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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 1:00:06 AM
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kisstheson
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PopsiLufsJesus
Okay, so details are important, but all the details and the way they worked together to me seem to be more important.
Absolutely. this is what I've been saying all along. we cannot have the resurrection without His sufferings. Jesus is like a beautiful many fauceted diamond. "Consider Jesus." said Paul. The more we focus on everything Jesus the more we will be able to love as he loves.
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 1:03:19 AM
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kisstheson
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PopsiLufsJesus
Yep. Don't take this the wrong way, but I feel like you are treating me like I am a new believer...or just stupid. In any case, I've been saved for 14 years...
I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't think you're stupid. I am very passionate about calling people to consider Jesus' sufferings. I think this is a lack in modern christianity, I myself have been a christian for 36 yrs. I am glad you are on His side. :)
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 1:04:27 AM
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PopsiLufsJesus
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36 years! whoa. You have me beat... But not to
900 Posts!
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Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.” ~Matthew 9:37-38 
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 2:23:05 AM
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kisstheson
Posts: 965
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PopsiLufsJesus
Hey, Hey, Hey
Do you know the reference to "Consider Jesus?"
Hebrews 12:3
"Think about Jesus, who endured opposition from sinners, so that you don't become tired and give up."
Notice the context and how we are to consider Jesus.
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 2:24:37 AM
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kisstheson
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PopsiLufsJesus
36 years! whoa. You have me beat... But not to
900 Posts!
hats off to you my man! Dude! 
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 8:11:43 AM
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SonInMe1
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Who suffered on the cross?
Many.
Who took our sins away if we believe in Him?
Jesus Christ.
I don't understand globes in churches or what they represent. I don't know why they would be there. However I have no problem with a church that does not display the cross because, as I was taught in my first church, we do not worship idols or roman torture devices.
We worship the work that was done on the cross. Not having a cross does not always mean the church is wishy washy or does not teach biblical truths. People believe differently and not everyone believes in having a cross in church.
I don't prefer one. No one would say I was some wishy washy liberal christian. I know what our Lord went through. I aprreciate it without some symbol and can remember it without some adornment.
I do not woship emotion...or guilt...or some symbol. The sufferings of Christ makes me feel...special and loved....not shameful or feeling guilty of what Christ did for me. I don't need to be beat over the head with blood or crosses or beaten figures of Christ to know what went on.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 9:01:04 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1080
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
quote:
ORIGINAL: PopsiLufsJesus
I'm aware of the context. And so what you are saying is that during communion the focus was the cross? Correct me if I am wrong?
Yes. "This is my body broken for you. this is my blood shed for you." We are to remember the cross and what he suffered for us. Paul also said we are not to partake of communion in an unworthy manner. loving others is also important. when you come to the lord's table there should be no unforgiveness in your heart towards another...for example.
When we drink the wine, we remember Christ's sacrifice which took away the sins of the world...And when we partake of the loaf, we remember He is the Bread of Life. When we break bread we are symbolically taking Him, the Bread of Life, into ourselves, a reminder of the reality that He now is in us...that we are now the body of Christ. This shared experience is to remind us that we form one body, and that each member of that body belongs to all the others. (Romans 12:5)
Without Christ's finished work on the cross, we could not receive His resurrected life. And if we do not receive His resurrected life we are still dead in our sins.
We do not worship a dead Savior, we worship a risen Lord!
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 10:05:46 AM
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sisrev
Posts: 886
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From: The South, ya'll
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
quote:
ORIGINAL: sisrev
No one is saying that we should not teach the doctrine of the cross, or quit singing about it, just that it's not necessary to have a physical symbol to remind us of what Christ did there, any more than we need pools of fake blood to do so. No one, to my knowledge, is berating anyone for having a cross as a symbol, the only berating I see is from those who state that the lack of said symbol is somehow indicative of a lack of faith or sound doctrine.
So then please tell my why some modern churches are removing the cross and putting up a globe or international flags? You are aware that only in this generation the cross has been lacking in our houses of worship?
I already stated why I think some churches are removing the cross. The same reason some are removing their steeples. They don't want people to be consumed with making the icon the thing. And icon is not the thing itself, it's the symbol of the thing. The thing--the true cross, the one where Christ died, is the thing. An imitation of that thing, a fake cross, is not to be elevated to the same stature. We must revere THE CROSS, not A CROSS.
_____________________________
My new blog, A Virtuous Woman
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 11:33:01 AM
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kisstheson
Posts: 965
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sisrev
quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
quote:
ORIGINAL: sisrev
No one is saying that we should not teach the doctrine of the cross, or quit singing about it, just that it's not necessary to have a physical symbol to remind us of what Christ did there, any more than we need pools of fake blood to do so. No one, to my knowledge, is berating anyone for having a cross as a symbol, the only berating I see is from those who state that the lack of said symbol is somehow indicative of a lack of faith or sound doctrine.
So then please tell my why some modern churches are removing the cross and putting up a globe or international flags? You are aware that only in this generation the cross has been lacking in our houses of worship?
I already stated why I think some churches are removing the cross. The same reason some are removing their steeples. They don't want people to be consumed with making the icon the thing. And icon is not the thing itself, it's the symbol of the thing. The thing--the true cross, the one where Christ died, is the thing. An imitation of that thing, a fake cross, is not to be elevated to the same stature. We must revere THE CROSS, not A CROSS.
a sign of the times...never in the history of christendom have christians not wanted a representation of the true cross as a reminder of what Christ suffered. Only in this generation.
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 11:35:04 AM
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kisstheson
Posts: 965
Joined: 5/1/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: URForgiven
quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
quote:
ORIGINAL: PopsiLufsJesus
I'm aware of the context. And so what you are saying is that during communion the focus was the cross? Correct me if I am wrong?
Yes. "This is my body broken for you. this is my blood shed for you." We are to remember the cross and what he suffered for us. Paul also said we are not to partake of communion in an unworthy manner. loving others is also important. when you come to the lord's table there should be no unforgiveness in your heart towards another...for example.
When we drink the wine, we remember Christ's sacrifice which took away the sins of the world...And when we partake of the loaf, we remember He is the Bread of Life. When we break bread we are symbolically taking Him, the Bread of Life, into ourselves, a reminder of the reality that He now is in us...that we are now the body of Christ. This shared experience is to remind us that we form one body, and that each member of that body belongs to all the others. (Romans 12:5)
Without Christ's finished work on the cross, we could not receive His resurrected life. And if we do not receive His resurrected life we are still dead in our sins.
We do not worship a dead Savior, we worship a risen Lord!
Peace
I never said we worhsip a dead savior. Hovever we do share in His sufferings...
"Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal
among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as
though some strange thing were happening to you; but to
the degree that you share the sufferings of Christ, keep on
rejoicing, so that also at the revelation of His glory you
may rejoice with exultation. If you are reviled for the name
of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and
of God rests on you" (1 Peter 4:12-14).
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 11:35:47 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3576
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
A similar complaint was voiced often, some years ago, that the churches have done away with the blood of Messiah. I saw what they were talking about then and since then, in that statements were made that people didn't want a "bloody" religion, songs were rejected for their being "bloody," the blood ceased to be mentioned in pulpits, etc. From my experience, this outcry was far more legitimate.
Now you are getting it. This is another symtom of the lack of preaching about the cross and the sufferings of Jesus. Removing the cross as reminder of His sacrifice from our houses of worship is another sign of dissing the true message. Its a sign of the secularization of christianity. Its interesting that in communist china and in the former U.S.S.R. all symbols of religion were removed. That won't happen here? We are asleep at the wheel.
 No! I am not "getting it"! I don't agree with you! I thought you understood this. I do not agree with romantic connections with a physical cross. A cross in or on a building or one a person neither embeds nor cradles the Truth, and I have seen no churches replacing the cross with globes. I doubt it is happening as often as you seem to be saying. I have to see proof, I am not seeing it, and I wonder: have you asked those church you say have "removed" the cross why? Or are you making assumptions?
You seem so enamored with crosses because to you, they represent something religious. What I want to know are answers to the following:
- Where does the Bible say that churches should display crosses?
- Where does the Bible say that people should have crosses and kneel before them?
- Where does the Bible say that Messiah said we should display crosses and kneel before them?
- Where does the Bible say that the apostles taught the people to kneel before crosses or show specific respect to them?
- Where, in all the Scriptures you quoted, does any of them say to pay special attention to a physical object of a cross?
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 11:41:53 AM
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kisstheson
Posts: 965
Joined: 5/1/2006
From: AOL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
Who suffered on the cross?
Many.
Who took our sins away if we believe in Him?
Jesus Christ.
I don't understand globes in churches or what they represent. I don't know why they would be there. However I have no problem with a church that does not display the cross because, as I was taught in my first church, we do not worship idols or roman torture devices.
We worship the work that was done on the cross. Not having a cross does not always mean the church is wishy washy or does not teach biblical truths. People believe differently and not everyone believes in having a cross in church.
I don't prefer one. No one would say I was some wishy washy liberal christian. I know what our Lord went through. I aprreciate it without some symbol and can remember it without some adornment.
I do not woship emotion...or guilt...or some symbol. The sufferings of Christ makes me feel...special and loved....not shameful or feeling guilty of what Christ did for me. I don't need to be beat over the head with blood or crosses or beaten figures of Christ to know what went on.
If I were married would I need a picture of my husband to remind me of his love for me and my love for him? maybe not, but I sure do appreciate having his picture around. Seeing the bloodied imgage of Jesus does envoke strong feelings of love and devotion and it always makes me think twice about forgiving those who have wronged me and turning away from my sins. Why does a person listen to their favorite Christian worship band, or read a good devotional? to be inspired. So should the cross inspire love for Jesus.
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 11:50:50 AM
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sisrev
Posts: 886
Joined: 8/7/2006
From: The South, ya'll
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
quote:
ORIGINAL: sisrev
I already stated why I think some churches are removing the cross. The same reason some are removing their steeples. They don't want people to be consumed with making the icon the thing. And icon is not the thing itself, it's the symbol of the thing. The thing--the true cross, the one where Christ died, is the thing. An imitation of that thing, a fake cross, is not to be elevated to the same stature. We must revere THE CROSS, not A CROSS.
a sign of the times...never in the history of christendom have christians not wanted a representation of the true cross as a reminder of what Christ suffered. Only in this generation.
I believe you are mistaken--the early church used the icthus (fish) as the symbol of Christianity. It was not until almost 200 years later that the cross came into common usage as the symbol of Christianity.
_____________________________
My new blog, A Virtuous Woman
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 5:58:19 PM
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kisstheson
Posts: 965
Joined: 5/1/2006
From: AOL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
A similar complaint was voiced often, some years ago, that the churches have done away with the blood of Messiah. I saw what they were talking about then and since then, in that statements were made that people didn't want a "bloody" religion, songs were rejected for their being "bloody," the blood ceased to be mentioned in pulpits, etc. From my experience, this outcry was far more legitimate.
Now you are getting it. This is another symtom of the lack of preaching about the cross and the sufferings of Jesus. Removing the cross as reminder of His sacrifice from our houses of worship is another sign of dissing the true message. Its a sign of the secularization of christianity. Its interesting that in communist china and in the former U.S.S.R. all symbols of religion were removed. That won't happen here? We are asleep at the wheel.
No! I am not "getting it"! I don't agree with you! I thought you understood this. I do not agree with romantic connections with a physical cross. A cross in or on a building or one a person neither embeds nor cradles the Truth, and I have seen no churches replacing the cross with globes. I doubt it is happening as often as you seem to be saying. I have to see proof, I am not seeing it, and I wonder: have you asked those church you say have "removed" the cross why? Or are you making assumptions?
You seem so enamored with crosses because to you, they represent something religious. What I want to know are answers to the following:
- Where does the Bible say that churches should display crosses?
- Where does the Bible say that people should have crosses and kneel before them?
- Where does the Bible say that Messiah said we should display crosses and kneel before them?
- Where does the Bible say that the apostles taught the people to kneel before crosses or show specific respect to them?
- Where, in all the Scriptures you quoted, does any of them say to pay special attention to a physical object of a cross?
May Jesus help us...
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 6:01:49 PM
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sisrev
Posts: 886
Joined: 8/7/2006
From: The South, ya'll
Status: offline
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In some churches, they still do, at least a version of bowing--more of a half kneel maybe, it's called "genuflecting".
_____________________________
My new blog, A Virtuous Woman
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 6:59:07 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3576
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PopsiLufsJesus
What about the idols that we bow before everyday. The internet, the TV, food, people, our jobs, etc etc...
Crosses are just among many things that people put before God...
Amein, Popsi.
Kisstheson,
I do not think that my questions are unreasonable. Can you answer them?
Where does the Bible say that churches should display crosses?
Where does the Bible say that people should have crosses and kneel before them?
Where does the Bible say that Messiah said we should display crosses and kneel before them?
Where does the Bible say that the apostles taught the people to kneel before crosses or show specific respect to them?
Where, in all the Scriptures you quoted, does any of them say to pay special attention to a physical object of a cross?
Is the Bible truly what we should go by, or should we just make up our religion as we go along, according our our personal preferences?
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 9:17:31 PM
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x_SoliDeoGloria_x
Posts: 159
Joined: 9/3/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PopsiLufsJesus
they kneel before an actual cross, like idol worship?
but to bring up more to this...let us move away from the cross as a physical idol ...
What about the idols that we bow before everyday. The internet, the TV, food, people, our jobs, etc etc...
Crosses are just among many things that people put before God...
I think you're mixing apples with oranges here. Many people put things like the internet, food, jobs, before God. But if they want to have a cross in their church or in their home or around their neck, I don't think that this means that they are putting the cross before God. Don't you think that they might just be using it as a reminder of Christ's atonement, as Christians have been doing for centuries?
_____________________________
"Not by work going before grace shall I deserve grace, nor by my work following grace shall I deserve eternal life; but to him that believes, sin is pardoned and righteousness imputed." -- Martin Luther
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/9/2008 11:59:15 PM
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kisstheson
Posts: 965
Joined: 5/1/2006
From: AOL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
ORIGINAL: PopsiLufsJesus
What about the idols that we bow before everyday. The internet, the TV, food, people, our jobs, etc etc...
Crosses are just among many things that people put before God...
Amein, Popsi.
Kisstheson,
I do not think that my questions are unreasonable. Can you answer them?
Where does the Bible say that churches should display crosses?
Where does the Bible say that people should have crosses and kneel before them?
Where does the Bible say that Messiah said we should display crosses and kneel before them?
Where does the Bible say that the apostles taught the people to kneel before crosses or show specific respect to them?
Where, in all the Scriptures you quoted, does any of them say to pay special attention to a physical object of a cross?
Is the Bible truly what we should go by, or should we just make up our religion as we go along, according our our personal preferences?
I just shake my head in disbelief...a person kneels before a cross, say at an altar call, when the invitation is given for salvation, they are not worshipping the cross. How many times do I have to say it? The cross is a REMINDER His sacrifice.. It's what it represents. Never in past generations have christians said, "I don't prefer a cross in my house of worship. Show me the importance of a cross." Read some church history. This is most grievious. You said in one of your replies that churches are not talking about the Messiah's blood enough, so go ahaed, keep asking your questions, "what's the big deal about displaying the cross?"
Maybe if the government comes in and starts having community cross burnings, maybe then you'll understand.
< Message edited by kisstheson -- 9/10/2008 12:07:23 AM >
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/10/2008 12:02:56 AM
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kisstheson
Posts: 965
Joined: 5/1/2006
From: AOL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PopsiLufsJesus
they kneel before an actual cross, like idol worship?
but to bring up more to this...let us move away from the cross as a physical idol ...
What about the idols that we bow before everyday. The internet, the TV, food, people, our jobs, etc etc...
Crosses are just among many things that people put before God...
How can a christian put the cross before God when the cross is meant to point us to God? Oy!!!!
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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