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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/15/2008 8:33:47 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 428
Joined: 1/15/2006
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While its true that God could have given brand new teeth instead of gold fillings we shouldnt discount gold fillings as a false manifestation.
Youve not doubt prayed for God to help fix the car...and God answered. Why not transport you like philip? Youve prayed for doctors and dentists over the years as theyve worked on you, why not ask God to go all the way and heal you without them?
Lets not condemn others for things we pray for and obtain ourselves. God answers in all kinds of ways.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/15/2008 8:38:11 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6258
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
While its true that God could have given brand new teeth instead of gold fillings we shouldnt discount gold fillings as a false manifestation.
We can when later reports come out that they were lying - that dentists put them in, not a move of the Holy Spirit.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/15/2008 8:50:28 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 953
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From: Kansas City, MO
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This is going to be my single post in this thread. Not becuase I'm scared of a fight or those who would say I am running away from "examining everything in the light of scripture" (gag me now), but rather because my opinion is short (for me) and isn't really going to focus on any particulars.
When Lakeland came out, we enetered into tit-for-tat disputes about Todd Bently, Charismaticism, prophecy, and revival in general. Subtitute Todd Bently for whatever leader you like, and it is a blueprint for pretty much every discussion of this nature. It isn't smart or correct, but it's one of the things that make us what we are.
However, we need to consider a couple things. We now have three threads dedicated to "counterfeit revivals". So either the entire church is being swindled (indicating that the evangelical haven America was viewed to be was nothing but a mirage), or maybe God is moving through some rather odd characters as a way of attacking the pride, theistic humanism, and overall "starchiness" of modern day Christianity. If you want a further explanation on my thoughts, check out my blog post on the similar theme.
Either way, the answer is not as naturalistic as sitting on your duff in an online forum shouting, "Heresy! Heresy! Heresy!" Rather, the answer is to pray for a spirit of Wisdom and Revelation to hit the church (Ephesians 1:17-19). If you read some of the wild happenings of the 1st Century church, much of what we throw a fit about now seems quite tame.
Here's to the spread of revival, pass the torches and pitchforks...
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/15/2008 9:20:07 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1126
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quote:
FurGodWurLivin: So either the entire church is being swindled (indicating that the evangelical haven America was viewed to be was nothing but a mirage), or maybe God is moving through some rather odd characters as a way of attacking the pride, theistic humanism, and overall "starchiness" of modern day Christianity.
Reality check: False prophets and false teachers leading people away from Christ isn't a blessed move of God. It's a delusion leading into apostasy.
quote:
When Lakeland came out, we enetered into tit-for-tat disputes about Todd Bently, Charismaticism, prophecy, and revival in general. Subtitute Todd Bently for whatever leader you like, and it is a blueprint for pretty much every discussion of this nature.
Like it or not, Adam, it's because of discussions like this that some have stepped away from these dangerous movements. Thank God.
quote:
Rather, the answer is to pray for a spirit of Wisdom and Revelation to hit the church (Ephesians 1:17-19).
The answer is to counter the falsehoods with the truth.
quote:
Here's to the spread of revival, pass the torches and pitchforks...
The revival of what, praytell.
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/15/2008 9:32:46 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1126
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Hi John! Good to see you, as always.
quote:
gloryandgrace: While its true that God could have given brand new teeth instead of gold fillings we shouldnt discount gold fillings as a false manifestation.
I do indeed discount these alleged miracles. God doesn't miraculously - but partially - heal.
quote:
Youve not doubt prayed for God to help fix the car...and God answered. Why not transport you like philip? Youve prayed for doctors and dentists over the years as theyve worked on you, why not ask God to go all the way and heal you without them?
Dentists fixing a tooth doesn't qualify as a miracle whether we pray about it or not.
quote:
Lets not condemn others for things we pray for and obtain ourselves. God answers in all kinds of ways.
We are also to remain on guard for false miracles, signs, and wonders. That means that not everything that comes in the name of God is truly of God, and we should question and examine everything. When we see something so obviously false, like gold teeth, feathers and gems dropping from heaven, etc, there's nothing wrong with calling it what it is. God doesn't do sideshow tricks to amuse the crowds or fascinate them with wealth.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 9/15/2008 10:17:15 PM >
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/15/2008 9:54:35 PM
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rlj
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Adam your blog post was pretty good until towards the end. Did Emma take you up to Paul's Condo in the 7th heaven so he could reveal that to you? Did someone kick you in the head, punch you in the stomach and shout fresh fire at you several time when this occurred? ; )
quote:
If you read some of the wild happenings of the 1st Century church, much of what we throw a fit about now seems quite tame.
That is quite right and would make for some interesting discussion on another thread. Judging some of the early churches such as Galatia and Corinth with the same zeal that some say we should judge modern churches we would look at the Apostle Paul with scornful contempt not admiration.
quote:
So either the entire church is being swindled (indicating that the evangelical haven America was viewed to be was nothing but a mirage)
Much of the church doesn't recognize it which is why these threads pop up everywhere. ; )
quote:
or maybe God is moving through some rather odd characters as a way of attacking the pride, theistic humanism, and overall "starchiness" of modern day Christianity.
While there is nothing to say God can't move through a Todd- he did through a donkey, he prophesied through King Saul when he was searching to kill David, he used Judas to heal the sick and the lame, he granted great power to Samson after Samson sacrificed his power to a harlot and Peter had an impressive (or unimpressive?) list of sins to his record and we know how important he was. However is it too much to ask that the Lord give us water to drink from a clean cup? Is it really too much to look for, ask for and even expect men and women who are moral, of integrity, who are well versed in the scriptures and most importantly are truthful? Do you believe in Emma, going to heaven and meeting Paul and all of the rest? I'm not asking if it is possible I am asking if you believe it? If all of that kind of stuff isn't true then his testimony is a lie just like Mike Warnke's.
As for what happened in Lakeland many things did- there were thousands of christians gathered together praising and worshipping the Lord. The Lord was with them since when 2 or 3 are gathered together in his name there he is. People were getting saved. People were getting healed and delivered. Was this because of Todd or the faithfulness of our Lord? As for me is it really too much to ask for leaders who are men of integrity and character as leaders? Speaking for myself I prefer to drink my water from a clean cup.
While I agree with you more often than not Adam on the Outpourings and specifically the Florida one I have to disagree.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/15/2008 10:13:50 PM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 716
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
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quote:
So either the entire church is being swindled (indicating that the evangelical haven America was viewed to be was nothing but a mirage), or maybe God is moving through some rather odd characters as a way of attacking the pride, theistic humanism, and overall "starchiness" of modern day Christianity.
Well, more than 90% of the Christians in America defy the first and greatest application of the first and greatest commandment. (read Deut. 6:1-4) More than 90% of the Christians in America render unto Caesar something far more precious than a pinch of incense -- they hand over the hearts, minds, and eternal destinies of their own children to professional indoctrinators whose bottom line creed is -- "There is no god but Caesar -- at least in the "real" world -- and public education is his prophet."
When the vast majority of us are actively and willingly cooperating in a satanic scheme for our extermination, we have bigger problems than "starchiness."
Folks, a reformation has been underway for nearly three decades, now, here in America. Or, for those who want something more thrilling and less demanding than home schooling, we have a buffet of miscellaneous mystical experiences.
Blessings, for the obedient. The opportunity to howl, jerk, and gibber for those who prefer a thrill ride to a life of sober discipleship.
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The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/18/2008 8:11:35 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 428
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: online
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quote:
Dentists fixing a tooth doesn't qualify as a miracle whether we pray about it or not.
quote:
Lets not condemn others for things we pray for and obtain ourselves. God answers in all kinds of ways.
We are also to remain on guard for false miracles, signs, and wonders. That means that not everything that comes in the name of God is truly of God, and we should question and examine everything. When we see something so obviously false, like gold teeth, feathers and gems dropping from heaven, etc, there's nothing wrong with calling it what it is. God doesn't do sideshow tricks to amuse the crowds or fascinate them with wealth.
Hello lw9:
Its good to read you again, Ive only lurked for some time lately.
Your right a dentist-job may not be a miracle but if its a genuine answer to prayer it is still a healing or relief by God's agency. You received what you asked for in faith. Is the problem how much we asked or maybe how much we depended upon human agency? Im sure its different with every person.
Im hoping you remember me well enough to know that I hate falsehood in the form of miracle/healing claim as any false doctrine. But my experience has been that God answers us on the level we are at.
Luke 8:40----
When Jairus asked Jesus to heal his daughter on the verge of death he asked for Jesus to come lay hands/minister to her in person. The woman with the issue of blood determined that only "touching the hem of his garment" would do for her to receive. God answered both of them according as their faith operated. Now, this obvious truth can be taken to extremes as you and I have both seen from the TV evangelist, but in this event scripture reveals a God that meets peoples needs where they are at.
So to me it can be a gold filling or a new tooth. It can be a 'touch' and all is healed or a prolonged time of waiting for the miracle with some really bad news on the way home. Either way its the 'merciful and gracious God' that reaches out to us and heals.
I used to work out in the gym, while doing some free-weights I stressed my ligaments in my arms, both arms hurt badly for months, going on 6-8 months. As I was praying I asked the Lord Jesus to heal my right arm which pained me the worst. Immediately I was healed. the pain left and the full use of my arm was restored. Now, God knew my left arm was still in pain but he didnt heal the other one????? All I can say is over the next months that arm regained its strength and freedom of movement. I remember looking back some years later saying to myself " I wished I had prayed for both arms instead of one". God met me where I was and answered me.
I do not believe this testimony is very different from many many others whom God has healed. It would have been nothing for God to have healed both my arms, I wanted relief in both arms and I believe God can heal both as easily as one. But God didnt do a 'full healing' as some posters here presume. But I can say with all glory to Jesus Christ I was healed of extreme pain in one arm. My other arm remaining in pain did not lessen the reality of what happened in my right arm, in fact it amplified it. So while some have created a criteria for what is genuine and what is not in regards to 'how much manifestation should occur' I prefer to leave that to God and be thankful for what I have received.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/18/2008 8:49:45 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 428
Joined: 1/15/2006
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This is not meant to create a 'definition' squabble. But I have to disagree with the term revival.
Whatever has happened in Florida or winchester or whereever, revival is marked by a return of the church to repentance and active obedience of God's word. Healings, deliverances, salvations have been catagorized as the mark of revival but I wonder that it is only the sovereignty of God displaying himself in some miraculous events that are meant to induce people to consider the mercies of God upon sinners.
In other words, these at best would be pre-cursors to what might become a revival.
But heres where I begin to part company, not with contempt but with a real disappointment in the leadership.
1. Angels, Emma's teachings and other supernatural occurances do not constitute a repentant heart among the people.
2. Preaching on finances, miracles and faith do not consititute the gospel message to bring about a right heart and mind in the light of sins that must be forsaken and repented of.
3. Supernatural occurances, healings and deliverances ( supposing all are true for the sake of argument) do not at all prove that the crowds are seeking Jesus Christ. We know from Jesus himself that he had followers of thousand who came because of loaves and fishes.
4. What great discoveries were made about the people who attend? What new repentance has followed their visiting the arenas of Todd or the other teachers? Is Jesus Christ even more preeminent or have miracles, healings and 'new revelations' become the draw for the multitudes?
I could go on, but I wont, all Im saying is revival presupposes a declension in the spiritual condition of the masses and the effect of God's Spirit has been a new life of forgiveness and obedience is springing forth from the 'understanding' or the 'anointing' or the 'revelation' whatever you want to call it, of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When revival is true, wouldnt a greater commitment to obedience mark such and event? Wouldnt greater orderliness, chastity, love of God and sinners well up within the masses so that they would be emboldened to preach the gospel with greater confidence? How should the ministers react? Would they be imbittered against their wives? Would they minimize the gospel and maximize the time spent on angels? Would the ministers be ignorant of the spiritual condition of their co-laborers? Wouldnt they become even more keenly aware of what is happening spiritually? Discerning of Spirits would be more likely and not less likely. Words of wisdom and knowledge would certainly be more evident because of such an outpouring of grace to 'lay aside every weight and sin that so easily besets us?
But instead when the leadership implode, the co-laborers are caught blindsided, the revival all but stops dead in its tracks because the main 'leader' is scandalized, we cannot but presume that no revival has occured but something else, something that has not settled deeply into the masses but sits shallow upon their hearts.
I refuse to write off all these leaders as false, but I cannot understand the lack of gospel preaching designed to propel the ministry of the Spirit forward and strengthen the church for its trials that await.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/19/2008 8:55:16 AM
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GodsMusic
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Didn't someone who once ran a three ring circus himself say that there is a sucker born every minute?
There will always be a fake revival for the ones who want one.
Count me out. I believe God is powerful enough to give real revival, if only we would follow His word to recieve it. 2Chron 7:14 for example.
Lakeland, Golden Gate, Winchester or Canada or whatever else will turn up next week. It's all a three ring circus that does more to harm the gospel message of than anything else I can think of.
I'm pentecostal, by the way.
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/19/2008 11:44:25 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3605
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From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
we cannot but presume that no revival has occured but something else,
It began as "apostasy" so it ended in apostasy.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/19/2008 4:03:38 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2191
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quote:
It began as "apostasy" so it ended in apostasy.
Apostasy is an awful big word why do you use it for this?
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/19/2008 4:25:19 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1874
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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Winchester "believers"!!!!
Check out these way cool angel feathers, available online (I don't make a cent!)
angel feather link one
angel feather link two
angel feather link three
Pay no attention to the marketing as "duck down and feathers", these are the real deal as pictured on the Winchester Outpouring site
here
Please understand that I'm not out to put you down.
I see people supporting the idea that there might be a revival over and beyond grasping the implications of feather fakery.
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/19/2008 11:41:49 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1126
Joined: 7/22/2005
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Hi gloryandgrace!
Of course I know you well enough to know that you hate falsehood! I've always enjoyed your posts, and this is just a simple case of disagreement. Here's why...
quote:
But I can say with all glory to Jesus Christ I was healed of extreme pain in one arm. My other arm remaining in pain did not lessen the reality of what happened in my right arm, in fact it amplified it. So while some have created a criteria for what is genuine and what is not in regards to 'how much manifestation should occur' I prefer to leave that to God and be thankful for what I have received.
Something to consider, though. The miracle healings of the Bible were for a very specific purpose, and that was to testify to the awesome power of the one True God and support the gospel they brought. You say you have been healed by God in that one arm and that's fair enough - I'm not arguing that point or calling you a liar - but what would your testimony be to the unbeliever or new Christian regarding this matter? That God can only heal partially and leaves the rest of you in pain? That may cause confusion to some or even many people. The answer may be something that is to remain between you and God, and that's totally fair [Paul's thorn comes to mind], but the Biblical miracle healings were complete, and they were [and still are] a public testimony that clearly point to God.
When some new revival publically claims to have miracle healings of God, we need to look a little more closely at what's going on and what kind of testimony they are really giving to new Christians or an unbelieving crowd. Here's a few thoughts on Winchester:
- What do gold teeth publically testify? They testify that God can't heal a tooth properly. They testify that God's 'miracles' are nothing more than parlor tricks. They also point people towards the promise of more wealth if only one follows God.
- Who are the 'revival' leaders looking to as their source of inspiration and 'impartation'? In Winchester's case, it's Todd Bentley. Need we say more?? Hopefully not. The delusion of Lakeland was led by a false teacher and a false prophet, and no good fruit will fall from that tree.
It's for those reasons and many more that I must disagree on these new 'miracles'. I do agree with you that God answers in all kinds of ways, but we can and should still test these things at all times.
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/23/2008 12:11:49 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3605
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
we can and should still test these things at all times.
These falsehoods are like the weather.
The storms get bigger, more in number and more dangerous.
These false revivals will only get bigger, more in number and more dangerous.
"Be NOT deceived!" takes on a whole new mantra.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/27/2008 8:10:15 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 428
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: online
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quote:
It's for those reasons and many more that I must disagree on these new 'miracles'. I do agree with you that God answers in all kinds of ways, but we can and should still test these things at all times.
lw9
As I was reading your post I was filled with a joy at your response. Even when we disagree I feel safe. I mean that if you say something as a correction or a warning to myself or others I have found it to be in a godly spirit and with God's Word center.
I appreciate that kind of dedication to Jesus Christ and its worthy of emulation.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/28/2008 6:30:42 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1126
Joined: 7/22/2005
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Gloryandgrace:
See PM. 
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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