't bother me at all. We've used WIC when it was needed, and stopped our benefits as soon as our budget allowed even though we still qualified financially. I guess technically we still are since I'm receiving federal grants for school.
I do however think it's wrong to be getting any help if it can be otherwise afforded. It does bother me, in my own selfishness to see people on WIC, Food stamps, and everything else just because they can be and then they have "luxury" items on top of it that they pay for out of their own budget.
quote:
Ideally, welfare should be a hand up, not a hand out, but... that's a who 'nuther thread.
I agree here too, although I think you and I agree about this in general...(maybe not so much on health care though)
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/11/2008 4:09:09 PM
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metoo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Flintejae
Someone recently told me that welfare is only 1% of the over all budget. If so, that's pretty small!
That's simply not true. The 2005 US Federal budget included 12.7% for unemployment and welfare. In addition, Medicaid and Healthcare (not including Medicare, another 13%) was over 9% of the budget. There are other categories that probably include some "welfare" such as eduation and training. Just Medicaid, unemployment and welfare take over 22¢ out of each tax dollar.
My source is Wikipedia for these figures.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/11/2008 4:34:51 PM
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relady
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quote:
The 2005 US Federal budget included 12.7% for unemployment and welfare. Unemployment is NOT welfare, Medicare is NOT welfare. Medicaid I guess could be considered welfare, but would not be considered welfare in the more traditional sense. Even at 22% it's a relatively small slice of the taxpayer's dollar, although I am sure that 22% includes items that most people would not consider welfare. In fact, that 22% includes many programs that benefit the middle class (Medicare, school loans, school lunches and veterans pensions to name a few). So in order to villainize that amount of welfare, conservatives must also villainize the middle class. And they do this with a straight face, all the while undercutting the middle class as much as possible.
< Message edited by relady -- 9/11/2008 4:45:42 PM >
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/11/2008 6:52:37 PM
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metoo
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quote:
Unemployment is NOT welfare, Medicare is NOT welfare.
I agree that unemployment is not welfare. I had to include it because that is how it was broken out in the budget summary I was looking at. I do not know what percentage of the 12+% is welfare and what percentage is unemployment.
I also agree that Medicare is not welfare. I included it in passing because the OP listed it as one of the types of government aid that perhaps Christians should not partake of.
I completely disagree that 22% is not a big part of the taxpayer's dollars. This is only the federal government. It's also important to remember that many welfare benefits (and related programs such as food stamps, WIC, childcare assistance, housing assistance, the list goes on and on and on) are paid for in part or in whole by state governments.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 12:14:11 AM
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relady
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quote:
It's also important to remember that many welfare benefits (and related programs such as food stamps, WIC, childcare assistance, housing assistance, the list goes on and on and on) are paid for in part or in whole by state governments. Actually...food stamps, WIC, Section 8 are funded in large part by federal dollars. They are federal programs that are administered by the states. Some states add state money to the federal money, some don't. But I do believe that the eligibility requirements are pretty standard across the board them being federal programs and all. Section 8 of course is pretty much useless unless you want to live in a ghetto or a war zone. Of course, if that's what you have to do that's what you have to do, I guess. I am thankful I've never been in that position.
quote:
I also agree that Medicare is not welfare. I included it in passing because the OP listed it as one of the types of government aid that perhaps Christians should not partake of. Yeah, I have a feeling when a lot of these people hit 65 and their choice is Medicare or nothing they will be first in line to apply for their Medicare benefits, LOL. I know I sure don't want to see it go away!!
If Medicare were to to be ended I have no idea what I would do when my hubby retires and his health insurance goes away. By that time a lot of people are completely uninsurable from a private insurance perspective. I hear a lot of complaints about it but very few ideas about how to go about replacing it other than just leaving everyone to fend for themselves, which I don't think is really where we want to go. I know I don't.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 7:55:43 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Even at 22% it's a relatively small slice of the taxpayer's dollar,
Let me see now. That would mean a 22% tax REDUCTION in what I pay. Maybe for YOU that is chump change but for some of us who pay in a lot of taxes it's turns out to be thousands of dollars per year.
It's also extremely wasteful. Let me keep those thousands, look around me here at home and see who has real need and who is simply in greed. Cut out the government completely and let those of us who "work and earn" the money decide who is doing their "fair share" and could need a hand up and not a hand out.
Looking now at one of my employees federal withholding for the MONTH he would get to "keep" 135.00 extra. For the year that would mean he is paying to support strangers many whom work with a lazy hand, don't work, don't try to do what is right and so on would be able to provide for HIS FAMILY another $1,620.00!!!!!!! Maybe "you" call that a small slice but then again you are not the one who is doing "his" work today!
I also did not include his state taxes. Throw that into the mix and the man has another couple of hundred dollars in his family budget to use as "he" sees fit.
We also need to include one of the MOST abused welfare funds and that is disability.
< Message edited by P31W -- 9/12/2008 8:07:06 AM >
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 8:05:35 AM
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P31W
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quote:
My dad had to put his family on welfare once, but he joined the Army for a better job and better training, and we did just fine on our own from then on.
I wish I had a dollar for every person on welfare or needing help whom I have suggested they join the service laugh in my face. Too many on welfare "don't" want to earn their own way. They want handouts.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 12:17:13 PM
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Flintejae
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P31 - Yes, there are people who abuse the system. I don't think anyone disagrees with you. However, there are people who don't and find the governments assistance a Blessing. It sounds like that idea makes you almost bitter and I'm sorry for that - but I'm not sorry for the help.
With us, we had section 8 somewhere around 14 to 20 years ago. Thankfully, good apartments were still taking it. However, shortly after we quit, most of the good places quit too. It was so embarrassing for us the way my mom and I were judged when people found out we had section 8. They immediately thought we must be moochers or slum lords. We weren't. We took care of our apartment. Actually, we normally left it better than we found it. We would have ended up in the ghetto areas were the schools where extremely poor if it hadn't been for our section 8 and the fact that good apartments still took it.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 12:21:00 PM
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P31W
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This thread is a spin off from one asking about people who choose to continue to have children they cannot afford and expect the government to provide for them.
The poster used scripture to show that we as Christians are to work both day and night to try and provide for our own needs and not be a burden to others.
I gave scripture showing that when a person is in need they are to first turn to their family for support. Then to their church.
I am not bitter. I am angry. I am angry that people PLAN to have children and expect the government (ie me) to work and pay for them.
Stop having "intercourse" if you cannot afford the baby. It's abuse to us who are working to meet our own families needs and the needs of those in our own chruches.
< Message edited by P31W -- 9/12/2008 12:30:59 PM >
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 12:26:57 PM
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P31W
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quote:
Brief Synopsis:
I am on WIC and my son has government health insurance. I don't feel the least bit guilty about it either.
I grew up in a single family household as an only child. My mom worked like a dog, but simply couldn't provide everything by herself. I grew up with my mother receiving food stamps, section 8, and WIC. I can't tell you how much that saved us.
It cost me. I didn't save a dime. In fact I had to work overtime being without my son to provide for you.
I guess you don't feel any guilt at all. And you wonder why I might be bitter. Give me a break. This is a second generation we are talking about.
quote:
If I were to get pregnant - and if I qualified - I would get on the health insurance to pay for the pregnancy and delivery because our current health insurance does Not cover maternity.
This is abuse of the system. Married people do not have to have sexual intercouse inorder to satisfy one another sexually. To KNOWING put your family in a position where you would expect the government to come in an rescue you is irresponsible and it abuses those of us who are trying our very best to be responsible citizens.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 12:42:30 PM
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P31W
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On the other thread a woman who was yelling at us because we work and pay for her grandchild and should sit back and shut up posted an article for us evil people to read.
Evidently she did not read it before she posted it because it backfired in her face. Here is the link. Its' a crosswalk article on welfare.
http://www.crosswalk.com/finances/507392/
quotes from the article
Additionally, most welfare recipients resent the system and, ultimately, the society that supports them. Why? Because of the degrading method in which the funds are distributed and the stigma attached to "taking someone else's money." Welfare must be voluntary to express any kind of caring. Government welfare recipients must adopt an attitude of "you owe it to me" to justify receiving the money, even if they have legitimate needs. After only one generation, a welfare mentality and permanent dependence develops. The temptations of free money attracts more and more recipients until, finally, there are fewer "givers" than "takers."
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 2:39:42 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
I guess technically we still are since I'm receiving federal grants for school.
You're right that we probably don't agree on health care, and that's fine. But believe me, I'd much rather see money spent on sending a great lady like you to nursing schools. It's hard work for you, but you're going to be making more money and paying more taxes, so it's the long run, it's just better for everyone that those who are willing are educated to the best possible job they can.
quote:
quote:
My dad had to put his family on welfare once, but he joined the Army for a better job and better training, and we did just fine on our own from then on.
I wish I had a dollar for every person on welfare or needing help whom I have suggested they join the service laugh in my face. Too many on welfare "don't" want to earn their own way. They want handouts.
I will say that my dad barely made it in under the max age allowed for a man to enlist, so it's not an option for everyone.
And he didn't enlist during the Iraq war. Back then my dad had a wife and two kids, and if he looked at us and thought he'd be sent to Iraq and possibly die ... he might have had second thoughts, too. I'm proud of my family members who are currently serving, but it's a difficult call to make for someone with small children.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 5:23:16 PM
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pbaribeault
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I think this comes down to the covenant a society/nation makes together when they choose to come together, make a government, pay taxes etc.
I am a Canadian, and we have a different system, a different basic covenant-of-society, a different reason for confederation (in the case of Canada) (meaning: a coming together to form a nation) or independence (in the case of America). This gives me an outside perspective that may be of some use.
Working from a basic example, say 6 people go out for lunch regularly together. They come to an agreement of how to pay. Maybe they skip the math and all pay one-sixth of the bill. Maybe they do the math and pay for what they ate. Maybe each person takes a turn paying for the whole group once every six weeks. All of these are fair agreements to make as a group, and the agreements are made by the people according to their own choice and will.
When a nation is formed, a form of government is chosen and/or a constitution or whatever. This is the basic covenant of that society, an agreement made and pledged to by the founders and original citizens on behalf of their descendants as well. Immigrants make the same pledge for themselves and their descendants.
So, sometimes these nations choose to use taxes for programs. In this, in a democracy, that decision represents the will of the majority of the people. The basic covenant of a democracy is that all persons will uphold and live with the will of the majority, or else they will seek to change it through democratically acceptable means.
So, if it is the will of the majority that individuals or families who meet various criteria should be given a certain portion of tax money, then that is a part of the way that society is choosing to run itself. The ethical decision is made at the point of the creation of the program, and it is made by society-at-large through whatever democratic processes have occurred.
Meaning, if any society chooses to share-out tax money according to criteria, through gov't programs, there is no ethical problem with members of that society accepting what has willingly, legally and democratically been allocated to them.
Surely it would be senseless for me to pay for my own healthcare in a society that chooses to fund that collectively through taxes? Surely it would be idiotic for me not to claim legitimate tax deductions or credits for which I qualify?
That would be just as silly as refusing to benefit from anything else the government legitimately spends funds on.
The government knows my income level and the ages of my children, and the portion of our national revenue that has been allotted for my family's use simply appears in my bank account. If my situation qualifies me for a greater proportion, I let them know by applying for the appropriate program. This seems like the simplest logic in the world in my Country.
Why is it that when the US gov't creates programs for the sharing of national revenue with people who meet various criteria that there is some sense of guilt over accepting what your society at large has allocated to people in the position that you are in?
Also, It's funny how nobody talked about this issue when you-all were wondering what to spend your 'economic stimulus' money on. Is it somehow different when everybody 'qualifies' for the 'program'?
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 5:38:12 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
Also, It's funny how nobody talked about this issue when you-all were wondering what to spend your 'economic stimulus' money on. Is it somehow different when everybody 'qualifies' for the 'program'?
I think it was talked about during the economic stimulus packages, but can you clarify what you mean?
For us, because we don't htink that the "economic stimulus" was a good idea, we would have gladly refused. However, there was not a way to opt out.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 5:50:32 PM
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10SNE1?
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Ok, according to my quickly done and totally unscientific look at the websites of several government agencies which distribute food products through the WIC program:
The average value of a monthly WIC distribution is $50.00
I'm sorry but my 17yo daughter could easily make $50.00 babysitting tonight.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 5:57:44 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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Unless you are getting formula, then it's about $115.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 6:00:05 PM
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macokjc
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There was an article in the local paper a few months ago that stated that a family of 6 could receive over $400 in food benefits. That is probably WIC and food stamps combined. WIC is much different because it is basically dairy products, juice, cereal, formula, etc., designed to help mothers with infants and young children.
I remember reading the article and thinking "Why are these people complaining? I spend less than $400 a month feeding my family of six."
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 6:06:00 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
I remember reading the article and thinking "Why are these people complaining? I spend less than $400 a month feeding my family of six."
Exactly. We spend right at $300 a month and we eat well, meat/poulty at every meal, no processed foods, etc... and yet I've heard people complain about only getting $300 in food stamps for 2-3 people.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 6:19:55 PM
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pbaribeault
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quote:
I think it was talked about during the economic stimulus packages, but can you clarify what you mean?
For us, because we don't htink that the "economic stimulus" was a good idea, we would have gladly refused. However, there was not a way to opt out.
I must have missed the discussion during the economic stimulus days, so, sorry for the inaccuracy.
What I mean is that when government money shows up in people's mail box due to a legitimate plan that the democratically elected government has come up with, well, people just tend to take it.
When I hadn't thought people would have refused this, before you clarified that you had considered doing so, it seemed to me a double-standard that it's OK to accept money from some government decisions (like economic stimulus) and not for other government decisions (like WIC, welfare, old age or healthcare assistance).
To me, in a democracy, where you run your own government, it just seems so strange to consider it immoral to accept what has been allocated for your use. It is allocated by your government, which is essentially you and your 'neighbours' and I can't see a problem with accepting any benefit that your 'neighbours' get together and offer you.
If you really felt it was immoral to benefit from the stimulus check, you might have donated the whole thing or something. However, at some level we have to trust that the government is not made of idiots, and that they are not giving away free money for no reason, or just to be compassionate to the down-and-out. The truth is that a recession can be a depression and that can seriously injure a nation on a grand scale. There have been failed states for this very reason. If they calculated the need to stimulate your economy, chances are that it really was an important thing to do. (Or it was a ploy to gain good-will for voting purposes... you can never be sure.)
Similarly, destitute people can destroy a country, no matter if they got there by their own poor choices or not. It is far smarter on a national scale for the state to support such people forever than to let the nation become what it would if many people in that situation were left to their own devices. Anarchy starts here, and plague and all kind of uncivilized old fashioned ills. On some level welfare is about preventing that on the large scale, not really about sheltering individuals from the results of their poor choices.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 6:28:11 PM
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pbaribeault
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I guess I feel personal about this, because I really do benefit a lot from the way Canada chooses to redistribute tax wealth to ease the challenges of families with youngsters.
(That's in addition to public health care, which I don't even think about except when I'm reading here on the forums and have trouble imagining a society that says, "Whoever gets sick should just pay whoever cares for them like any other service they buy.")
If our income were lower we would get even more support... Plus, I just this week became aware of a program that might pay an extra $100 per month, since I put my daughter in preschool. If I qualify I intend to accept it for as long as I fit the criteria.
So, if this kind of thing is immoral, I just don't get it. It seems like a fine way to run a society to me. All these posts sound like I must be doing something very wrong, if it is wrong to accept $50 for vegetables.
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RE: Should Christians be on any form of Welfare? or go... - 9/12/2008 6:30:23 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 5097
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Capitalism, my dear, it's all about the capitalism.
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