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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/5/2008 8:51:14 AM
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Dubya
Posts: 1033
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
It plays in Peoria. Meaning the state of the curren educational system and the media has the mind-numbed masses with no understanding of the free market! They are simply playing to the vast ignorance of the American public!
So, IOW, it's grandstanding to get votes because the investigation would appeal to the seeming infraction upon the public?
Yep. Just like when Congress calls for investigation of Big Oil for price gouging. It plays good on the public but has no substance.
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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/5/2008 9:03:22 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
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Just caught the market report on CNN. Doesn't look good. Unemployment is the highest it's been at 6.8%
Were we discussing that on this thread?
_____________________________
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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/5/2008 2:57:11 PM
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mapachito13
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quote:
ORIGINAL: colliefan
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
I'm just curious then why both Obama and McCain are calling for investigations into the speculators, if they aren't responsible for the rising costs.
It plays in Peoria. Meaning the state of the curren educational system and the media has the mind-numbed masses with no understanding of the free market! They are simply playing to the vast ignorance of the American public!
Free markets do not and CAN NOT exist. If government doesn't do some responsible regulation of the markets then we return to the days of the monopoly. Its a great game but it is not consumer friendly!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/5/2008 4:42:25 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10977
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Supply and demand folks...
quote:
The oil market is starting to suffer from oversupply, the Libyan National Oil Corporation (NOC) chairman said on Friday, days before a key OPEC meeting on crude output levels.
"The market is well served and has even started to suffer from oversupply," said Shukri Ghanem, who also acts as the country's oil minister, adding that the Organisation of Oil Exporting Countries (OPEC) aimed to balance supply and demand.
"Prices have lowered and the supply is exceeding demand. The role of OPEC is to maintain the balance," he told AFP ahead of a meeting of the oil cartel in Vienna on Tuesday.
Guess which way they want the price to go?
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/5/2008 4:51:11 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
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I swear, everytime we turn around, there is some kind of new report, that we are either having an oil shortage and now we have an oversupply.
So which is it really. I really don't believe that with all the conflicting information out there I can be convinced that market manipulation is not happening.
It seems as though there will always be some sort of excuse as to why the cost has to raise.
Such as the idiotic report that China and India over the summer had an increase in oil usage. As if the people living in those countries just discovered the car or birthed driving adults.
It's beyond ridiculous.
I realize that I am not the most educated when it comes to the gas market, however I'm not a complete idiot either. These excuses just don't have the ring of truth to them.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/6/2008 4:10:26 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
It plays in Peoria. Meaning the state of the curren educational system and the media has the mind-numbed masses with no understanding of the free market! They are simply playing to the vast ignorance of the American public!
So, IOW, it's grandstanding to get votes because the investigation would appeal to the seeming infraction upon the public?
Yep. Just like when Congress calls for investigation of Big Oil for price gouging. It plays good on the public but has no substance.
Then why do the oil cartels find it necessary to restrict supply when the price of oil falls in order to manipulate the price higher. So where is the "free market" here?
Here is a link to an article about the history of crude oil prices and the impact of various situations upon them. It makes for interesting reading. Texas gave OPEC the idea to restrict supply to inflate prices. Thanks Texas!
"OPEC was formed in 1960 with five founding members Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Venezuela. Two of the representatives at the initial meetings had studied the the Texas Railroad Commission's methods of influencing price through limitations on production."
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/6/2008 9:33:37 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
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This quote from the article you posted, sounds eerily familiar:
"The one year lag between crude prices and rig count disappeared in the 1986 price collapse. For the next few years the economy of the towns and cities in the oil patch was characterized by bankruptcy, bank failures and high unemployment."
It seems from the article that there are several factors that contribute to the price increase of oil. And I'm still convinced that market mainipulation in fact does occur. Wars do contribute to this effect.
When the output of production is controlled as to whether it is increased or decreased, we have a market manipulation. The controller of this is OPEC.
That does not excuse the speculators because they to contribute to the problem.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/6/2008 11:35:36 AM
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letusreason
Posts: 808
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: letusreason
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
It makes no sense for an attack at this time. But His Excellency is not known for logic.
Any military action is likely going to be done by Israel. But an attack might actually bolster the current Iranian regime by "proving" to the citizens that they really are going to be invaded.
Is that based on the intelligence you have gathered or the CIA? or...do you work for the CIA?
No, I'm a rocket scientist.
Ok it took me a while but I have one finally.
Shouldn't you be discussing the rockets used in the attack and not the logistics?
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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/6/2008 1:28:26 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2743
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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The discussion about market influence is partially off-topic in a thread about an attack on IRAN. But....
quote:
So, IOW, it's grandstanding to get votes because the investigation would appeal to the seeming infraction upon the public?
Yep. Its about the total ignorance of the American public about the dynamics of the market. More people know the winner of American Idol
than the dynamics of supply and demand.
quote:
Such as the idiotic report that China and India over the summer had an increase in oil usage. As if the people living in those countries just discovered the car or birthed driving adults .
Remember these two nations are among the largest in the world. Also, in an effort to jump-start their economies their governments have been subsidizing the cost of gasoline. China has done this big-time to get ready for the Olympics.
quote:
Then why do the oil cartels find it necessary to restrict supply when the price of oil falls in order to manipulate the price higher. So where is the "free market" here?
The Cartels are in business to make a profit. We (USA) do not have a free market simply because of the complete refusal to drill for ANY of our own oil. The proposed drill site in ANWAR is the size of Reagan National Airport and ANWAR is the size of SC.
We have not built any new refineries in that past 35 years despite the growth in population and the addition of fuel blend requiresments. It is the greenies who influence the market more than those evil oil companies and those OPEC nations that hate us so much. These are the ones who influence the supply side of the market and drive up the cost of oil. If those evil oil companies wanted to really make a profit they would cease to search for new sources of oil,
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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/6/2008 10:25:21 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
This quote from the article you posted, sounds eerily familiar:
"The one year lag between crude prices and rig count disappeared in the 1986 price collapse. For the next few years the economy of the towns and cities in the oil patch was characterized by bankruptcy, bank failures and high unemployment."
It seems from the article that there are several factors that contribute to the price increase of oil. And I'm still convinced that market mainipulation in fact does occur. Wars do contribute to this effect.
When the output of production is controlled as to whether it is increased or decreased, we have a market manipulation. The controller of this is OPEC.
That does not excuse the speculators because they to contribute to the problem.
Some people say oil is not a contributing source to an impending war with Iran but anyone with a map can see which countries coastline parallels the strategic Persian Gulf including the narrow straits of Hormuz. Iran's sabre rattling and nuclear ambitions have the Sunnis (Saudi Arabia) nervous as well as the rest of the world that depends upon this oil distribution pathway.
I said in 2003, when we attacked Iran and Afghanistan, that the only justification for Iraq (other than Bush's revenge on Saddam and their oil) was that we have two good jumping off points for an Iranian invasion. I hope I'm not right.
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/6/2008 11:20:13 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1033
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
It plays in Peoria. Meaning the state of the curren educational system and the media has the mind-numbed masses with no understanding of the free market! They are simply playing to the vast ignorance of the American public!
So, IOW, it's grandstanding to get votes because the investigation would appeal to the seeming infraction upon the public?
Yep. Just like when Congress calls for investigation of Big Oil for price gouging. It plays good on the public but has no substance.
Then why do the oil cartels find it necessary to restrict supply when the price of oil falls in order to manipulate the price higher. So where is the "free market" here?
The free market is that the producers are free to produce whatever amout they are capable of and consumers are able to purchase what they want - both without government interferrence. The price is determined by supply and demand. Of course if suppliers restrict their production and demand remains constant the price will go up. Welcome to the world of free market economics.
quote:
Here is a link to an article about the history of crude oil prices and the impact of various situations upon them. It makes for interesting reading. Texas gave OPEC the idea to restrict supply to inflate prices. Thanks Texas!
You're welcome! The object of the Texas Railroad COmmission in controlling the price of oil was to obtain price stability. Something which the country desperately needed in the 1930s and beyond.
You might take a look at the article you linked regarding the price controls implemented in the US in the 70s. This was a control on the price of domestically produced oil. It is widely regarded as a huge mistake which created a dis-incentive to produce American crude oil. This is an example of the market not being a "free" one because of the price controls.
quote:
"OPEC was formed in 1960 with five founding members Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Venezuela. Two of the representatives at the initial meetings had studied the the Texas Railroad Commission's methods of influencing price through limitations on production."
Is this a problem?
Throughout the 60s we still enjoyed a stable pricing of crude oil. It only became a problem when the politics of the mid-east heated up in 1973.
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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/7/2008 2:24:58 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
It plays in Peoria. Meaning the state of the curren educational system and the media has the mind-numbed masses with no understanding of the free market! They are simply playing to the vast ignorance of the American public!
So, IOW, it's grandstanding to get votes because the investigation would appeal to the seeming infraction upon the public?
Yep. Just like when Congress calls for investigation of Big Oil for price gouging. It plays good on the public but has no substance.
Then why do the oil cartels find it necessary to restrict supply when the price of oil falls in order to manipulate the price higher. So where is the "free market" here?
The free market is that the producers are free to produce whatever amout they are capable of and consumers are able to purchase what they want - both without government interferrence. The price is determined by supply and demand. Of course if suppliers restrict their production and demand remains constant the price will go up. Welcome to the world of free market economics.
quote:
Here is a link to an article about the history of crude oil prices and the impact of various situations upon them. It makes for interesting reading. Texas gave OPEC the idea to restrict supply to inflate prices. Thanks Texas!
You're welcome! The object of the Texas Railroad COmmission in controlling the price of oil was to obtain price stability. Something which the country desperately needed in the 1930s and beyond.
You might take a look at the article you linked regarding the price controls implemented in the US in the 70s. This was a control on the price of domestically produced oil. It is widely regarded as a huge mistake which created a dis-incentive to produce American crude oil. This is an example of the market not being a "free" one because of the price controls.
quote:
"OPEC was formed in 1960 with five founding members Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Venezuela. Two of the representatives at the initial meetings had studied the the Texas Railroad Commission's methods of influencing price through limitations on production."
Is this a problem?
Throughout the 60s we still enjoyed a stable pricing of crude oil. It only became a problem when the politics of the mid-east heated up in 1973.
You missed my point there is NO FREE MARKET especially in regards to oil. Business or government always look to their own interest and do unethical things to influence the price of this most important commodity. Unnecessary production cuts just as an excuse to gouge the consumer IMO is unethical!
Reagan "Mr. Free Market" stepped in because a strike was important to "national security" or the economy but when it comes to oil companies there is too much of a hands off policy!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/8/2008 9:51:01 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3960
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: letusreason
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: letusreason
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
It makes no sense for an attack at this time. But His Excellency is not known for logic.
Any military action is likely going to be done by Israel. But an attack might actually bolster the current Iranian regime by "proving" to the citizens that they really are going to be invaded.
Is that based on the intelligence you have gathered or the CIA? or...do you work for the CIA?
No, I'm a rocket scientist.
Ok it took me a while but I have one finally.
Shouldn't you be discussing the rockets used in the attack and not the logistics?
From the OP link:
"Well placed" sources told the paper that a top agent had been recalled recently "because the US was thought to be making a decision within weeks to attack Iran with unmanned aircraft".
The Predator-type aircraft do not pack enough firepower to do the damage needed. I'm not sure what you mean by "logistics". Why is Iran's internal politics not relevant.
_____________________________
Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/8/2008 1:13:58 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1033
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
You missed my point there is NO FREE MARKET especially in regards to oil. Business or government always look to their own interest and do unethical things to influence the price of this most important commodity. Unnecessary production cuts just as an excuse to gouge the consumer IMO is unethical!
I think the source of our disagreement is the definition of "free market". If I understand you correctly, you believe that in a "free market" oil production would be a max capacity at all times and the price would be determined by whatever the demand happens to be. If that is your definition I would agree that is fine except for one point.
Producers, in your definition, are forced to produce at full capacity when it may not be in their best interest to do so. In a truly free market, producers are free just as consumers are free.
If producers are forced to produce at full capacity all the time the market would suffer severe prices swings as large fields go on decline before other fields are developed. If prices are depressed there is less incentive to explore. Eventually, shortages would develop and we are right back to the situation you are complaining about.
Adjusting production to maintain price stability is a good thing, overall. That was the premise of the TRC when Texas controlled oil prices. Now OPEC attemots to do the same. Unfortunately, the politics of the mid-east complicates the issue making it in our best interest to open more production fields in the US.
quote:
Reagan "Mr. Free Market" stepped in because a strike was important to "national security" or the economy but when it comes to oil companies there is too much of a hands off policy!
Just a quick political point:
In 1980, the Oil Chemical and Atomic Workers Union staged the largest strike in their history lasting more than 3 months nation wide and even longer in certain locals. That was during the Carter administration. Carter did nothing to end that strike (rightfully so, IMHO). So as far as interfering in oil/labor issues the Democrats had a "hands off" policy as well.
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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/9/2008 7:15:34 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
You missed my point there is NO FREE MARKET especially in regards to oil. Business or government always look to their own interest and do unethical things to influence the price of this most important commodity. Unnecessary production cuts just as an excuse to gouge the consumer IMO is unethical!
I think the source of our disagreement is the definition of "free market". If I understand you correctly, you believe that in a "free market" oil production would be a max capacity at all times and the price would be determined by whatever the demand happens to be. If that is your definition I would agree that is fine except for one point.
Producers, in your definition, are forced to produce at full capacity when it may not be in their best interest to do so. In a truly free market, producers are free just as consumers are free.
If producers are forced to produce at full capacity all the time the market would suffer severe prices swings as large fields go on decline before other fields are developed. If prices are depressed there is less incentive to explore. Eventually, shortages would develop and we are right back to the situation you are complaining about.
Adjusting production to maintain price stability is a good thing, overall. That was the premise of the TRC when Texas controlled oil prices. Now OPEC attemots to do the same. Unfortunately, the politics of the mid-east complicates the issue making it in our best interest to open more production fields in the US.
quote:
Reagan "Mr. Free Market" stepped in because a strike was important to "national security" or the economy but when it comes to oil companies there is too much of a hands off policy!
Just a quick political point:
In 1980, the Oil Chemical and Atomic Workers Union staged the largest strike in their history lasting more than 3 months nation wide and even longer in certain locals. That was during the Carter administration. Carter did nothing to end that strike (rightfully so, IMHO). So as far as interfering in oil/labor issues the Democrats had a "hands off" policy as well.
Oil companies make money whether oil is $2 or $200 per barrel. They are the only company who makes record profits when the price of their crude materials is highest. All other companies are limited by the free market (aka competition) in how much they can raise prices and usually when the price of their crude materials go up, it depresses their profits.
No other type of company can raise prices with impunity like big oil to cover their operating costs. No company I know depresses production either to inflate their price just in response to sluggish demand. Oil companies know we have to buy their product.
But I agree we need to stimulate more domestic production by more offshore drilling and opening up ANWR. Now this is more a matter of national security than blowing up a bunch of Islamist kooks in Iraq!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/9/2008 7:36:03 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1033
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Oil companies make money whether oil is $2 or $200 per barrel.
Not exactly. It costs money to get oil from the ground. While Saudi can profitably produce at prices as low as $3 per barrel we cannot do that here. In the 1980s when oil prices dropped to record lows many producing field in West Texas and Oklahoma were shut in because it cost more to operate than the oil was worth. Higher crude oil prices can make marginal fields profitable again thereby increasing supply.
quote:
They are the only company who makes record profits when the price of their crude materials is highest.
What do you mean by "crude materials"?
quote:
All other companies are limited by the free market (aka competition) in how much they can raise prices and usually when the price of their crude materials go up, it depresses their profits.
I don't know of any other world wide industry which is more of a free market. Prices cannot be arbitrarily raised because competition does exist.
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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/9/2008 10:09:40 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
Oil companies make money whether oil is $2 or $200 per barrel.
Not exactly. It costs money to get oil from the ground. While Saudi can profitably produce at prices as low as $3 per barrel we cannot do that here. In the 1980s when oil prices dropped to record lows many producing field in West Texas and Oklahoma were shut in because it cost more to operate than the oil was worth. Higher crude oil prices can make marginal fields profitable again thereby increasing supply.
quote:
They are the only company who makes record profits when the price of their crude materials is highest.
What do you mean by "crude materials"?
quote:
All other companies are limited by the free market (aka competition) in how much they can raise prices and usually when the price of their crude materials go up, it depresses their profits.
I don't know of any other world wide industry which is more of a free market. Prices cannot be arbitrarily raised because competition does exist.
What I meant by "crude materials" was the basic materials a company needs to make its "final product". Iron ore and scrap steel for the steel mill, trees and pulp for a paper mill, widget material for the widget factory.
What competition? A handful of oil companies? If there was competition then oil companies would be having price wars to attract our business. But instead they raise and lower prices lockstep with one another. The only difference I see in price between gas stations is more their location rather than if one is Shell and the other a Chevron.
Another thing that tells me that there is good money in gasoline is that our Von's supermarket chain is now opening up gas stations next to their supermarkets. Everyone knows how tight the profit margins in the food business are. Why would they diversify into another "low margin" business?
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/10/2008 8:42:35 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Are you saying that the owners of the oil fields do not have the right to limit their own production?
Yes, if indeed they agreed to a quota set by OPEC. They would then be breaking a deal they made.
quote:
The pricing is based on supply and demand. The supply is being curtailed by the owners and the price will seek equilibrium with demand.
We currently have a surplus. The point is they are intentionally cutting back production because they want to boost the price of oil. It's not a supply and demand issue. The supply currently is there. The demand will not go away until we use another form of energy.
It would be a waste of time to complain to our government when they benefit from it just as much as the producers.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/10/2008 9:17:06 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
Complain to our government for making us vulnerable.
Complain to whom? Tweedle-Dumb or Tweedle-Dumber?
Eight years ago I thought that electing a man with experience in the oil industry was a good idea? Now, I feel he's more oilman than American!
BTW did some statistics hunting and came up with an interesting fact! Guess which countries have the third and fourth biggest oil reserves in the world?
If you guessed Iraq and Iran you win a cupie doll! 
< Message edited by mapachito13 -- 9/10/2008 9:25:36 PM >
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/10/2008 9:44:11 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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I'm absolutely shocked!!!!!!! BUt, but, but, we went to war because of terrorist.
Only in the mind of the blind......
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/12/2008 3:59:21 PM
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radiorobert
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/6/2005
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Terrorism is what has caused all this mess with the markets to begin with.
And...I'm sorry but, if oil is a vital resource to ones survival, I'd go to war to try and stabilize it any day.
See, we need not feel GUILTY about trying to survive.
Terrorism IS real and is in NO way related to our need for oil. Terrorism just happens to be the thing that is making the mid-east markets bubble in turmoil right now, thus putting pressure on the more stable fields elsewhere in the world. Throw speculators into that mix, a couple of OPEC members that hate us, two growing nations with a total of 3 billion people and you have quite a dilemma.
So, no, it's not just simple black and white, "it's all for oil" type stuff. We have had to respond to things in our world that have sadly caused us stress and strain in another area of our lives.
Struggle is not without struggle, if you know what I mean.
If you're in the oil business, you don't make oil look bad by raising the price and giving people an incentive to develop other fuels. Because remember, you want people to buy your product. 
It's easy to dismiss all this as just some form of corruption, but that is a far too easy scapegoat in the midst of a much larger dilemma. Because so many are not educated on things like this anymore, simple answers appeal to people's sense of reason.
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RE: Impending attack on Iran? - 9/12/2008 4:04:01 PM
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radiorobert
Posts: 59
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
BTW did some statistics hunting and came up with an interesting fact! Guess which countries have the third and fourth biggest oil reserves in the world?
If you guessed Iraq and Iran you win a cupie doll!
Yeah,,,gee, I wonder what the Lord has in store!
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