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RE: Criticisms and Dirt on McCain? - 9/5/2008 10:33:44 PM
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Jhud
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And I thought you wanted to raise the tenor of the debate?
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Criticisms and Dirt on McCain? - 9/5/2008 10:34:48 PM
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solomonsprayer
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
And I thought you wanted to raise the tenor of the debate?
Legitimate concerns are ok. Just not a negative tone and vicious attack. A candidate's past is open to examination (e.g., the Jeremiah Wright issues). I didn't slur McCain right? ...This is a fact.
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RE: Criticisms and Dirt on McCain? - 9/5/2008 10:35:31 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7742
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Legitimate concerns are ok. Just not a negative tone and vicious attack. A candidate's past is open to examination. I didn't slur McCain right? ...This is a fact.
So is it a criticism or 'dirt'?
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Criticisms and Dirt on McCain? - 9/5/2008 10:36:26 PM
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solomonsprayer
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Wow, it's late. It seems I've created enough threads. 1 out of 3 threads here is by me!  .....Time to take a break.
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RE: Criticisms and Dirt on McCain? - 9/5/2008 10:37:31 PM
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solomonsprayer
Posts: 541
Joined: 8/1/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Legitimate concerns are ok. Just not a negative tone and vicious attack. A candidate's past is open to examination. I didn't slur McCain right? ...This is a fact.
So is it a criticism or 'dirt'?
Both I guess. Want me to change title? ....It may sound better.
Ok I will...
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RE: Criticisms and Dirt on McCain? - 9/5/2008 10:46:09 PM
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PhunkD
Posts: 217
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Legitimate concerns:
Serious anger issues.
Divorced and re-married.
Against his own legislation.
He was wrong on the Iraq war.
He has allowed quite a few lies in his own convention
Lack of a substantial economic plan.
In favor of continuing the Bush tax cuts, and most of Bush's other damaging policies.
He's a 72 year old man who has had cancer four times with an inexperienced VP.
Believe it or not, I LIKED the guy--would have voted for him had he got the nomination in 2000 and wanted him to run third party in 2004. But now? No way. He's changed for the worse, and on the two biggest issues (to me), the war and the economy--he is dead wrong.
Thanks for asking!
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RE: Fair Criticisms of McCain (Past and Present)? - 9/5/2008 10:50:13 PM
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saved9201
Posts: 712
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solomonsprayer
Since everyone loves McCain and is trashing Obama here,
That's because this is a Christian forum and thats what they do.
quote:
what are some legitimate concerns about McCain?
character- McCain has too much character. I bet nobody knows he was a prisoner of war in Vietnam once. He's just too honest and patriotic. He loves America TOO much. He loves the Lord sooooo much, it intimidates regular Christians.
qualifications - He's over qualified to be President. Is there a higher office he could run for?
on his plan for future (policies) - His policies are so awesome, that America my end up being sooooo great, everybody will want to come here. Other countries will just shut down and fire their leaders and ask McCain to be their president too.
- Julius
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RE: Criticisms and Dirt on McCain? - 9/5/2008 10:52:55 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 2118
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Sit in your nice comfy armchair and feel superior. And be glad that it wasn't you that spent those years in torture day after day as you watched your fellow Americans body's waste away until death released them from the hell their captors inflicted on them.
One of the men that I knew as I grew up was one of 3 people in an entire company that survived the nightmare of Iwo Jima. The blown up bodies and cries of the dying tortured him the rest of his life. So, I think we can cut him some slack for the fact that he always referred to the Japanese as 'Japs'.
You have NO idea what either of these men went through. And, I, for one, find it FAR more dispicable that you came back with this kind of sleaze. And, make no mistake about it... it was sleazy. It's probably the lowest thing I've seen up here. And, I don't care if saying so gets me banned for life. Right is right.
And, no, Matthew 6:14 is NOT talking about forgiveness leading to salvation. It is talking about hypocracy. That is, if you are committing a particular sin and yet you hold that same sin against someone else then you are not in a position to ask for forgiveness for that particular sin. While I agree that it is better for John McCain that he forgive his former captors, I doubt that he ever tortured people in like manner as he was tortured. So, OTHER Scriptures would have been more fitting.
quote:
ORIGINAL: solomonsprayer
Since everyone loves McCain and is trashing Obama here, what are some legitimate concerns about McCain?
i.) on character
ii.) on qualifications
iii.) on his plan for future (policies)
???
We can start with the old "gook" debacle:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/02/18/MN32194.DTL
(That's not nice...racism and hate. What about forgiveness mentioned in Bible? Forgive your enemies or you won't be forgiven by Christ either?)
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Fair Criticisms of McCain (Past and Present)? - 9/5/2008 10:53:05 PM
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solomonsprayer
Posts: 541
Joined: 8/1/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
quote:
ORIGINAL: solomonsprayer
Since everyone loves McCain and is trashing Obama here,
That's because this is a Christian forum and thats what they do.
[
No it's not. There are some people who are ideologues here, but not everyone is like that. Don't let their one-sidedness get to you.
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RE: Fair Criticisms of McCain (Past and Present)? - 9/5/2008 10:55:59 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 2118
Joined: 1/27/2007
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Just a few days ago, you seemed to be DEFENDING racism... Go figure.
http://forums.crosswalk.com/m_3777848/mpage_2/key_/tm.htm#3778248
quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
quote:
ORIGINAL: solomonsprayer
Since everyone loves McCain and is trashing Obama here,
That's because this is a Christian forum and thats what they do.
quote:
what are some legitimate concerns about McCain?
character- McCain has too much character. I bet nobody knows he was a prisoner of war in Vietnam once. He's just too honest and patriotic. He loves America TOO much. He loves the Lord sooooo much, it intimidates regular Christians.
qualifications - He's over qualified to be President. Is there a higher office he could run for?
on his plan for future (policies) - His policies are so awesome, that America my end up being sooooo great, everybody will want to come here. Other countries will just shut down and fire their leaders and ask McCain to be their president too.
- Julius
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Criticisms and Dirt on McCain? - 9/5/2008 10:56:35 PM
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solomonsprayer
Posts: 541
Joined: 8/1/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
Sit in your nice comfy armchair and feel superior. And be glad that it wasn't you that spent those years in torture day after day as you watched your fellow Americans body's waste away until death released them from the hell their captors inflicted on them.
One of the men that I knew as I grew up was one of 3 people in an entire company that survived the nightmare of Iwo Jima. The blown up bodies and cries of the dying tortured him the rest of his life. So, I think we can cut him some slack for the fact that he always referred to the Japanese as 'Japs'.
You have NO idea what either of these men went through. And, I, for one, find it FAR more dispicable that you came back with this kind of sleaze. And, make no mistake about it... it was sleazy. It's probably the lowest thing I've seen up here. And, I don't care if saying so gets me banned for life. Right is right.
And, no, Matthew 6:14 is NOT talking about forgiveness leading to salvation. It is talking about hypocracy. That is, if you are committing a particular sin and yet you hold that same sin against someone else then you are not in a position to ask for forgiveness for that particular sin. While I agree that it is better for John McCain that he forgive his former captors, I doubt that he ever tortured people in like manner as he was tortured. So, OTHER Scriptures would have been more fitting.
Maybe not, but we ought not give him a free-pass on that either. "Gook" is desensitized in the U.S. culture perhaps....not as bad as the "N" word, which if he used, no one would allow him into office. But just because he is a war hero doesn't mean it is above criticism.
I've never experienced hurt?.....I was beaten up for my skin color growing up before, mocked, and isolated from people where I lived. I've experienced pain too. Constantly threatend and harassed.
< Message edited by solomonsprayer -- 9/5/2008 11:19:30 PM >
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RE: Fair Criticisms of McCain (Past and Present)? - 9/5/2008 11:00:57 PM
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StephK
Posts: 2335
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
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Hit the archives and you will see that McCain was not most people's choice on this forum during the primaries. There is plenty of criticism about McCain.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Criticisms and Dirt on McCain? - 9/5/2008 11:01:04 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 2118
Joined: 1/27/2007
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I'm sorry that you endured hurt because of your skin color.
But, I can assure you that the level of your isolation, whatever it was, was so miniscule in comparison to what the Vietnamese captors did to John McCain and his fellow prisoners that if his torture were Mount Everett then yours would be a grain of sand.
quote:
ORIGINAL: solomonsprayer
quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
Sit in your nice comfy armchair and feel superior. And be glad that it wasn't you that spent those years in torture day after day as you watched your fellow Americans body's waste away until death released them from the hell their captors inflicted on them.
One of the men that I knew as I grew up was one of 3 people in an entire company that survived the nightmare of Iwo Jima. The blown up bodies and cries of the dying tortured him the rest of his life. So, I think we can cut him some slack for the fact that he always referred to the Japanese as 'Japs'.
You have NO idea what either of these men went through. And, I, for one, find it FAR more dispicable that you came back with this kind of sleaze. And, make no mistake about it... it was sleazy. It's probably the lowest thing I've seen up here. And, I don't care if saying so gets me banned for life. Right is right.
And, no, Matthew 6:14 is NOT talking about forgiveness leading to salvation. It is talking about hypocracy. That is, if you are committing a particular sin and yet you hold that same sin against someone else then you are not in a position to ask for forgiveness for that particular sin. While I agree that it is better for John McCain that he forgive his former captors, I doubt that he ever tortured people in like manner as he was tortured. So, OTHER Scriptures would have been more fitting.
Maybe not, but we ought not give him a free-pass on that either. "Gook" is desensitized in the U.S. culture perhaps....not as bad as the "N" word, which if he used, no one would allow him into office. But just because he is a war hero doesn't mean it is above criticism.
I've never experienced hurt?.....I was beaten for my skin color growing up all the time, mocked, and isolated from people where I lived. I've experienced pain too. Constantly threatend and harassed.
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Criticisms and Dirt on McCain? - 9/5/2008 11:03:28 PM
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solomonsprayer
Posts: 541
Joined: 8/1/2008
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TMeeks, you are still defending McCain. He is simply wrong in this area. That's all I can say.
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RE: Criticisms and Dirt on McCain? - 9/5/2008 11:06:07 PM
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solomonsprayer
Posts: 541
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TMeeks, I also don't think it's even fair to compre suffering to begin with. It's not a competition. Certainly, I can list all the racial slurs, physical abuse/intimidation, harrassment to my family, and hurt I've experienced growing up in the South, but I don't try to compare. It's not a competition that way.
All I can say is that McCain is wrong and should not try to justify it, because he suffered and was a war vet.
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RE: Criticisms and Dirt on McCain? - 9/5/2008 11:08:19 PM
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TMeeks
Posts: 2118
Joined: 1/27/2007
Status: offline
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These are legitimate kinds of things that can be discussed relatively rationally. For instance, it seems to me that it's fair game to explore the reports of anger issues and how they may or may not affect the presidency. But, 'dirt' is a very, very different direction to go.
quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
Legitimate concerns:
Serious anger issues.
Divorced and re-married.
Against his own legislation.
He was wrong on the Iraq war.
He has allowed quite a few lies in his own convention
Lack of a substantial economic plan.
In favor of continuing the Bush tax cuts, and most of Bush's other damaging policies.
He's a 72 year old man who has had cancer four times with an inexperienced VP.
Believe it or not, I LIKED the guy--would have voted for him had he got the nomination in 2000 and wanted him to run third party in 2004. But now? No way. He's changed for the worse, and on the two biggest issues (to me), the war and the economy--he is dead wrong.
Thanks for asking!
_____________________________
Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8 The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
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RE: Criticisms and Dirt on McCain? - 9/5/2008 11:11:38 PM
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solomonsprayer
Posts: 541
Joined: 8/1/2008
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I think racism is not dirt. The Americna people and McCain have tried to justify it and allow an exception for him. ...If I went to my job and lashed out at whites for the abuse they did to me and my mother and used racial slurs openly, I'd be fired.
Plus I also do not harbor resentment towards whites, nor blacks. I have forgiven. Certainly my watchig my mother suffer many indignities was the hardest being a small child and ont being able to defend her (against a group of racist white males). But even that I've forgiven.
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RE: Criticisms and Dirt on McCain? - 9/5/2008 11:14:43 PM
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solomonsprayer
Posts: 541
Joined: 8/1/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TMeeks
And, no, Matthew 6:14 is NOT talking about forgiveness leading to salvation. It is talking about hypocracy. That is, if you are committing a particular sin and yet you hold that same sin against someone else then you are not in a position to ask for forgiveness for that particular sin. While I agree that it is better for John McCain that he forgive his former captors, I doubt that he ever tortured people in like manner as he was tortured. So, OTHER Scriptures would have been more fitting.
I think the Bible does say specificaly if you do not forgive your enemies, you will also not be forgiven. How can there be hate in Heaven?
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RE: Criticisms and Dirt on McCain? - 9/5/2008 11:22:23 PM
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StephK
Posts: 2335
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solomonsprayer
I think racism is not dirt. The Americna people and McCain have tried to justify it and allow an exception for him. ...If I went to my job and lashed out at whites for the abuse they did to me and my mother and used racial slurs openly, I'd be fired.
Plus I also do not harbor resentment towards whites, nor blacks. I have forgiven. Certainly my watchig my mother suffer many indignities was the hardest being a small child and ont being able to defend her (against a group of racist white males). But even that I've forgiven.
HUH? He adopted a sick child from Bangladesh.
_____________________________
Stephanie
The heart of the wise inclines to the right but the heart of the fool to the left.
Even as he walks along the road, the fool lacks sense and shows everyone how stupid he is. ~ Ecc. 10:2-3
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RE: Criticisms and Dirt on McCain? - 9/5/2008 11:33:20 PM
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solomonsprayer
Posts: 541
Joined: 8/1/2008
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To be fair, McCain eventually agreed to stop using the racist slur and apologized to those he hurt.
“I will continue to condemn those who unfairly mistreated us,” McCain said in a statement released Feb. 21. “But out of respect to a great number of people for whom I hold in very high regard, I will no longer use the term that has caused such discomfort… I apologize and renounce all language that is bigoted and offensive, which is contrary to all that I represent and believe.”
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RE: Criticisms and Dirt on McCain? - 9/6/2008 12:16:38 AM
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Rufas2000
Posts: 1319
Joined: 4/12/2005
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So to summarize: he used a term that is derogatory to Asians (presumably more than once), said he would stop using the offending term, renounced the use of all bigoted language and apologized for using it.
Ummm ... OK?
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Be my friend!
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RE: Criticisms and Dirt on McCain? - 9/6/2008 1:06:34 AM
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solomonsprayer
Posts: 541
Joined: 8/1/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rufas2000
So to summarize: he used a term that is derogatory to Asians (presumably more than once), said he would stop using the offending term, renounced the use of all bigoted language and apologized for using it.
Ummm ... OK?
I think the insensitive nature of this comment (not even the slightest hint of shock or sympathy towards Asian Americans who were hurt by the slur) and double-standard analysis/reaction is indicative of the bias I see here from many posters.
First, McCain used "gook" over and over and over and over and refused to repent and stop (this was when he was up for Presidential nomination in 2000). He defied critics saying he had the right to use it, given his experience and that it was to speicifcally refer to his captors. Despite being told it was offensive, he still said he would not stop. He felt his war suffering gave him the free-pass to use that slur. He said that it was the nicest thing he could think of to refer to his captors. Yet, he did not see how Asian Americans in the country might be offended and hurt by it...Those who've suffered racial abuse and whose memories of pain are triggered by such terms were certainly sensitive to it (words which have been historically used to humilate, intimidate, and degrade racial minorities).
I agree his expeience was unimaginably painful. I don't even completely blame him for his anger and slur as a kind of natural (even if wrong) human response. But what I think once you are told how offensive it is to others, you should have the judgment to stop and realize what you've done. He did not.
It took much media hounding before he finally relented. Like many have said, if he said the "N" word over and over, who in America would allow him to represent them as a Presidential candidate in 2000? ...There is an desensitization towards Asian slurs that allowed many to ignore or downplay his racial slurs. On top of that, there was the white privilege and American war hero exemption.
We can use the media's treatment of Barack Obama as an example. The media has hounded his pastor for saying similarly damaging things about whites. Why don't people bring up McCain's past? Why can't whites try to be more understanding of the living hell African Americans went through in this country, being dragged and separated from their families from AFrica into America. Forced to endure slavery, rape, separation of family, lynching, depravation of education, poverty, Jim Crow, racial intimidation, etc. etc. etc.!
Why can't they look at Obama's pastor and see if they can begin to remotely understand what Blacks have gone through and the legacy that racism has played in shaping the lives of so many African Americans historically and to this day and see why Jeremiah Wright might have used the offensive statements he did? I'm not a Wright supporter at all. But I see the double standard.
Yes,...so a white war hero John McCain suffered in Vietnam and so he gets a pass to use a racial slur whenver he wants. ...Jeremiah Wright cannot (on behalf of Black suffering). I think both shouldn't use slurs. But I see a double standard in reaction and outrage. There is a kind of white privilege used here. Whites are more human than others. Their actions are justified more easily and their suffernig counts more.
If we apply the same standard of scrutiny to John McCain as we do others, we can clearly see he was wrong and this was a character flaw for a long-time. If Barack Obama called whites "crackers" and refused to repent, because he suffered in some torturous way, no one would accept that.
Do you see the white privilege and double standard in this situation? I think John McCain was honorable to repent and apologize to all Asians Americans in the country just as I think Obama was honorable to repudiate Jeremiah Wright. But that does not mean we should not take a look at these things to see how the charcter of our candidates developed over time and also face the reality of multiple oppressions in this nation and understand how to break free of them (which means learning to see people of all backgrounds as part of a larger humanity that is equal in rights, equal in the value of their suffering, and equal in opposition towards oppression - in this case racial oppression).
< Message edited by solomonsprayer -- 9/6/2008 2:12:31 AM >
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RE: Criticisms and Dirt on McCain? - 9/6/2008 2:22:41 AM
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Rufas2000
Posts: 1319
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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Nothing insensitive about the comment. You should note that I took great care in not using the offensive term, that was no accident. It made my post "wordier" and I hate that but it was well worth it in this circumstance. I have decried discrimination in all forms before on this forum and will do so again if needed. This happened eight years ago. He admitted he was wrong and presumably has not done it since (or I'm sure you would have mentioned it). So I don't see the relevance now. Show me he did it last week and it's a different story.
quote:
If Barack Obama called whites "crackers" and refused to repent, because he suffered in some tortorous way, no one would accept that.
If Obama had called whites "crackers" and refused to repent for a time but had since repented eight years ago and did not use it since I would absolutely accept his repentance and defend him on these forums in the same way that I defended McCain. If you looked at my post history you would see that I have defended Obama from charges that have more relevance than this.
< Message edited by Rufas2000 -- 9/6/2008 2:29:57 AM >
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Be my friend!
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RE: Criticisms and Dirt on McCain? - 9/6/2008 2:51:07 AM
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solomonsprayer
Posts: 541
Joined: 8/1/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Rufas2000
Nothing insensitive about the comment. You should note that I took great care in not using the offensive term, that was no accident. It made my post "wordier" and I hate that but it was well worth it in this circumstance. I have decried discrimination in all forms before on this forum and will do so again if needed. This happened eight years ago. He admitted he was wrong and presumably has not done it since (or I'm sure you would have mentioned it). So I don't see the relevance now. Show me he did it last week and it's a different story.
quote:
If Barack Obama called whites "crackers" and refused to repent, because he suffered in some tortorous way, no one would accept that.
If Obama had called whites "crackers" and refused to repent for a time but had since repented eight years ago and did not use it since I would absolutely accept his repentance and defend him on these forums in the same way that I defended McCain. If you looked at my post history you would see that I have defended Obama from charges that have more relevance than this.
I see. If you are dismissive of the issue, because of McCain's genuine repentance and length of time since it happened, that is fine. My initial reaction was to think you wre blowing it off, because you thought McCain's comments at the time were not that bad and justifiable due to his suffering. That is a common reaction. I apologize if I lumped you in with that group who feel that way.
Perhaps it is a bit too old of news to drag up again. Nevertheless, there may be some interest in seeing the development of various politicians character through trial. But to be sure, I, like you, do not think it is a good idea to rehash old and repented of sins. Perhaps this is better left in the past for the purpose of healing.
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