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ORIGINAL: emerging

Ok.

Can we agree on this though: That as Chritians we share a desire to see the healing of the world through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, yes? We share a desire that all the world might come to know God as revealed in Christ rightly and that together we can worship in spirit and truth, yes?

If we can agree on that, than we can disagree on the best means by which we be the salt and light of the world, pointing the way to that vision. But in that disagreement certainly we can agree that there are some ways that are better than others, yes? My only point is that pointing fingers, making jokes, making fun of and name-calling is perhaps not the best way for us as Christians to express the Good News and beckon prodigal sons and daughters to return home.

grace and peace.

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ORIGINAL: emerging

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ORIGINAL: wintery

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ORIGINAL: emerging

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Some things NEED to be made fun of.

I am sure God is laughing at our jokes.

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Don't expect me to shed any tears over a group that.....is lost.

there, I fixed what I think you were trying to say.

Actually when someone claims to be saved and to even have a _special_ outpouring from God, they can either

1. Be better than the rest of us spiritually as they ADVERTISE, or

2. Compare with the Bible and

3. Compare with the truth of reality

and come up with a different conclusion than their group.

So that would justify mocking them?

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ORIGINAL: emerging

In my discussion I try very hard (failing at times) to remain humble and refuse to resort to name-calling or making fun of others just because they don't see things the way I see things.


WINTERY:
Some things NEED to be made fun of. Don't expect me to shed any tears over a group that it only takes seconds of time to see that

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emerging:
Don't expect me to shed any tears over a group that.....is lost.

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ORIGINAL: Lapidoth

That aside, maybe we can get back to supporting the watchmen,
instead of taking pop shots at them like the earlier pages of the Lakeland thread.

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ORIGINAL: emerging

I'll leave you all to it, then. Happy hunting!

peace.

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ORIGINAL: emerging

Lap-
I was unaware that you or wintry considered the people you are speaking out against as "brethren." I am pleasantly surprised.

Since you see them as part of the family of God may I suggest you consider Jesus' advice to the disciples who complained about those "other people" who were casting out demons but not "with us"? I believe Jesus said to leave them be - for a house divided against itself cannot stand (that was aimed at the disciples, btw, and not the "others").
Also, when some well-meaning people approach Paul with news that others are proclaiming the gospel but under bad motives or in a way that they don't like Paul says, in effect, so what! As long as Jesus Christ is proclaimed, so what! Phil. 1

Just a thought.
grace and peace.

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ORIGINAL: solarflare

Hmmmm.....yes, exactly so. Exactly so. God bless you Earthless. Sincerely.

And everyone else who sees the truth and wants so much to get it across.

May God have mercy. This is serious business.

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People want to be different. The irony, ladies and gentlemen, is if Christians led the ordinary Christian life they would be different in all of the ways that really matter.

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We used to joke about extreme spiritual manifestations, and our extreme, clear case example was swinging from the chandeliers and barking like dogs...

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ORIGINAL: earthless

You're right solarflare.

Ladies and gentlemen, why would anybody even be tempted to say that people thrashing about making animal noises is an evidence of the movement of God? What has the Body of Christ come to that we look at this kind of behavior and we call it the Holy Spirit? Just on the face of it, doesn't it seem - think, please think - doesn't it seem that if anyone was going to turn people into animals it would not be God? It would be Satan.

I mean if I had a choice. Remember the Gadarene demoniac? Thrashing about in the tombs, demon possessed, cutting his body, living like pardon me, an animal? That was demons. Not God.

The only time I can think of God making someone like an animal was Nebuchadnezzar - and that was a judgment of God.

If you recall, it was when Nebuchadnezzar came to his senses that he was released from his bovine behavior. Read it in the book of Daniel. He was taking all the glory to himself, not giving praise to God, so God made him into a cow. I mean, he was still Nebuchadnezzar, but he lived like a cow.

He went out in the field for seven years (Daniel 4), ate grass. His nails grew long. He was an animal. He bellowed and mooed, I imagine. And then he came to his senses, gave God the glory and was restored to his position of authority. Read it, it's right there in Daniel.

We used to joke about extreme spiritual manifestations, and our extreme, clear case example was swinging from the chandeliers and barking like dogs...

Now someone might say, Well, this roaring in the Spirit is giving God the glory. Ladies and gentlemen, doesn't that strike you as bizarre? I'm at a loss for words here.

Doesn't it strike you as bizarre that someone says, I give God glory by howling at the moon, roaring like a lion, rolling around and barking. Doesn't that strike you as strange?

What is really stunning about this is it's called "revival". Do you get this? A revival is to return life to something. That's what it means to revive it.

In other words, this is an example of us being revived in the Spirit. Our Christian lives were spiritually dead and now we receive spiritual life when we get revived spiritually. Then what happens? We act like animals. That's an evidence of our spiritual revival. That's what Christianity has come to. The Spirit turns you into an animal.

We've talked about this before and I've discussed it a little bit sanely, calmly, intelligently reflected on it. And then I asked myself, What am I doing? Why am I treating this like it's something sane?

Let's go back to the Bible for a second. When I read my Bible I find as evidence of spiritual vitality - balance, sanity (remember the Gadarene demoniac). They regained their sanity and became like people rather than like animals once the demons were cast out.

I'm not saying here, by the way, that those who do this are filled with demons, I don't know. I'm just saying that it seems like demons are the ones who would be more likely to make us act like animals than God.

In the Bible I see as examples of spiritual vitality thoughtful, careful, meaningful, culturally relevant proclamations of the gospel. I see renewing our minds, order, reasonableness, attractiveness, patterns of submission, faithfully running the race. That's all in there.

But now I'm being asked to believe that genuine revival may entail me being overwhelmed so much so that I act like an animal or fall into epileptic fits thrashing about and out of control. Good night! What next?

This is all we need as a church. As if the world doesn't have enough to point at to object to, to discredit our witness, now we've got this. Another lunatic fringe to move towards because the simple basic ordinary Christian life is not good enough.

Okay, here is something really bizarre. I'm struggling to find an illustration here that will make the point because bizarre illustrations don't make the point. What is going on is so bizarre but still people accept it. I'm not going to be vulgar for the sake of being vulgar.

What if a group of Christians got together and began to urinate in the middle of the church? Every Sunday.

After all, the scripture says that from our inner most beings will flow rivers of living water, right?

Now, someone is going to find some justification for that kind of thing. I mean, do we really need to call an expert in on this? Does the Bible actually prohibit whizzing in the Spirit? I mean, there is no verse against it.

God moves in strange ways. What next?

The problem with giving illustrations like this is that someone is going to go out and do it, and then he'll give me a phone call and tell me I'm grieving the Spirit, I'm quenching the Spirit. I know people are going to be offended by that illustration - and my apologies - but I choose this bizarre picture to make a point because, frankly, if you choose anything less bizarre somebody might say, Well, maybe. It doesn't sound so bad to me.

You have to choose something utterly bizarre to give a clear case example anymore. We used to joke about extreme spiritual manifestations, and our extreme, clear case example was swinging from the chandeliers and barking like dogs because everybody knows that if anybody swung from the chandelier in church and barked like a dog then it would be unacceptable. Now somebody is asking me to accept this.

If we stand back for just a minute, if we just think a minute, if you are offended by that last illustration, why aren't we equally offended when we go to church and people are roaring and yowling and howling like animals and having epileptic fits, and they are attributing this to God. Instead there are some of us who say, boy the Holy Spirit is really moving. Wake up!

Sure, God has done things which seem strange to us. He even had Isaiah preach nude. Are you going to use that as a proof text for giving a message in your birthday suit next Sunday in church?

It seems to me that a reasonable, mature, biblically literate Christian is going to look at this and say, Don't be ridiculous. Don't even suggest that's from God.

I hope you're reacting in the same way to my suggestion that there might be something called whizzing in the Spirit. That's offensive. That's blasphemous.

If you are concerned about me being a little bit direct or sarcastic, I think it was Paul who said if you want to circumcise yourself to show your spirituality why don't you just cut the whole thing off? That's Galatians 5:12, I believe. So I've got some biblical basis for being a little bit direct.

If you're bugged by the whizzing in the Spirit illustration you ought to be bugged by this because they are both bizarre. Why not snake handlers? What about that? Snake handling is more sane than this. At least you have a verse that directly suggests such a thing in Mark 16.

I think the verse is misunderstood and there is some question as to whether it is authentic, but at least you've got a case. You'll handle snakes and not get bit, remember that verse? But the scripture doesn't say that one of the marks of spiritual life, of revival is howling like an animal. I think it's time for Christians to regain their sanity.

Somebody asked me this morning, "What do you think draws people into this?" Desire for the dramatic? The ordinary Christian life is boring. That's why. It's work. The ordinary Christian life is too ordinary. Instead people want to have this dramatic experience allegedly with God.

People want to be different. The irony, ladies and gentlemen, is if Christians led the ordinary Christian life they would be different in all of the ways that really matter.

When believers get off on tangents like this they are no different than the rest of the world doing loony-toon things. That's just what this is. Loony-toon. You can quote that.

Then you wonder why people think we're nuts! Can you believe it?