Who is "the goverment" and what can it do?

Who is "the goverment" and what can it do? (Full Version)

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TMeeks -> Who is "the goverment" and what can it do? (9/6/2008 11:02:58 PM)
I was at a gathering today where there was an Obama supporter. The reason for his choice is that he felt the "government should take care of the people at home." I found this revealing. So, what IS the 'government' and how can it 'take care of us'? What does it have to do to take care of the people at home? We have plenty of Obama supporters here so we should get some excellent explanations for how the government can take care of us.

Rufas2000 -> RE: Who is "the goverment" and what can it do? (9/7/2008 12:48:06 AM)
quote: I was at a gathering today where there was an Obama supporter. Just one or the only one that chose to reveal his / her self? Speaking of revealing was (s)he wearing an "I'm with Obama" t-shirt? quote: So, what IS the 'government' Depends on who you ask. I'm sure Locke, Paine, Caesar (any of them), Pharoah (any), FDR, Marx, Lenin and Hitler would have very different answers to that question. I believe the government is an institution set up by and accountable to the citizens of a society that provides for the protection of said citizenry from threats foreign (enemy nations, terrorists) and domestic (some terrorists, the robber breaking into your house as you read this). quote: What does it have to do to take care of the people at home? Have to as in morally obligated to or have to as in what a government should do to ensure that the society is running at maximum efficiency? Ideally that would be decided by the people of that society. I do not believe that government interference into economic matters is a good thing but I also don't want to live in a society that does nothing for the least of these. Ideally that would be the church's job but that isn't working right now. So I would say provide temporary assistance to those who are experiencing bad fortune (keeping in mind the mantra hand up not hand out) and making sure those under 18 have their basic necessities provided for. I certainly don't mind other programs (like scholarships and such) provided they are effective and that the citizens approve of them. To answer what I assume is the crux of the matter to you (the potential rise of socialism), I have nothing against the government providing everyone with health insurance. Even if someone is lazy I don't want them to die or suffer because they cannot receive health care. But I don't think a government run or financed health care system would be a net good for all of the citizens so therefore I am against it. So to summarize the health care part of this I don't think the government is obligated to provide everyone with free health care but it would be nice if everyone had access to it. I think it is worthwilde for the citizens and their government to find ways to insure as many people as we can. As far as redistributing wealth and other policies that lean toward socialism I say no. I say no because ultimately it wastes more than it helps and in our fallen world capitalism is the best way to maintain and improve our quality of life. I did health separate since I feel it warranted special attention.

tinydancer2 -> RE: Who is "the goverment" and what can it do? (9/7/2008 9:56:30 AM)
As a protester of the 2 system political parties ways and choosing none of them, the question to me is not who but what is the government is supose to be neutral in it layers, before being clothed with the garment ideologies of any parties: "A government is "the organization, that is the governing authority of a political unit,"[1] "the ruling power in a political society,"[2] and the apparatus through which a governing body functions and exercises authority.[3] "Government, with the authority to make laws, to adjudicate disputes, and to issue administrative decisions, and with a monopoly of authorized force where it fails to persuade, is an indispensable means, proximately, to the peace of communal life."[4] "A compulsory territorial monopolist of protection and jurisdiction equipped with the power to tax without unanimous consent."[5] Statist theorists maintain that the necessity of government derives from the fact that the people need to live in communities, yet personal autonomy must be constrained in these communities." What it can do is to function with efficience in all its layers, stop nonsense spending, giving away $$$ all over as money is not found in trees, be responsable and houseclean often as trow away as much trash and burocracy as possible, not let itself be lazy couch potato unhealthly fat, stop doing what is not working! Do not lie be honest and transparent! Do not let be a puppet in the hands of politicians as those 2 parties always comes, goes and come back again and for this motive they keep compromissing and making dealings with one another and nothing really changes!!! Dont forget who you serve Mr. Government: the people! I am doing my job governing my simple life of 1 better than the Governement is doing its job as I understand it has much going on in the general household buildings of it, lots and lots of employees, as the others political guests also, who may think and behave at times as its their own houses and do what they please! still it has the responsability to do was it is called and pay to do by the People. If I come up with excuses for not doing what gov say is my obligation and responsability the gov would not accept none of my excuses, the same deal does not happens with gov acting poor or even very bad ways. Thanks.

cog41 -> RE: Who is "the goverment" and what can it do? (9/7/2008 10:08:05 AM)
quote: I believe the government is an institution set up by and accountable to the citizens of a society that provides for the protection of said citizenry from threats foreign (enemy nations, terrorists) and domestic (some terrorists, the robber breaking into your house as you read this). Nice but after the robber breaking into your house you should add, those who attempt to usurp and or undermine the laws and policy by which the govt is to operate(the constitution and laws of the people). In saying this we conclude that many of our current "leaders" and officials are violating such a s well as disregarding the will of the people they are sworn to serve. This turns the govt. into that creature that feeds and grows from the taxes and unnecessary burdens it places on the very ones they are to protect and serve. Taxing w/o consultation or reason,imposing law w/o just cause,denying due process in the name of special interest......etc...etc...

Rufas2000 -> RE: Who is "the goverment" and what can it do? (9/7/2008 11:20:37 AM)
quote: Nice but after the robber breaking into your house you should add, those who attempt to usurp and or undermine the laws and policy by which the govt is to operate(the constitution and laws of the people). In saying this we conclude that many of our current "leaders" and officials are violating such a s well as disregarding the will of the people they are sworn to serve. This turns the govt. into that creature that feeds and grows from the taxes and unnecessary burdens it places on the very ones they are to protect and serve. Taxing w/o consultation or reason,imposing law w/o just cause,denying due process in the name of special interest......etc...etc... Yes there is some difficulty with the government submitting to the rule of law but it seems for most people (not saying you, moreso supporters of whatever administration is doing this [;)]) their level of concern or discontent with this is inversely proportional with their support of said administration's policies. But we have a one stop thread for such a discussion and I don't feel like wading into a debate that has been going on ad infinitum. I will say that 9/11 was a game changer and that the contract between citizens and their government is subject to perpetual renegotiation. All I ask is that the debate be framed honestly and that we realize that any changes in the balance of power, freedom and transparency between citizens and their government are most likely permanent or at least long lasting. Even if we defeat Al Quida and the other Muslim terrorists the tactic is easily transferable to other radical causes.

huangshan -> RE: Who is "the goverment" and what can it do? (9/7/2008 1:10:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TMeeks I was at a gathering today where there was an Obama supporter. The reason for his choice is that he felt the "government should take care of the people at home." I found this revealing. So, what IS the 'government' and how can it 'take care of us'? What does it have to do to take care of the people at home? We have plenty of Obama supporters here so we should get some excellent explanations for how the government can take care of us. There's a branch of philosophy and social science out there for the former question. As to the second, I would suggest that maximizing the available opportunities for every person (heavy investment in education, including retraining. Also, child care) and filling in as many cracks as possible for the people at the bottom (health care, some welfare), so they don't fall out and into a place they can never come back. This is, I think, the best way of "taking care of people".

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Who is "the goverment" and what can it do? (9/7/2008 2:19:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: huangshan quote: ORIGINAL: TMeeks I was at a gathering today where there was an Obama supporter. The reason for his choice is that he felt the "government should take care of the people at home." I found this revealing. So, what IS the 'government' and how can it 'take care of us'? What does it have to do to take care of the people at home? We have plenty of Obama supporters here so we should get some excellent explanations for how the government can take care of us. There's a branch of philosophy and social science out there for the former question. As to the second, I would suggest that maximizing the available opportunities for every person (heavy investment in education, including retraining. Also, child care) and filling in as many cracks as possible for the people at the bottom (health care, some welfare), so they don't fall out and into a place they can never come back. This is, I think, the best way of "taking care of people". Actually it more a formula for creating a voting base that is reliant on the government till their last breath...

huangshan -> RE: Who is "the goverment" and what can it do? (9/7/2008 2:37:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: huangshan There's a branch of philosophy and social science out there for the former question. As to the second, I would suggest that maximizing the available opportunities for every person (heavy investment in education, including retraining. Also, child care) and filling in as many cracks as possible for the people at the bottom (health care, some welfare), so they don't fall out and into a place they can never come back. This is, I think, the best way of "taking care of people". Actually it more a formula for creating a voting base that is reliant on the government till their last breath... Once you start making life easier for people, yeah, they tend to not want to go back to the hard life. I for one am glad for indoor plumbing and I am not ashamed to admit it. Those of you who can take pride in being able to use the leaf-and-hole strategy with gusto, well, my hat's off to you.

tafkam -> RE: Who is "the goverment" and what can it do? (9/7/2008 2:54:55 PM)
quote: Once you start making life easier for people, yeah, they tend to not want to go back to the hard life. And the longer people are attached to the government breast, the harder it will be to wean them from it....

huangshan -> RE: Who is "the goverment" and what can it do? (9/7/2008 3:20:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tafkam quote: Once you start making life easier for people, yeah, they tend to not want to go back to the hard life. And the longer people are attached to the government breast, the harder it will be to wean them from it.... Kind of like the toilets, yeah. I'm not seeing the problem here. Are you going to come and take my toilet away?

Psalms274 -> RE: Who is "the goverment" and what can it do? (9/7/2008 3:25:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: huangshan quote: ORIGINAL: tafkam quote: Once you start making life easier for people, yeah, they tend to not want to go back to the hard life. And the longer people are attached to the government breast, the harder it will be to wean them from it.... Kind of like the toilets, yeah. I'm not seeing the problem here. Are you going to come and take my toilet away? You received your toilet from the government? [sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif][8D]

huangshan -> RE: Who is "the goverment" and what can it do? (9/7/2008 3:38:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Psalms274 quote: ORIGINAL: huangshan quote: ORIGINAL: tafkam quote: Once you start making life easier for people, yeah, they tend to not want to go back to the hard life. And the longer people are attached to the government breast, the harder it will be to wean them from it.... Kind of like the toilets, yeah. I'm not seeing the problem here. Are you going to come and take my toilet away? You received your toilet from the government? [sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif][8D] No, but I'm not ashamed to say I'd hate to have it taken away. Tafkam wants to wean me from stuff and I don't know why.

Psalms274 -> RE: Who is "the goverment" and what can it do? (9/7/2008 4:36:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: huangshan quote: ORIGINAL: Psalms274 quote: ORIGINAL: huangshan quote: ORIGINAL: tafkam quote: Once you start making life easier for people, yeah, they tend to not want to go back to the hard life. And the longer people are attached to the government breast, the harder it will be to wean them from it.... Kind of like the toilets, yeah. I'm not seeing the problem here. Are you going to come and take my toilet away? You received your toilet from the government? [sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif][8D] No, but I'm not ashamed to say I'd hate to have it taken away. Tafkam wants to wean me from stuff and I don't know why. I am sure he will let you keep your toilet ... you will probably get to keep your toys too! I think the point he is trying to make is the system we have created for those who are struggling is making it worse. I worked for several years out of college as a social worker/case manager and many of my clients did not know life without government handouts. They grew up with in it. Their children grew up in it. It was a way of life. And it is a way of life that takes away hope for the future. I remember getting a client a $200 check to pay their electric bill (in addition to housing supplements, foodstamps, free daycare, disability for one family member, WIC and medicaid). It was Christmas time and I had secured donations for presents for the children based on their list to Santa. The electricity was turned off because she decided to use the check for the electric bill to buy an electric toy car that the four year old could drive! [&:] She said I could get the electricity back on for them. This was not an isolated incident. Very few of my clients embraced the goal of making it on their own, even though we could get them the grant money needed to go to college and learn a skill. They just didn't know how to dream ... and had no desire to try. (It may be because they didn't believe it was possible and were afraid to fail.) The point is, these families got use to staying at home, watching TV (Jerry Springer was often on when I came to visit ... I do not get that show at all!!![8D]) and letting others take care of them. It's easy to fall into that when it is all you know. Giving more is not the answer. We need to teach people to fish and quit giving them free fish. The welfare reform is a step in the right direction ... but I believe it may have been put into place too late. It is hard to change from not having to do anything to having to work ... and it takes tough love ... which is something a person can do for another ... but I am not sure that the same principle works for the government. The system as it stands has very few workers with extremely large case loads. Giving more IS NOT the answer. Teaching them that they can do it on their own and giving them the skills to go out there in the workforce is the only way to do it right. Wrapping our arms around them and encouraging them ... showing them the way, but not doing it for them is how we need to help. We need to stop being a country that enables those who are struggling by giving them a free ride and start teaching them how to pick themselves up and letting them do it on their own. We need to give them back their dignity in order to help them find their hope. When we just give ... though they may be fed, they will never learn to feed themselves ... and we keep them locked in a system that strips away their dignity.

Rufas2000 -> RE: Who is "the goverment" and what can it do? (9/7/2008 5:33:04 PM)
quote: you will probably get to keep your toys too! I better be able to keep my toys. Excellent post. I would add that this dependence on the government increases its power. And while obviously the government needs to have power to fulfill its function too much power becomes very dangerous

iluvatar -> RE: Who is "the goverment" and what can it do? (9/7/2008 5:45:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rufas2000 quote: you will probably get to keep your toys too! I better be able to keep my toys. Excellent post. I would add that this dependence on the government increases its power. And while obviously the government needs to have power to fulfill its function too much power becomes very dangerous That's true, but it's possible to go too far in the other direction. Somebody in another thread said something to the effect of "people will find a way to screw you over, regardless of whether they're in business or government." Over-regulation can stifle growth, but too much deregulation can be dangerous, too. Markets can run wild with speculation, consumer choice can be stifled through monopolies, and safety lapses can occur due to greed, incompetence, and poor oversight. -Dan.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Who is "the goverment" and what can it do? (9/7/2008 6:05:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: huangshan quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: huangshan There's a branch of philosophy and social science out there for the former question. As to the second, I would suggest that maximizing the available opportunities for every person (heavy investment in education, including retraining. Also, child care) and filling in as many cracks as possible for the people at the bottom (health care, some welfare), so they don't fall out and into a place they can never come back. This is, I think, the best way of "taking care of people". Actually it more a formula for creating a voting base that is reliant on the government till their last breath... Once you start making life easier for people, yeah, they tend to not want to go back to the hard life. I for one am glad for indoor plumbing and I am not ashamed to admit it. Those of you who can take pride in being able to use the leaf-and-hole strategy with gusto, well, my hat's off to you. I guess you'd not be ashamed that someone installed it for free and flushes it for you as well...

Rufas2000 -> RE: Who is "the goverment" and what can it do? (9/7/2008 7:09:31 PM)
quote: That's true, but it's possible to go too far in the other direction. Somebody in another thread said something to the effect of "people will find a way to screw you over, regardless of whether they're in business or government." Over-regulation can stifle growth, but too much deregulation can be dangerous, too. Markets can run wild with speculation, consumer choice can be stifled through monopolies, and safety lapses can occur due to greed, incompetence, and poor oversight. Absolutely. The free market can't be completely free, there does need to be some order. The balance is something which reasonable people can differ. My post was more in response to the idea of government handouts. If a society becomes too dependent on the government then the government becomes too powerful as the citizens will sacrifice some freedom for continued government assistance with food, clothing, shelter and other necessities.

huangshan -> RE: Who is "the goverment" and what can it do? (9/8/2008 12:09:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Psalms274 Giving more IS NOT the answer. Teaching them that they can do it on their own and giving them the skills to go out there in the workforce is the only way to do it right. Wrapping our arms around them and encouraging them ... showing them the way, but not doing it for them is how we need to help. We need to stop being a country that enables those who are struggling by giving them a free ride and start teaching them how to pick themselves up and letting them do it on their own. We need to give them back their dignity in order to help them find their hope. When we just give ... though they may be fed, they will never learn to feed themselves ... and we keep them locked in a system that strips away their dignity. Well as I said, my ideal focus would be on education and health care. I understand the situation you outline, but that strikes me as a failure of application rather than a failure of allocation. People need help, but they need the right kind of help. I also think the focus on the individual may often be a mistake in this case. Revitalizing and empowering communities is more vital, I think. I don't see the need to wean people off of health care and education.

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