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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 8/31/2008 10:08:25 PM
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HannahElizabeth
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The same people who are questioning Barack Obama for his viewpoints on other people's sins already have their ink pens poised to vote for a man who is living in sin. John McCain committed adultery against his first wife, and then divorced her to marry the other woman, Cindy. In fact, in God's eyes, he is still in adultery. And you would like to see this unstable man who is living in opposition to God's Word become the president of the United States and make life or death decisions that impact us all. You would like an adulteress to be our First Lady, the example your daughters will follow over the next four years. God remembers what they did, even if some folks are willing to give him a pass and say, "that all happened a long time ago." If you asked John McCain to tell you his testimony, he could not articulate it. He's been asked to do so, and he can't. Obama, however, not only can tell you how he became a Christian, but he worked in urban ministry for several years, putting his faith into action.
Now, I don't think Jesus went around trying to condemn gay people. He hated the sin, not the people. He went where sinners lived, and tried to win them over. If He were on earth today, I just don't think He'd been protesting at an abortion clinic. I think He'd be reaching out to the people who are having sex out of marriage in the first place and trying to bring them into His fold. Many things went on during His time that were an abomination - but His harshest words were for Christians who spent all their time trying to figure out who else was a Christian and pick them apart. Those are the people who put Him to death.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 8/31/2008 10:25:40 PM
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TorchHeart
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From: One of the coldest places on Earth
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DreadPirateRandy
quote:
ORIGINAL: TorchHeart
Therefore, even if he DOES follow and worship Christ and believe in many other things that other Christians do, then there's no way he can be a Christian, or saved by Christ himself.
When he continues to display an ungodly lifestyle by supporting such things that God hates, then, no, there's no way he can lead a sincere Christian lifestyle.
You can't follow Christ and promote what He is against. That's dangling on both sides of the fence. You're either on one side or you're not.
Stop making excuses.
The Bible says hate what is evil and cling to what is good. Obama says homosexuality is not immorality. The Bible says it is.
I'd rather believe a truthful God than a deceitful politician, but that's just me. 
So does that go for McCain, then, too? Or just Obama? Because as I recall, McCain is pro-death penalty. He also committed adultry. As was astutely pointed out here by Thessa, there is no one sin that is greater than another sin, except denying Christ as the Son of God and not accepting Him as our Savior and Redeemer.
I'm not the one making excuses. I'm the one trying to make sense.
EDIT: Also, regarding Obama's stance on gay marriage, did you watch the Saddleback Showdown on FOX News, yesterday? Because what he said his belief on the matter was doesn't jive with what you're claiming he believes. He specifically said that he believes (both personally and morally) that marriage is between a man and a woman, but he is not going to sign a law that ammends the constitution that states that.
< Message edited by TorchHeart -- 8/31/2008 10:34:06 PM >
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 8/31/2008 10:38:41 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 727
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chrisovery
huangshan i have never seen anyone that has truly accepted jesus christ as their lord and savior want any kind of murder done. this is a huge compromise in who jesus christ is. think of it this way. he had every reason to kill off the whole world yet he died himself for the whole world.
I understand that, but you continue to use that "truly" word, which I see as a problem, as I noted before. Our perceptions are deceiving and our understanding is frequently faulty. I'm not sure any one of us has the authority to make proclamations of the "trueness" quality of others.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/1/2008 1:49:10 AM
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ljmac
Posts: 1419
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HannahElizabeth
The same people who are questioning Barack Obama for his viewpoints on other people's sins already have their ink pens poised to vote for a man who is living in sin. John McCain committed adultery against his first wife, and then divorced her to marry the other woman, Cindy. In fact, in God's eyes, he is still in adultery. And you would like to see this unstable man who is living in opposition to God's Word become the president of the United States and make life or death decisions that impact us all. You would like an adulteress to be our First Lady, the example your daughters will follow over the next four years. God remembers what they did, even if some folks are willing to give him a pass and say, "that all happened a long time ago." If you asked John McCain to tell you his testimony, he could not articulate it. He's been asked to do so, and he can't. Obama, however, not only can tell you how he became a Christian, but he worked in urban ministry for several years, putting his faith into action.
Now, I don't think Jesus went around trying to condemn gay people. He hated the sin, not the people. He went where sinners lived, and tried to win them over. If He were on earth today, I just don't think He'd been protesting at an abortion clinic. I think He'd be reaching out to the people who are having sex out of marriage in the first place and trying to bring them into His fold. Many things went on during His time that were an abomination - but His harshest words were for Christians who spent all their time trying to figure out who else was a Christian and pick them apart. Those are the people who put Him to death.
Stop making things up. Go find someone who owns a bible and see what He had to say about pharisees. Then you can stop changing the gospel to fit your prejudices.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/1/2008 3:50:23 AM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HannahElizabeth
The same people who are questioning Barack Obama for his viewpoints on other people's sins already have their ink pens poised to vote for a man who is living in sin. John McCain committed adultery against his first wife, and then divorced her to marry the other woman, Cindy. In fact, in God's eyes, he is still in adultery. And you would like to see this unstable man who is living in opposition to God's Word become the president of the United States and make life or death decisions that impact us all. You would like an adulteress to be our First Lady, the example your daughters will follow over the next four years. God remembers what they did, even if some folks are willing to give him a pass and say, "that all happened a long time ago." If you asked John McCain to tell you his testimony, he could not articulate it. He's been asked to do so, and he can't. Obama, however, not only can tell you how he became a Christian, but he worked in urban ministry for several years, putting his faith into action.
Now, I don't think Jesus went around trying to condemn gay people. He hated the sin, not the people. He went where sinners lived, and tried to win them over. If He were on earth today, I just don't think He'd been protesting at an abortion clinic. I think He'd be reaching out to the people who are having sex out of marriage in the first place and trying to bring them into His fold. Many things went on during His time that were an abomination - but His harshest words were for Christians who spent all their time trying to figure out who else was a Christian and pick them apart. Those are the people who put Him to death.
Apparently you dont believe that if a person asks for forgiveness then they are forgiven? Well McCain does believe in God and im sure hes asked for forgiveness for his sins. And talking about them all day and night wont stop Jesus from forgiving him.
__________
And i totally agree with ljmac. If you have a verse from the bible that states what you wrote id love to see it. Otherwise you are just making things up so it sounds better to what you believe to be true.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/1/2008 6:22:50 AM
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HannahElizabeth
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quote:
Stop making things up. Go find someone who owns a bible and see what He had to say about pharisees. Then you can stop changing the gospel to fit your prejudices.
I don't have to find someone who owns a Bible, because I have my own to study. I am not clear what you mean regarding prejudices. Prejudices against the Pharisees? Against John McCain?
quote:
Apparently you dont believe that if a person asks for forgiveness then they are forgiven? Well McCain does believe in God and im sure hes asked for forgiveness for his sins. And talking about them all day and night wont stop Jesus from forgiving him.
None of us know whether John McCain has asked for forgiveness for his sins, only that he still openly lives in them. I don't believe that a stated belief in God means one has asked for such forgiveness. Many people who say they believe in God, and even own Bibles, don't live by it.
There is an assumption that McCain is a stronger Christian than Barack Obama, possibly just because he is a Republican who has a belief in a Christian God, and is against abortion and gay rights. There are many, many other issues that God addresses in the Bible beyond those two, including adultery, which he is still living in. According to the Bible I own and yours:
Matthew 19:9
I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.
Again, I don't understand why John McCain's actions are not considered reprehensible, just because his adultery started a while back. He is still has the same character, God is still the same God, He doesn't forget, and His Word doesn't change to protect certain politicians and not others.
John Edwards' career is over because he has a character issue due to his adultery. You can't cheat without being a liar, and that's clear to Christians and non-Christians alike. He's asked for forgiveness, and chose his wife and family over the other woman. But he will never be the president of the United States. Unlike McCain, he can't wait several years, marry Rielle Edwards and make her our First Lady.
Just like the woman caught in adultery, John McCain needs to go and sin no more. He's still in sin.
< Message edited by HannahElizabeth -- 9/1/2008 6:28:51 AM >
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/1/2008 6:32:26 AM
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saved9201
Posts: 714
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HannahElizabeth
There is an assumption that McCain is a stronger Christian than Barack Obama, possibly just because he is a Republican...
Umm.....maybe you don't know, but, here on CW, you can take out the, "There is an assumption that.." and "possibly just" and many folks would give you resounding "amens" and high fives for stating a "truly" factual statement. On the other hand, some would just look at you as stating the obvious.
- Julius
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/1/2008 8:02:33 AM
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saved9201
Posts: 714
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PolarBear
The Bible says you must believe in your heart that Jesus died for your sins and confess with your mouth that God raised Him from the dead. Barack has done that -- at least on the surface. Whether it was from the heart is something only he and God knows.
With that in mind, maybe the OP or somebody needs to define the requirements for being a "true" Christian. And if it's not asking too much, one or two references from say, the Holy Bible rather than from the World Net Daily or somebody's blog?
-Julius
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/1/2008 9:12:46 AM
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Rufas2000
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quote:
but His harshest words were for Christians who spent all their time trying to figure out who else was a Christian and pick them apart. Those are the people who put Him to death.
I think you're describing Pharisees here. Pharisees and Christians were far different then and far different now. Anyone can be a Christian as long as they declare Jesus Christ Savior and Lord of their lives, not anyone could be a Pharasee. Jesus slammed the Pharasees for their strict adherence to the law while ignoring the command of love but he mostly spoke as a teacher to his followers, trying to show them God's way to live (the Beatitudes, Sermon on the Mount, I have prepared a place for you). He didn't have many harsh words for his followers.
The exception to that is his disciples but his admonitions to them were on a wide range of failings and he did this to prepare them to lead the church in his corporeal absense (not there in body on a daily basis).
You may have been using Christian as a synonym for "religious person of the day" like Christians are today. However Pharasees are too different from Christians (though it is possible a person could be both) to make the comparison meaningful.
< Message edited by Rufas2000 -- 9/1/2008 9:20:16 AM >
_____________________________
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/1/2008 9:49:44 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1934
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FatherKnowsBest
B. Hussein O. is an absolute moron. He despises the Bible though claims to be a Christian.
Check out his own words:
www.phforamerica.com
How hypocritical is it to accuse a man of taking the Bible out of context by taking parts of his speech out of context? Have you actually read the text of that speech? I have. Do you know what point he was trying to make? I do. The guy who made this video - he doesn't. Go read the speech and tell me that this guy didn't miss the point. There's a link to the text of the speech just below the video.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/1/2008 10:04:18 AM
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ljmac
Posts: 1419
Joined: 11/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HannahElizabeth
quote:
Stop making things up. Go find someone who owns a bible and see what He had to say about pharisees. Then you can stop changing the gospel to fit your prejudices.
I don't have to find someone who owns a Bible, because I have my own to study. I am not clear what you mean regarding prejudices. Prejudices against the Pharisees? Against John McCain?
quote:
Apparently you dont believe that if a person asks for forgiveness then they are forgiven? Well McCain does believe in God and im sure hes asked for forgiveness for his sins. And talking about them all day and night wont stop Jesus from forgiving him.
None of us know whether John McCain has asked for forgiveness for his sins, only that he still openly lives in them. I don't believe that a stated belief in God means one has asked for such forgiveness. Many people who say they believe in God, and even own Bibles, don't live by it.
There is an assumption that McCain is a stronger Christian than Barack Obama, possibly just because he is a Republican who has a belief in a Christian God, and is against abortion and gay rights. There are many, many other issues that God addresses in the Bible beyond those two, including adultery, which he is still living in. According to the Bible I own and yours:
Matthew 19:9
I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery.
Again, I don't understand why John McCain's actions are not considered reprehensible, just because his adultery started a while back. He is still has the same character, God is still the same God, He doesn't forget, and His Word doesn't change to protect certain politicians and not others.
John Edwards' career is over because he has a character issue due to his adultery. You can't cheat without being a liar, and that's clear to Christians and non-Christians alike. He's asked for forgiveness, and chose his wife and family over the other woman. But he will never be the president of the United States. Unlike McCain, he can't wait several years, marry Rielle Edwards and make her our First Lady.
Just like the woman caught in adultery, John McCain needs to go and sin no more. He's still in sin.
Dust it off and read about what Jesus said to and thought of the Pharisees and you won't make the claim that "His harshest words were for Christians..." It appears that you made that rash statement to make a political point. Don't condemn gays. Don't defend the unborn. Conservatives hate people.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/1/2008 10:12:34 AM
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solomonsprayer
Posts: 524
Joined: 8/1/2008
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Personally, I would rather elect a man who had genuiness of good moral convictions that was not a Christian, than someone who claimed to be a Chritsian, but was either not one or one that was compromising his or her values to be elected. 
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/1/2008 10:30:47 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5583
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McCain's attatchements to Faith are thourgh Episcopalian in his early years and as an adult he now attends a Baptist Church.
Obama's attatchments to Faith are really sketchy in his early years, and as an adult are through the "Liberation Theology" venue.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/1/2008 10:46:32 AM
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solomonsprayer
Posts: 524
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
McCain's attatchements to Faith are thourgh Episcopalian in his early years and as an adult he now attends a Baptist Church.
Obama's attatchments to Faith are really sketchy in his early years, and as an adult are through the "Liberation Theology" venue.
Thanks
RC
I always had a feeling, as stated earlier in the other thread "Is McCain's faith truly Christian," that McCain was more of a cultural Christian (someone who follows traditions and knows the intellectual side of Christianity) rather than an authentic Christian (someone who has a personal relatoinship with Christ). ...Huckabee is someone I absolutely believe is an authentic Christian.
Do you know of places where McCain talks about his faith? I'd be interested in knowing more.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/1/2008 12:14:28 PM
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solomonsprayer
Posts: 524
Joined: 8/1/2008
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Has anyone brought up or made a thread about Obama's former pastor, Jeremiah Wright, that he recently denounced this year?
The church Trinity United Church of Christ is a Christian church mixed with Black Liberation Theology, whose pastor seems like a hate-monger and racist.
His "God damn America" ..."U.S. KKK of A."....."garilic noses" (racial slur of Italians)...."Bill Clinton was riding dirty. He did us like he did Monica Lewinsky" comments just to name a few seemed so hate-filled, racist, sexually depraved, and disrespectful and unChrist-like. ....To know that Obama attended this church for 20 years, long after Oprah Winfrey left it, and only now says he had no idea his pastor had these crazy views and is now denouncing his pastor makes me skeptical.
Obama has not really addressed these issues with his past pastor/church. Even Obama's thoughts have been anti-white at times when you read his books. He doesn't just refer to oppression or racism, he stereotypes and seemingly puts whites down in his earlier books (though he can now say it was a phase). ....
How do these types of experiences, which are largely undiscussed by the media (supposely out of fear), get analyzed by those trying to understand his Christian faith?
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/1/2008 12:24:45 PM
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HannahElizabeth
Posts: 49
Joined: 5/7/2006
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quote:
You may have been using Christian as a synonym for "religious person of the day" like Christians are today. However Pharasees are too different from Christians (though it is possible a person could be both) to make the comparison meaningful.
Exactly. Thanks for clarifying the confusion I created in my first post. I was meaning to equate Pharisees with religious people of the day.
quote:
McCain's attatchements to Faith are thourgh Episcopalian in his early years and as an adult he now attends a Baptist Church.
Obama's attatchments to Faith are really sketchy in his early years, and as an adult are through the "Liberation Theology" venue.
Thanks
RC
Barack Obama lives the life of a Christian man. I know Christians whose walks I deeply respect who differ with me on abortion and gay rights. Because, for the record, I am a Christian who is pro-life and I believe that homosexuality is a sin. But these people with whom I differ lead ministries and people are coming to Christ due to their putting their faith into action. It is my understanding that Barack Obama does not adhere to every tenant of the church to which he belonged. That's common for many Christians. I'm sure you can find evidence of his work on behalf of Christ all over the map of his life.
John McCain does not live like a Christian man because he is living in sin. I'm not sure why that is not being addressed, as though people are turning their brains off because the alternative, Barack Obama, is too darn scary. How many in this thread would be willing to cast a vote for him if God Himself came down and told you that he is the man He wants in the White House?
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/1/2008 1:59:34 PM
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Rufas2000
Posts: 1302
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
Barack Obama, is too darn scary. How many in this thread would be willing to cast a vote for him if God Himself came down and told you that he is the man He wants in the White House?
I'd be very happy if God told me that Obama was His man for President. I'd love to be able to vote for a minority who is an inspirational speaker and who would help the poor as President. On a purely superficial level I like Obama. But I can't see that happening due to Obama's position on abortion (which I believe he'd have to change drastically before God approved him) and while I think his view on how to help the poor and middle class is from a good, noble place I don't think it'll work the way he thinks it will. It'll be to our detriment IMHO. But reasonable people can disagree on that one without either being morally wrong.
quote:
John McCain does not live like a Christian man because he is living in sin.
He admitted he was wrong (and he was IMHO). Granted that is easier to do after you have the woman you wanted. I don't see how leaving her or divorcing her now would help the situation. I'm sure it would be unpleasant for their children just as McCain's original divorce was painful for John and Carol McCain's (maiden name Shepp) children.
So do you really think leaving his wife Cindy is the way to rectify this?
_____________________________
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/1/2008 2:28:23 PM
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letusreason
Posts: 808
Joined: 8/30/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
quote:
ORIGINAL: PolarBear
The Bible says you must believe in your heart that Jesus died for your sins and confess with your mouth that God raised Him from the dead. Barack has done that -- at least on the surface. Whether it was from the heart is something only he and God knows.
With that in mind, maybe the OP or somebody needs to define the requirements for being a "true" Christian. And if it's not asking too much, one or two references from say, the Holy Bible rather than from the World Net Daily or somebody's blog?
-Julius
SO julius, if that was done and it was determined that Obama was a "false" Christian, would you vote for him? In other words, why do you think the requirements need to be defined?
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/1/2008 3:33:15 PM
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FatherKnowsBest
Posts: 70
Joined: 9/10/2005
From: Sandpoint, ID
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: FatherKnowsBest
B. Hussein O. is an absolute moron. He despises the Bible though claims to be a Christian.
Check out his own words:
www.phforamerica.com
How hypocritical is it to accuse a man of taking the Bible out of context by taking parts of his speech out of context? Have you actually read the text of that speech? I have. Do you know what point he was trying to make? I do. The guy who made this video - he doesn't. Go read the speech and tell me that this guy didn't miss the point. There's a link to the text of the speech just below the video.
-Dan.
Thanks Dan for pointing out that I should read his speech. Now I can say with more certainty that he is an absolute moron. He is saying that the Bible cannot be our moral guide to determine what policies or laws we should have. In the next paragraph down he says:
"This brings me to my second point. Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all. "
The only principle that can determine morality is the principle that the Bible is the infallible word of God. Any other principle has no justification. It is just man's view against man's view. I would expect an unbeliever to say what Obama says, but since he claims to be a Christian, I have the perfect right to judge him by the Bible. His views do not line up with the Bible. One who is a universalist is not a Christian.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/1/2008 3:44:04 PM
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solomonsprayer
Posts: 524
Joined: 8/1/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FatherKnowsBest
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: FatherKnowsBest
B. Hussein O. is an absolute moron. He despises the Bible though claims to be a Christian.
Check out his own words:
www.phforamerica.com
How hypocritical is it to accuse a man of taking the Bible out of context by taking parts of his speech out of context? Have you actually read the text of that speech? I have. Do you know what point he was trying to make? I do. The guy who made this video - he doesn't. Go read the speech and tell me that this guy didn't miss the point. There's a link to the text of the speech just below the video.
-Dan.
Thanks Dan for pointing out that I should read his speech. Now I can say with more certainty that he is an absolute moron. He is saying that the Bible cannot be our moral guide to determine what policies or laws we should have. In the next paragraph down he says:
"This brings me to my second point. Democracy demands that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals be subject to argument, and amenable to reason. I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will. I have to explain why abortion violates some principle that is accessible to people of all faiths, including those with no faith at all. "
The only principle that can determine morality is the principle that the Bible is the infallible word of God. Any other principle has no justification. It is just man's view against man's view. I would expect an unbeliever to say what Obama says, but since he claims to be a Christian, I have the perfect right to judge him by the Bible. His views do not line up with the Bible. One who is a universalist is not a Christian.
Hi FKB,
I have heard this line of reasoning before that Obama is using to show how he incorporates faith into politics and I too was originally dismayed by it. But...many top Christian leaders agree with it and explain why.
While it is true that the Bible is the one and only justification for what we should and should not do and that we Christians look to it for determining what we do...the point was that we cannot use this argument and expect non-Christians to also agree with us. They are not Christians and thus not morally bound (in their minds) by the Bible's teachings. I agree with those who say that we need to come up with universal reasons for why something is right and/or wrong and use those to win over the population in a democracy. ...
Don't get me wrong, I understand your side of it and I too was having the same disagreements in the past, but I think what Obama and other Christian leaders are saying is that the reality is we all come from different religious and moral systems. One cannot practically cite their own religion as moral justification for or against a law. The political leader must appeal to some universal moral reasoning to be effective. I think, if I am not mistaken, that is what he was trying to point out?
< Message edited by solomonsprayer -- 9/1/2008 5:25:59 PM >
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/1/2008 4:58:45 PM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HannahElizabeth
None of us know whether John McCain has asked for forgiveness for his sins
And you also dont know that he didnt. So why are you judging him?
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/1/2008 5:23:11 PM
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FatherKnowsBest
Posts: 70
Joined: 9/10/2005
From: Sandpoint, ID
Status: offline
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quote:
Hi FKB,
I have heard this line of reasoning before that Obama is using to show how he incorporates faith in to politics and I too was originally dismayed by it. But...many top Christian leaders agree with it and explain why.
While it is true that the Bible is the one and only justification for what we should and should not do and that we Christians look to it for determining what we do...the point was that we cannot use this argument and expect non-Christians to also agree with us. They are not Christians and thus not morally bound (in their minds) by the Bible's teachings. I agree with those who say that we need to come up with universal reasons for why something is right and/or wrong and use those to win over the population in a democracy. ...
Don't get me wrong, I understand your side of it and I too was having the same disagreements in the past, but I think what Obama and other Christian leaders are saying is that the reality is we all come from different religious and moral systems. One cannot practically cite their own religion as moral justification for or against a law. The political leader must appeal to some universal moral reasoning to be effective. I think, if I am not mistaken, that is what he was trying to point out?
I appreciate your comment. I fully realize that an unbeliever cannot accept the principle that the Bible is the infallible word of God, but at the same time they use Christian presuppositions in some things and reject them in other things. Someone's sense of morality must prevail. Should it be the non-Christians who are inconsistent, or the Christians? Should it be the Muslims who create law, or use so-called reason? If Obama actually uses reason, he would realize the superiority of the Bible as our moral guide.
Just for the record, I think McCain is as much of a heathen as Obama. But the values that he proposes are more consistent with the Christian faith. This is not a life-style issue, but an issue of legislating morality. I will not vote for either one though. The only vote my conscience will allow is for the CONSTITUTION PARTY. Some would say that this is a "throw away" vote, but as soon as Christians start voting by their conscience it will no longer be a "throw away" vote.
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RE: Is Obama's Faith Truly Christian? - 9/1/2008 5:34:04 PM
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solomonsprayer
Posts: 524
Joined: 8/1/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FatherKnowsBest
quote:
Hi FKB,
I have heard this line of reasoning before that Obama is using to show how he incorporates faith in to politics and I too was originally dismayed by it. But...many top Christian leaders agree with it and explain why.
While it is true that the Bible is the one and only justification for what we should and should not do and that we Christians look to it for determining what we do...the point was that we cannot use this argument and expect non-Christians to also agree with us. They are not Christians and thus not morally bound (in their minds) by the Bible's teachings. I agree with those who say that we need to come up with universal reasons for why something is right and/or wrong and use those to win over the population in a democracy. ...
Don't get me wrong, I understand your side of it and I too was having the same disagreements in the past, but I think what Obama and other Christian leaders are saying is that the reality is we all come from different religious and moral systems. One cannot practically cite their own religion as moral | | |
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