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RE: Feminist - 9/7/2008 3:17:17 PM
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Harvie
Posts: 1219
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From: california
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I've lived in California most of my life, so my concept/definition of feminism is colored by my circumstances, my experiences, and my personal observations. (And from what I've read here, it seems that the "feminism" practiced widely in California is what many of you would call "extreme feminism")
In California, first and foremost many feminists are largely pro-choice, and take any attempt to legislate their rights to do whatever they want with their bodies (regardless of age), to be the worst form of evil, ever. And by pro-choice, I decidedly mean "pro-abortion."
In California, many feminists are also in favor of rights of gays/lesbians/homosexuals/transexuals and transgendered persons to have all rights and privilege traditionally afforded solely to heterosexual married couples ... including the right to wed, to adopt, etc.
In California, many feminists are anti-male patriarchy in any and every sense of the word, and believe that the biblical concept of a wife submitting to a husband to be (1) outdated; (2) slavery; (3) and absolutely wrong/evil.
An interesting side note is that many of the feminists I've encountered are (1) unmarried; or (2) divorced; or (3) lesbians/bisexual. Many also practice goddess-centric, non-christian faiths.
Needless to say, I'm no feminist.
_____________________________
 PRAISE THE LORD -- MY HUSBAND IS BACK FROM IRAQ
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RE: Feminist - 9/7/2008 4:10:09 PM
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Memaw.
Posts: 2357
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Sunflower State
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quote:
my concept/definition of feminism is colored by my circumstances, my experiences, and my personal observations
I think that is the way for most of us.
We only know what we experience and see.
quote:
Needless to say, I'm no feminist.
By those definitions, neither am I.
_____________________________
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.
Every generation has to learn how to protect and defend it, or it's gone
and gone for a long, long time."
Ronald Reagan
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RE: Feminist - 9/7/2008 4:34:55 PM
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linaire
Posts: 162
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From: UK, OK!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2
quote:
ORIGINAL: linaire
I think the distinction between "feminist" and "extreme feminist" is a helpful one. Ruth's excellent definition of feminism (seriously, it's like you read my mind  , give or take a couple of points) is something I'd identify with. I think we owe so much to the 'feminists' of the early twentieth century - I love that I have the vote, I love that I got to go to university, and I love my job (I teach). I also love that I can contribute to my society and help, and that as a single woman I have a voice. I'm unmarried at 27, so I have no husband to guide/support/partner me (yet...I'm hoping  ), and I'm way too old to be relying on my parents (IMO)...I love that through women's rights I can have a life that I love.
That said...extreme feminism scares me, and I think it's creating huge problems for both genders in the way we interact and deal with each other. Several of my acquaintance are man-hating feminists, and I know several men who are cowed and weak and unable to be the men they could be because of the women they are playing off. In both genders there's naturally a lot of difference between individuals (my best friends are a tomboy, and academic bookworm, and the girliest of girlies, for example), but I think extreme feminism has created a lot of issues between the sexes as groups.
I was waiting til there was someone I could quote and say "I agree with ___"........
so I agree with Claire....in every thing she said except the point of not being married, because I am. My hubby's personality is very passive and he can be easily overpowered....most of the time because he wants to be....so I try to work hard not to do that too much to him and give him a chance to make decisions and talk things out (even though seriously he would have no problem if he didn't make them or wasn't in the discussion.....his personality makes for a good soldier, cause he honestly just follows blindly orders given very easily). I have seen some women though that were extremist push over him, and it's very different in the way he reacts....he doesn't like it and you can tell. It is demoralizing to him and his personality definitely shows that when he is around women like that....it's interesting. Anyway, I too would categorize someone like that as an "extremist"...I do not like their stance, I think they not only demoralize men but also make a bad name for women too.....luckily there are far more of us in the "middle" and we kind of balance them out.
Woo! Someone quoted me 
In all seriousness though, it's nice to know I'm on the same page as others! 
_____________________________
"...everything you do must be done with love." 1 Corinthians 16: 14.
My blog: http://countrymouseclaire.blogspot.com/ --- come join the craziness!
~ Claire ~
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RE: Feminist - 9/7/2008 8:25:17 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2473
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From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisLamb26
I kind of like my right to vote-so I'm a feminist.
I kind of like the fact that I can open a bank account, maintain credit, and buy property on my own accord, regardless of my marital status-so I'm a feminist.
I kind of like the fact that I get paid the same money as my male peers-so I'm a feminist.
I kind of like the fact that I am both good at and well paid to work in a field formerly dominated by males-so I'm a feminist.
I kind of like the fact that I have a right to work in a place free of sexual harassment-so I'm a feminist.
I kind of like the fact that myself and my daughters have career and educational choices that were denied to my mother and grandmother-so I'm a feminist.
I kind of like the fact that I can get married and stay married because I want to, and not because it is the only way to keep a roof over my head, and keep me and my children fed-so I'm a feminist.
I kind of like the fact that violence against women that occurs in their homes is now considered a crime and not just a private family matter-so I'm a feminist.
I kind of like the fact the "old maid" and "spinster" are terms of derision no longer used to identify my single sisters-so I'm a feminist
I kind of like the fact I had access to birth control during my child bearing years-so I'm a feminist.
I can't help but find it interesting that so many women feast at the table that feminism won for them, yet vehemently deny being "feminists".
I hate the fact that men and women aren't paid equally for the same work. 
I remember when I was in sociology, my professor looked up and compared men's/women's wages for our university. I can't remember how big the gap was, but she claimed it was pretty decent... as compared to other gaps, I guess.
I agree with your last sentence. :)
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Feminist - 9/8/2008 3:05:13 PM
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Auben
Posts: 1615
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From: Where pines tower and cranberries float
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In my opinion feminism begins with the belief that men and women are equal mentally, physically, spiritually, economically, and legally. Therefore each should be afforded the same courtesy and opportunities as the other. The creation of feminism comes through the belief that this equality has not traditionally been shared by women, and that there continues to be inequality in some areas.
I think where people differ is more in degree and understanding of what feminism is. Many people think equality has been reached and are satisfied with society. Others feel there are areas where women have been held back and that there is more to do. Using 'feminist' as an active term has more to do with where you fall between those two beliefs.
I doubt there are many here who are against voting, legal rights, etc. The question then comes down to whether we are done with feminism and the term has no meaning (or it means extremism) or if we still need it today.
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Tamara
~Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time~
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RE: Feminist - 9/8/2008 3:14:55 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4989
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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Hmm, interesting points, Tamara. I guess I would be in the camp that doesn't see any areas where women still need to fight for equality.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Feminist - 9/8/2008 3:30:49 PM
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myka
Posts: 818
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I think that there are still areas that women are treated inequally.
My dad always taught me that I should never say I can't do something just because I was a girl and that has really impacted my view of myself and other women. However, I would never put men down in order to elevate women. Equality is not about gaining an advantage over another, but about being equal.
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RE: Feminist - 9/8/2008 3:32:49 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4989
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quote:
I think that there are still areas that women are treated inequally.
What areas would those be?
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RE: Feminist - 9/8/2008 3:35:29 PM
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landabee
Posts: 2852
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Central Florida
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I fall along the lines of what Sideways and HisLamb described.
I have been reading a bit online about whitewashed feminists. I won't put a link, because I suspect it may not be appreciated.
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"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: Feminist - 9/8/2008 3:41:28 PM
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myka
Posts: 818
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My dh has told me about his difficulties with a former boss who would only hire men for certain positions (dh disagreed with the boss, of course -- this was in the marketing field). There are other fields where it is difficult for men to succeed (early childhood/elementary education -- I think that there are certain discriminatory things going on there too). One of the big ones is religious related. Several of my woman friends have mentioned this to me (especially if they are seeking seminary education).
I guess I don't like seeing it happening toward anyone.
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RE: Feminist - 9/8/2008 3:54:13 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4989
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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Legally, in most situtations, discrimination is illegal. In the church, the goverment does not interfere because they realize that churches have a right to practice their religious beliefs, even if they may be considered discriminatory to some. Pastors give up their rights, so to speak, and can be fired or not hired for any reason. I agree that the government should not tell the church that they can't discriminate in hiring.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Feminist - 9/8/2008 4:15:51 PM
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myka
Posts: 818
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There are still ways to discriminate that are 'under the radar' so to speak.
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RE: Feminist - 9/8/2008 4:31:10 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
I think that there are still areas that women are treated inequally.
What areas would those be?
They still aren't paid the same. My Dad makes more then his female coworker, and they do pretty much the same job.
Male nurses may not technically be discriminated against, but they do take an awful lot of flack for being in a male dominated world.
Women aren't allowed certain jobs in the military, but that is one area of "discrimination" that I don't have a problem with...
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RE: Feminist - 9/8/2008 4:37:24 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2473
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From: I'm a Southern girl
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I think I've said the pay thing twice in the thread... but I really just don't get why that still is the way it is.
I've seen male nurses and nursing students get the odd look when they tell someone what they're career/future career is. I actually think some people I've seen see them as less masculine because of that.
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Feminist - 9/8/2008 5:37:20 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4989
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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quote:
I think I've said the pay thing twice in the thread... but I really just don't get why that still is the way it is.
Here's an interesting article that I think gives some good insight into that question.
LINK
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: Feminist - 9/8/2008 6:30:11 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 3717
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Legally, in most situtations, discrimination is illegal.
What is legal and what is practiced can often be worlds apart. I had a boss who was hostile to women, but he kept it just short of what could be proven in a court of law. After all, if the company fired him or punished him for sexual harassment, he could sue, and the company would have to prove that he'd harassed women.
Males have simply gotten sneakier about how to harass women in some cases. Although I will say that as a female in a male-dominated work place (before being a SAHM), he was the only one I could say was sexually harassing.
Overall, I had good experiences with the men I worked with, and I largely credit that to the pathways blazed by early feminists who were the first to go through an all-male engineering school and prove themselves as female engineers. Without them, I would not be where I am today. They took a lot of grief for doing what they did, and I am ever so proud to stand on the shoulders of those feminists.
My husband knows the salary of everyone he works with (pay is a matter of public record for his laboratory), and the women do make less, but dH partially thinks that because women are less aggressive when negotiating salary. A company will deliberately low-bid a female, often because they know she won't fire back. My dH did fire back, with a counter offer that made them squirm - but in the end, they wanted him and he got the salary he asked for.
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RE: Feminist - 9/8/2008 10:48:07 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10640
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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I know I'm not all that popular in this folder, but this topic interests me so I'm going to chime in.
I am one of those evil women who calls herself a feminist. It was a long road. The funny thing is, that it was actually a liberal, lesbian women's studies professor in college who first showed me that what we see on TV as radical feminists is only a very small segment and there are entire feminist movements that were just like me - conservative, pro-life and love and honor men. Sadly, this is like everything else in our culture - what makes the news isn't the mainline movement but rather the wacko people.
I finally decided, that I would not let a fringe group form the identity of something that started as something good and still can do much good.
I see this as no different that calling myself an evangelical Christian even though the ones who are in the "public eye" and make the news are usually whack jobs who wouldn't know Scripture if it hit them in the face. I see this as no different that proudly proclaiming my strong pro-life views even though the ones who make the news and get the attention are the psychos who bomb abortion clinics and shoot abortion doctors and wave large photos of aborted fetuses on public streets (I have a problem with that). I am not going to condemn all Christians for Fred Phelps. I am not going to condemn all pro-lifers for Eric Rudolph. I am going to condemn the crazies and proclaim the good - and what the movement should be about.
So do we still need feminism? When my 8th grade algebra teacher told us girls to study really well because girls simply don't get into higher math (funny, my AP calculus class in high school was mostly girls and most of the math majors in college I knew were women), I say yes. When groups try to suppress the reality of abortions - psychological, physical and spiritual because they find their cause more important than the women (and babies) suffering as a result of that cause, I say yes. When the #1 cause of death for pregnant women is murder, I say yes. When my boss can verbally abuse the women in his office and the only people to stand up to him are women, I say yes. When I can pass the same law enforcement testing process as men (even the physical) but people look at me like I must be un-qualified simply because I have boobs so I have to "prove" that I am capable whereas a guy is automatically assumed to be capable, I say yes. When women go to doctors for legitimate medical concerns and they tell them it's all in their head, I say yes. When women in labor are treated like children who can't make decisions regarding their care, I say yes. When a woman who stayed home to raise her kids tries to get back into the working force and is treated like the 18 year old who has never held a job, I say yes. When the courts let a guy off the hook for rape because the victim should have known better than to be alone at night, I say yes. When women's bodies are seen as nothing more than sexual satisfaction for men in porn, I say yes. When women can be whipped for daring to be seen in public with a male relative in some places in the world, I say yes.
So, the next time someone complains about all Christians being whackos and how hypocritical all pro-lifers are, just remember that you may be doing the same thing if you demonize all feminists because of the extremists who make the news (which is why they make the news by the way). And the next time someone uses the term fundamentalist or evangelical as a derogatory term, just remember that you may be doing the same thing if you use feminist as a derogatory term too.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "I worked as a Corporate Lesion."
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RE: Feminist - 9/8/2008 11:11:18 PM
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sisrev
Posts: 886
Joined: 8/7/2006
From: The South, ya'll
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
So, the next time someone complains about all Christians being whackos and how hypocritical all pro-lifers are, just remember that you may be doing the same thing if you demonize all feminists because of the extremists who make the news (which is why they make the news by the way). And the next time someone uses the term fundamentalist or evangelical as a derogatory term, just remember that you may be doing the same thing if you use feminist as a derogatory term too.
Thank you for this entire post.
From a pro-life, conservative, happily married feminist. And those are not contradictory terms.
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My new blog, A Virtuous Woman
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RE: Feminist - 9/9/2008 1:46:25 AM
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ChiefWannahakaloogie
Posts: 4810
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: under your bed
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ive learnt peoples definition of the word "feminist" is vastly varied.
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