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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/23/2008 8:01:11 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
So perfect wrath is due penalty, and due penalty is being given over to a depraved mind? Are there people with depraved minds who change their ways and turn their lives around?
Hi, i'm raising my hand.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/23/2008 12:29:50 PM
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dyluck
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
quote:
I see people writing things that discredit the rest of the bible. This really upsets me.
It says that the Lake of Fire is ETERNAL multipule times in the bible.
And it upsets me that most Christians see anything other then eternal torment and eternal wrath as discrediting the bible. Wrath is just one part of God's character but so is love and mercy. In fact John said God is LOVE therefore that would be his dominant attribute since he is LOVE.
And as we discussed some bible translations don't translate "aionios" as eternal and for good reason.
Yes God is love and his love is Perfect. Along with all his other atributes. How can you say that his Love is more perfect (greater) then the other? I don't find anywhere in the bible where it says that there is greater (or lesser) atributes to God then others. (please clarify if you find any).
Perfection is absolute. How can you say his love is greater then his grace or greater then his mercy or greater then his justice or greater or his wrath???
the concequence of Sin is God's wrath. It says in the bible that God's wrath "looms" over them... SCARY... This is the same God that created stars so large, you can't even compare our sun to it's size.
Deuteronomy 4:24
For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.
Deuteronomy 4:31
For the LORD your God is a merciful God; he will not abandon or destroy you or forget the covenant with your forefathers, which he confirmed to them by oath.
Deuteronomy 7:9
Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands.
2 Thessalonians 1:6
God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you
Isaiah 30:18
Yet the LORD longs to be gracious to you; he rises to show you compassion. For the LORD is a God of justice. Blessed are all who wait for him!
I can Keep going.
All atributes of God are perfect because God is Perfect in every single way. I believe Gods perfection is not something that we could clock in time, but resolves in eternity. We can not, nor never could comprehend the vastness of God. Even Lucifer clearly couldn't comprehend God's vastness when he decided to transgress God.
I just think that there doesn't need to be a divine sacrifice for a temporary separation from God. I believe a divine sacrifice for an eternal separation from God.
If some people want to entertain "pergatory" (i can't find it anywhere in the bible). WAY more proof lies on "forever or ever lasting" then "age or temporary atonement".
If we could have paid for our own sins in Hell, there is no need for Christ to Die. Jesus is the only one that could overcome the wrath of God because he is God. He went to hell, and came out of it and rose from the Dead. He defeated death and destroyed the devil's work. NO ONE ELSE CAN OR COULD EVER DO THAT. The Lake of Fire is everlasting separation from God.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/23/2008 12:37:25 PM
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dyluck
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
quote:
So perfect wrath is due penalty, and due penalty is being given over to a depraved mind? Are there people with depraved minds who change their ways and turn their lives around?
Hi, i'm raising my hand.
And on this one too:
2 Timothy 3:8
Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these men oppose the truth—men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected.
Only belief in Jesus and the holy spirit's supernatual renewing of mind (repentance / regeneration) can change a man's heart from stone to flesh. Can open eyes of a depraved mind. If their their hearts didn't change and turn to God, then they are "Rejected". You cannot be able to accept the gift of salvation without Faith in Jesus Christ.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/23/2008 1:03:00 PM
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abraxas
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When I read 2 Timothy 3 from the start I'm not really sure who that chapter is referring to. Someone pretty awful, since it implies that that type doesn't exist at the time the person is writing, but will in the "last days".
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/23/2008 2:27:01 PM
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Him4all
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
When I read 2 Timothy 3 from the start I'm not really sure who that chapter is referring to. Someone pretty awful, since it implies that that type doesn't exist at the time the person is writing, but will in the "last days".
Paul says "in the last days" in vs 1 and then in vs 5 he tells Timothy to "avoid such people". We aren't talking about the 'end of the age', but 'old carnal minded believers'. In context it speaks of people who have become steeped in rebellion as believers...just like Jannes and Jambres who were believers/Jews and not unbelievers/Gentiles. They were churchgoers who always studied but never walked in truth (vs7). People who have "a form of godliness" (Sunday/superficial Christians) but "deny the power" (carnal in their daily walk). All people who are 'so hardened', are in their last days of aionios life in this age.
DR
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/23/2008 5:24:48 PM
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dyluck
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We were born depraved, sinful and God hating though.
It is just an example about how a whole life in depravity can be linked to rejection. No matter if this is regarding the end times or not, mankind is depraved.
It really links to Romans 1 and what result is to generations past those that actually knew the truth yet worshiped idols and other Gods instead. This is what point I was trying to make here.
Ultimately God makes the judgement in the end, but the bible leans more toward no heaven for those who in generations have rejected him. Look what happened in the flood... 1 family made it through.
How many people were on the planet at the time?!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/23/2008 7:31:25 PM
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theredhog
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I have been watching this thread for a while now and thought I'd add a thought or two. I don't believe there has to be a difference in God's wrath and His love per se. Perhaps His wrath is BECAUSE of His love for the people He created.
Because Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 15 that Christ will reign until everything is in subjection to Him, I see God's wrath as a motivator for people to come to the end of themselves, which, I also believe, that one absolutely must do, to bow the knee or confess Christ as Lord.
John 3:36 talks about the wrath of God abiding on those who do not believe. I think it says something like the one who does not believe will not see life. Jesus also said the one who does not believe is already condemned...John 3: 17- 18?? I think we are so programmed to see what we have been taught to see that we overlook the obvious. The scripture in John just says the one who does not believe will not see life. But, it does not say that one will NEVER believe. So, before I bowed my knee to Christ, I suppose God's wrath was abiding on me. According to Jesus I was in a condemned state then. But, I didn't stay there.
For one to stay in a rebellious state against the Lord seems to definitely contradict John 12:32 and 1 Corinthians 15. John...being where Jesus said He would draw ALL to Himself if He was lifted up on the cross. And, 1 Cor 15 where Paul said Christ will reign untill ALL are in subjection to Him. Not to mention what Paul said in Acts 17 about God's commands all men to repent.
redhog
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/24/2008 9:23:04 AM
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theredhog
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Dyluck,
quote:
quote:
For one to stay in a rebellious state against the Lord seems to definitely contradict John 12:32 and 1 Corinthians 15. John...being where Jesus said He would draw ALL to Himself if He was lifted up on the cross. And, 1 Cor 15 where Paul said Christ will reign untill ALL are in subjection to Him. Not to mention what Paul said in Acts 17 about God's commands all men to repent.
Can you elaberate on this more?
I can tell you what it means to me :) The scriptures I posted seem to indicate all of creation ending up in Christ then being given to God, whose it was to begin with. I don't have the reference handy now, but Paul said, I think in Romans 11, "Of Him, through Him and to Him are all things. That seems more like something that God would do.
Sticking with the topic, Hell seems to be the consequences of our actions, not all people..just the ones who are supposed to be chosen of God, for the purpose of "holding our feet to the fire" pun intended, until we are willing to lay down our self preservation and our will to bow to One who is greater.
To say some of humanity will remain in a state of experiencing God's wrath, to me, just looks like it does not agree with the purpose of God, shown in the scriptures.
John 12:31-33 31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
1 Corinthiams 15: 25-28 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Ephesians 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, F1 and which are on earth; even in him:
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
I see the reason Jesus was given the name above all names. He was the One who made/is making it all happen.
redhog
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/24/2008 11:01:03 AM
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theredhog
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Here is one more example of the churchworld believing one thing while the Bible seems to teach something contrary. I left out name so as not to be contrary...just use as an example.
"
So, you're saying that if I'm a unrepented sinner and I die that way, that I can repent later somehow and be saved?"
Compare with Acts 17:30 .In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. NIV
I know we were taught that Hebrews 9:27 means one you die, that's it..no chance for repentance. But it only says, then the "judgment" ..the judgment(decision as to reward/punishment) is to be made then. Judgment doesn't necessarily = eternity in Hell.
If God commands all people to repent and that doesn't take place before death, it stands to reason that it will take place after it. Matthew 23:39 seems to speak of the same thing.
redhog
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/25/2008 8:31:17 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
I know we were taught that Hebrews 9:27 means one you die, that's it..no chance for repentance. But it only says, then the "judgment" ..the judgment(decision as to reward/punishment) is to be made then. Judgment doesn't necessarily = eternity in Hell.
Spot on redhog! The greek word for judgment is "krisis" which is where the english word "crisis" comes from. Usually if we get through a crisis , we learn and grow and make strides.
Rev 22.17 "The Spirit and Bride say , Come all who thirst and drink from the water of life."
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/25/2008 9:29:03 AM
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theredhog
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quote:
"The Spirit and Bride say , Come all who thirst and drink from the water of life."
Amen, Steve...
Knowing all the scriptures, even the scary ones, have their place and are all designed to bring people to the end of themselves is such a comfort. They all fit together for one purpose. To take all the "endless Hell" scriptures by themselves without balancing them with the rest that speak of Christ restoring and reconciling all to Himself, leaves a pretty bleak picture.
redhog
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/25/2008 9:47:08 AM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
We were born depraved, sinful and God hating though.
It is just an example about how a whole life in depravity can be linked to rejection.
We were just born in sin; depravity and God hating is taught, because Adam in the beginning walked with God, so that first part or the longing to walk with God is inbred in us in the mothers womb, our children learn either to love or to hate God by those who love or hate him.
Ex 20:5 - Show Context
you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the "iniquity"... of the fathers... on the children ...to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me
LG
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Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/25/2008 11:49:38 AM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theredhog
Here is one more example of the churchworld believing one thing while the Bible seems to teach something contrary. I left out name so as not to be contrary...just use as an example.
"
So, you're saying that if I'm a unrepented sinner and I die that way, that I can repent later somehow and be saved?"
Compare with Acts 17:30 .In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. NIV
I know we were taught that Hebrews 9:27 means one you die, that's it..no chance for repentance. But it only says, then the "judgment" ..the judgment(decision as to reward/punishment) is to be made then. Judgment doesn't necessarily = eternity in Hell.
If God commands all people to repent and that doesn't take place before death, it stands to reason that it will take place after it. Matthew 23:39 seems to speak of the same thing.
redhog
Greetings,
quote:
I know we were taught that Hebrews 9:27 means you die, that's it..
no chance for repentance.
But it only says, then the "judgment" ..the judgment(decision as to reward/punishment) is to be made then. Judgment doesn't necessarily = eternity in Hell.
Greetings
Let me know if I am off a little here...
…..Paul.. in Hebrews 9 used the word judgment as a whole in the past tense as it related to the first part of the statement, here is the meaning explained a little easier…
. Heb 9:27 - Show Context
And as it is appointed “for” men…
Ro 5:12 - Show Context
Therefore, just as through “one man” sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread “to all men,” = …(And as it is appointed “for” men)…to die once, but after this the judgment,
It actually says “And as it is which means… (it’s been) "appointed" for man to die once, and the phrase.. And as it is… is the past tense…..and I believe that was speaking of the spiritual death of Adam in the beginning, based on 1 reason
In that context Paul speaking of spiritual death because physical death came though spiritual death.... so the root of the problem is spiritual death and it cannot be speaking of physical death, because “the flesh” simply profits nothing.
The appointment was already given in the beginning with Gods command, in Gen 2:17
Now if we look at how the scripture uses the issue; it is a spiritual one... and the scriptures refer it to a process... in that …what comes “from the ground (earth) has to pass trough a root and from the root… as a tree; which brings forth the fruits thereof
And the opposite is also true for that which comes from above; as opposed from the earth
…Joh 8:23
John the Baptist after accusing the religious leaders; accusing them as a “tree” that produced bad fruit, said in Mt 3:10 .........And even now the ax is laid to the root of the "trees" (meaning 2) because Christ was now in the world!
... Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit.>.Means>(the)(bad)> fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
…….So that is why John used the word tree in plural, in reference to the root
Because Christ was near; and now there will be 2 judgments’ and 2 such fruits
1 is the judgment seat of Christ...
2 is the great white throne judgment,
The meaning of the ax is judgment, And the judgment (ax) that is laid at the root ( or that which draws from beneath; or from above), is laid at the root of the “trees” (plural) which means the judgment is the same eternity for both, so Paul used the word judgment correctly in Heb 9
quote:
Judgment doesn't necessarily = eternity in Hell.
Yes ...it does....
Lets see whose going where..
John 8:21
Then Jesus said to them again, "I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin . ...Where I go you cannot come.
“and in like manner God will chastise His own but we are not going to die in our sin
So as to bring forth good fruit;
Because….
Jude 1:24
Now…. to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling ,
“And” = (2 parts)….
to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen
it’s either one ….”Where I go you (they) "cannot" come."
or the other....
John 14:2
In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you.
I go to prepare a place “for you".
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again “and” (2 parts) “receive you”… to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/25/2008 3:24:54 PM
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frankman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theredhog
If God commands all people to repent and that doesn't take place before death, it stands to reason that it will take place after it. Matthew 23:39 seems to speak of the same thing.
redhog
Your right in that all people will someday bow their knees before Jesus (Phil.2:10), but that does not mean all will be saved.  What do you think about these verses from Luke 13:3+5, pacifically the word PERISH?
"I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."
Now we know we will all die physically. So the "perish" word here must mean more then just physical death, but must mean eternal judgment, because if you repent, you will not perish but live, meaning heaven at last.
 So could "LoyalGypsy" be right after all when saying "Yes... it ... does;; Judgment does mean eternal hell for the unbeliever.
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"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/25/2008 5:16:31 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
Now we know we will all die physically. So the "perish" word here must mean more then just physical death, but must mean eternal judgment, because if you repent, you will not perish but live, meaning heaven at last.
The normal meaning of perish means to cease to exist and in fact the eternal judgment can be that you cease to exist eternally.
The lake of fire may cause some or many to cease to exist but i think scripture allows for the possibility of a better result.
For example if everyone will confess Jesus as Lord , the word "confess" is a voluntary gesture therefore God will not crack anyone's knees to make this confession. And why would God want this confession from folks, just to destroy them afterwards or to eternally torment them? Is this what Jesus preached?
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/25/2008 11:14:40 PM
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bob97
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You do know Steve that your position is very much in the minority don't you. I'm sure you’re very much aware of this and I’m sure my telling you will not dissuade you in anyway but I felt I had to make the statement. 
Bob
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The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/26/2008 8:53:37 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
You do know Steve that your position is very much in the minority don't you. I'm sure you’re very much aware of this and I’m sure my telling you will not dissuade you in anyway but I felt I had to make the statement.
Yes i know Bob and truth be told i'm not trying to convince anyone of my view of hell , i only would like it known that other views exist.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/26/2008 2:30:39 PM
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bob97
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Steve…here is my problem with your position. Let’s say you are wrong in saying that hell does not exist and that at some point everyone will be saved. It seems to me that you are leading potential Christians down an incorrect path. Most sinners are reluctant in giving up their life styles and adapting to something that they fear (Christian life style). Then they look at your view point and suddenly they can say…well if I’m going to be saved anyway and hell doesn’t even exist…what do I have to be afraid of, I’ll just continue the way I am.
There are two potential results from you’re being wrong. You can lose favor with God but more importantly you prevent others from coming to Christ.
I argue a lot of different point of the bible but I never dispute anything I think would affect the salvation of another.
If I approach anything that appears could disrupt another’s salvation decision…I keep to myself.
In this case, I can’t say definitely that you are incorrect in your position. In my opinion you are wrong and you are wrong compared to 99% of other believers in the body of Christ.
Seems pretty serious to me.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/26/2008 3:14:35 PM
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LoyalGypsy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Steve…here is my problem with your position. Let’s say you are wrong in saying that hell does not exist and that at some point everyone will be saved. It seems to me that you are leading potential Christians down an incorrect path. Most sinners are reluctant in giving up their life styles and adapting to something that they fear (Christian life style). Then they look at your view point and suddenly they can say…well if I’m going to be saved anyway and hell doesn’t even exist…what do I have to be afraid of, I’ll just continue the way I am.
There are two potential results from you’re being wrong. You can lose favor with God but more importantly you prevent others from coming to Christ.
I argue a lot of different point of the bible but I never dispute anything I think would affect the salvation of another.
If I approach anything that appears could disrupt another’s salvation decision…I keep to myself.
In this case, I can’t say definitely that you are incorrect in your position. In my opinion you are wrong and you are wrong compared to 99% of other believers in the body of Christ.
Seems pretty serious to me.
Bob
Greetings
quote:
well if I’m going to be saved anyway and hell doesn’t even exist…what do I have to be afraid of, I’ll just continue the way I am.
Actually Bob you were being kind of liberal, saying, I’ll just continue the way I am.
Let me explain…
In the mind of man the though process that believes their going to be saved anyway is spoken of by Jesus as a house that is swept clean; it is a false peace
And if we read the context of that situation; a person who believes that will be 7 times worse than just believing that they can just continue the way they are.... It doesn’t work that way... I wish it did, would make it a little easier....but not according to the creator of the universe.
Matt
43 "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order.
45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation."
43 "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, “seeking rest” and finds none.
All this is speaking of.. is false peace,
45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with “this wicked generation”."
When Jesus said in v 45 …”this wicked generation”, it means any generation that does those things…
If we read Luke 11:23-28 in verse 27 a women got that revelation and we see what Jesus said in verse 28 to her that verifies all that was just said here.
28 …But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!"
Its not enough to know that one may be saved, or praise God as the women did....we have to keep it!!!
To sum it up between both Matt and Luke…
SO… these passages are speaking of... false peace, and any generation that does that thing…that comes from seeking “another way” to God.
It’s speaking of false peace; which is temporary…whereby any generation that does those things…and is not “filled with the word” of God…will not be blessed, and will be 7 times worse.
Actually that is the very spirit spoken of which causes the end times scenarios’.
And if you want an example in progress, watch Oprah Winfrey! 
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/26/2008 7:58:10 PM
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bob97
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quote:
Actually Bob you were being kind of liberal, saying
Wow LG...I thinks that the first time in my life that anyone ever referred to me as liberal.
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/26/2008 11:25:58 PM
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raivyne
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The lake of fire is eternal. Those with the nature of satan will be thrown into it with him... believers or no.
I used to think to myself that hell was really just seperation from Christ in the ever after and how far you were seperated from him depended on how bad you were. I found everything I could (bible references and essays) to support my theory because it made me feel better about the life I was living (or had lived). I had various other theories and justifications for why I, Leanne, was NOT going to perish in eternal hell.
There was always this little small voice in me screaming "wrong" and I believe now 100% that the small still voice was right. Now I am determined that I will not be cast into the lake of fire, but not because I'm deceiving myself - because I've repented and am standing upright.
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P.U.S.H. – Pray Until Something Happens
What if God is asking us for a sign?
Knowledge is proud; wisdom is humble.
Patiently waiting for my KSA
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/27/2008 9:17:49 AM
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steve7150
Posts: 214
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Steve…here is my problem with your position. Let’s say you are wrong in saying that hell does not exist and that at some point everyone will be saved. It seems to me that you are leading potential Christians down an incorrect path. Most sinners are reluctant in giving up their life styles and adapting to something that they fear (Christian life style). Then they look at your view point and suddenly they can say…well if I’m going to be saved anyway and hell doesn’t even exist…what do I have to be afraid of, I’ll just continue the way I am.
Bob, Perhaps i was'nt clear before? Hell does exist and it's scary and i'm afraid of it and i don't want to go there.
But God said evil would be destroyed (Rom 8) and if sinners are eternally in hell evil will not be destroyed only contained.
I don't know if everyone will be saved or not but many folks in the lake of fire may be there for hundreds,thousands or even millions of years. It may be that for all practical purposes the length of time may feel eternal.
But this is just a mystery only God really knows.
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