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RE: This life is not the real deal! - 9/2/2008 3:47:56 AM
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Little_1
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sparkleingsnow
It gives us peace and assurance. We don't have to worry about what is to come. We know we'll be in a better place.
sparkleingsnow, your post reminds me of the hope of Heaven after death:
1 Thess 4:13-18
"Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words."
< Message edited by Little_1 -- 9/2/2008 5:04:28 AM >
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RE: This life is not the real deal! - 9/2/2008 6:23:23 AM
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Little_1
Posts: 1459
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Hebrews 11:1
“Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.“ The whole of Hebrews Chapter 11 speaks about this hope which God commended many of our biblical predecessors for having, i.e. their faith which was the substance of what they hoped for yet could not actually see with the naked eye.
Hebrews 11:13-16
All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
My understanding of hope that Christians have today is a ‘present hope’ which is ours now (i.e. our salvation and the outworking of the Holy Spirit in our lives in the present). Furthermore, we have a ‘future hope’ (i.e. the substance of what we hope for) which is the resurrection or rapture (whichever comes first) and also Heaven. This being so, our hope has not just a present, but an ongoing and future orientation.
quote:
Liveloved
......Regarding your question about the hope of heaven. . . I know my perspective is different than most but Christ is my PRESENT hope. Christ in you, the hope of glory, changes my now, my everything. When He is in His rightful place (and I in mine) all is well, today, tomorrow and forever. My hope is no longer a future orientation but a present reality.  LL
"...... My hope is no longer future orientated but a present reality.” I get confused by what you are meaning by this part of your statement. Please could you explain what this means? 
< Message edited by Little_1 -- 9/2/2008 12:22:34 PM >
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RE: This life is not the real deal! - 9/2/2008 12:22:01 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1841
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What do I mean when I say my hope is no longer a future orientation but a present reality?
I Peter 1:3-5 says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
Christ IN ME is a living hope, a present hope. I think we misunderstand the word 'hope'. In this culture we understand 'hope' as a 'maybe' thing. "I hope such and such happens." "I hope I get to do such and such or I hope to go here." That is not the correct understanding of biblical hope. Biblical hope is a sure expectation. It doesn't mean that something MAY happen. It will happen and it has already happened.
So with that understanding I KNOW that Christ is living in me now and as I surrender, yield more and more to His life, the reality of Him, of that heavenly life is mine, now in the present, today. John 17:3 says, "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent." Eternal life begins as we know Jesus.
All of those mentioned in Hebrews 11 lived by faith, welcoming the promises FROM A DISTANCE (v13). We no longer have them from a distance. We have Jesus now. He is present. He is with me, in me, a very real presence to me now.
A.B. Simpson wrote a hymn called Living In The Glory. That is where I live now. The first line of his hymn says "I have found a heaven below, I am living in the glory. Oh, the joy and strength I know, living in the glory of the Lord." Other verses say such things as "storms of sorrow 'round me fall, I can sing above them all, satan cannot touch my heart, this disarms each fiery dart, I can triumph over pain, I can count each loss as gain".
Does that help you understand where I am?
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RE: This life is not the real deal! - 9/2/2008 12:35:25 PM
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Little_1
Posts: 1459
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Biblical hope is a sure expectation.
I totally agree.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
...... All of those mentioned in Hebrews 11 lived by faith, welcoming the promises FROM A DISTANCE (v13). We no longer have them from a distance. We have Jesus now. He is present. He is with me, in me, a very real presence to me now.
This I understand. Hebrews 11 is full of those who likewise knew what they hoped for was certain and not "I hope it will / or it may happen!"
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
John 17:3 says, "And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent." Eternal life begins as we know Jesus.
My understanding of this text is that it says, "this is eternal life......" and not, "this is heaven......" Eternal life is something we have the moment we are 'born again'. Heaven is somewhere we go after this life on earth is over. Whilst we may experience something of the glory of Heaven on earth, we will not fully appreciate such in all it's fullness until we are in Heaven. At the moment, we only see through a glass dimly......
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
A.B. Simpson wrote a hymn called Living In The Glory. That is where I live now. The first line of his hymn says "I have found a heaven below, I am living in the glory. Oh, the joy and strength I know, living in the glory of the Lord." Other verses say such things as "storms of sorrow 'round me fall, I can sing above them all, satan cannot touch my heart, this disarms each fiery dart, I can triumph over pain, I can count each loss as gain".
Does that help you understand where I am?
Yes - I agree we can certainly live in somewhat of the glory now for sure. I think I better understand what you are saying. Perhaps I have not explained my position very well in light of this. I look with a biblical hope (as described so well by yourself above), i.e. a "sure expectation" of Heaven as being my permanent home, i.e. I know Heaven is my final resting place (and that fact is already settled and was before the earth was even created or I was ever born) but it is still in the future because right now I have to remain here (content I hope) until the Lord calls me home.
The last verse of the famous Hymn by Thomas Chisholm "Great is Thy Faithfulness" echo what I believe:
Pardon for sin and a peace that endureth,
Thine own dear presence to cheer and to guide;
Strength for today and bright hope for tomorrow,
Blessings all mine, with ten thousand beside.
I hope we can respectfully agree to disagree regarding future hope re: Heaven; however I do appreciate you for taking the time clarifying my question. Thanks LL.
< Message edited by Little_1 -- 9/2/2008 2:14:42 PM >
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RE: This life is not the real deal! - 9/2/2008 3:05:57 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1841
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quote:
I hope we can respectfully agree to disagree regarding future hope re: Heaven; however I do appreciate you for taking the time clarifying my question. Thanks LL.
I'm not sure I see it as disagreement at all but I appreciate you and all you say, Little_1.
Another thought re: heaven.
I think much of the 'longing for' and 'hope of heaven' that we see and hear among Christians is rooted in self focus and self love. 'My life' is so hard. 'I' have been so hurt. Etc, etc. There is a longing to escape, to be away from all that bothers and hurts us.
And this morning as I spent time with the Lord, I was pondering this because I don't hear Jesus having that same longing. He listened to His Father and did His Father's will and longed for others to know the one true God. But He did not long to be away from those who rejected Him. Instead He wept for them. He was totally and always focused on His Father and then others---never Himself, even though He was very God.
I am NOT saying all of this future hope of heaven is a selfish thing and I'm certainly not saying it to you specifically, Little_1. I'm just speaking of a general observation because our 'church' has become so self absorbed and self pleasing if you KWIM.
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RE: This life is not the real deal! - 9/2/2008 4:22:13 PM
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Little_1
Posts: 1459
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
......Another thought re: heaven.
I think much of the 'longing for' and 'hope of heaven' that we see and hear among Christians is rooted in self focus and self love. 'My life' is so hard. 'I' have been so hurt. Etc, etc. There is a longing to escape, to be away from all that bothers and hurts us.
And this morning as I spent time with the Lord, I was pondering this because I don't hear Jesus having that same longing. He listened to His Father and did His Father's will and longed for others to know the one true God. But He did not long to be away from those who rejected Him. Instead He wept for them. He was totally and always focused on His Father and then others---never Himself, even though He was very God.
I am NOT saying all of this future hope of heaven is a selfish thing and I'm certainly not saying it to you specifically, Little_1. I'm just speaking of a general observation because our 'church' has become so self absorbed and self pleasing if you KWIM.
Yes - I know what you mean Liveloved and we need to guard ourselves against this as you are already aware. This is something which I was thinking about earlier today likewise. God has not called us to run away from our problems and He has not called us to any form of 'escapism' in our minds by wishing we were elsewhere (even Heaven for that matter). His grace is sufficient for us in the present and it is also sufficient for whatever trials we may face in the future.
quote:
Rick Rood
I do believe that the hope [certainty] of Heaven should remind us that this world and all that is in it is passing away and that it's glory is only for a season (1 John 2:15, 17). This is why God's Word exhorts us to set our hearts and minds on Heaven and to seek the things that are above (Col 3:1,3)......
...... Also, the hope of Heaven transforms our perspective about death. For instance, when a Christian loved ones dies, we do not grieve as those having no hope (1 Thess 4:13), rather as those who are certain of a reunion with loved ones who have gone before.
To think of the hope [certainty] of Heaven in these ways is not a bad thing and certainly not escapism. I also believe that such wonderful aspects of this hope of Heaven ought also to be an encouragement to us to "Seek first God's Kingdom and His righteousness" and serve the Lord by pointing others to this wonderful certainty of Heaven which all Christians have in Christ Jesus.
I have really enjoyed our discussion regarding 'hope' LL. Thank you. L1 xx
< Message edited by Little_1 -- 9/2/2008 4:34:39 PM >
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RE: This life is not the real deal! - 9/3/2008 6:15:40 PM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 711
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
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quote:
That's a saying I have heard about 3 times in separate occasions this past week!
Gnostics and similar cultists denigrate time and the material creation.
Christians are called to value and treasure time, and redeem the time, using the opportunities time provides for us within the created order.
The saying you cite sounds more like Buddhism than Christianity. "All that we see is maya, illusion, irrelevant to what really matters! Let's all drift off into a spiritual trance, and enjoy nirvana!"
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The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: This life is not the real deal! - 9/4/2008 1:56:40 PM
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Little_1
Posts: 1459
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
quote:
That's a saying I have heard about 3 times in separate occasions this past week!
Gnostics and similar cultists denigrate time and the material creation.
Christians are called to value and treasure time, and redeem the time, using the opportunities time provides for us within the created order.
The saying you cite sounds more like Buddhism than Christianity. "All that we see is maya, illusion, irrelevant to what really matters! Let's all drift off into a spiritual trance, and enjoy nirvana!"
RJR_fan, at first, I did not see where you were coming from regarding thinking the OP statement was kind of Bhuddist or gnositc but I realise that it can give the impression that, "Escapism into Buddism or some other form of enchantment may be worth considering because this life is not all it's cracked up to be!" However, I really don't believe for one minute that this was the intent or motivation which lay behind any of the original statements regarding this particual theme. 
The three separate sources where I heard this same (or similar statement) did not mean to defame our present existence or present work for the Lord in any way and each of the Christians would be horrified if they thought it was being misconstued in such a way.  Rather, I believe what was in fact intended was that Christians have a wonderful and certain hope of Heaven and although we are to be content in the present, we should not to get too comfortable with this life or lay up worldly treasures during our time here because it would be of more eternal value if we lived our lives laying up treasures in Heaven because this is not our final resting place and like the old saying goes:
quote:
Unknown
Life is short
Will soon be past
Only what's done
for God will last.
RJR_fan, there is one thing which is confusing me about your own statement in response to the OP question and I would really appreciate if you would please elaborate regarding the following, i.e. What 'created order' are you referring to  I have never heard of this??
quote:
ORIGINAL RJR_fan
"......using the opportunities time provides for us within the created order"
< Message edited by Little_1 -- 9/4/2008 3:26:30 PM >
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RE: This life is not the real deal! - 9/4/2008 5:56:55 PM
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RJR_fan
Posts: 711
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: RTP, in sunny NC USA
Status: online
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quote:
RJR_fan, there is one thing which is confusing me about your own statement in response to the OP question and I would really appreciate if you would please elaborate regarding the following, i.e. What 'created order' are you referring to
I appreciate your gracious spirit, and am blessed to number you among my friends.
By "The created order," I refer to the universe God made, composed of matter, energy, and time, plus an uncertain number of non-material created beings (angels and demons, e.g.). This is our assigned post, the arena in which we "work our salvation" with fear and trembling, as well as exceeding great joy.
God has hard-wired laws into His handiwork that tend to bring joy and fulfillment to those who live by them, and frustration to those who violate them. Even unbelievers, bound for eternal fire, can enjoy a measure of goodness in this life when they conform, externally, to God's requirements. We who have God's Spirit within us have insight and motivation to do quite well, indeed. We know what to do, but also why we are doing it, and Who we are doing it for.
< Message edited by RJR_fan -- 9/4/2008 6:03:30 PM >
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The future has never been shaped by majorities but rather by dedicated minorities. And free men do not wait for the future; they create it. RJR
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RE: This life is not the real deal! - 9/5/2008 3:13:33 AM
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Little_1
Posts: 1459
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RJR_fan
quote:
RJR_fan, there is one thing which is confusing me about your own statement in response to the OP question and I would really appreciate if you would please elaborate regarding the following, i.e. What 'created order' are you referring to
I appreciate your gracious spirit, and am blessed to number you among my friends.
By "The created order," I refer to the universe God made, composed of matter, energy, and time, plus an uncertain number of non-material created beings (angels and demons, e.g.). This is our assigned post, the arena in which we "work our salvation" with fear and trembling, as well as exceeding great joy.
God has hard-wired laws into His handiwork that tend to bring joy and fulfillment to those who live by them, and frustration to those who violate them. Even unbelievers, bound for eternal fire, can enjoy a measure of goodness in this life when they conform, externally, to God's requirements. We who have God's Spirit within us have insight and motivation to do quite well, indeed. We know what to do, but also why we are doing it, and Who we are doing it for.
Thank you RJR_fan - I understand better now. I am blessed too by having you and many others as my brethren and have learnt much from many of you on-site. Thank you. xx
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RE: This life is not the real deal! - 9/6/2008 5:35:35 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1841
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L1,
More thoughts on this topic. This morning I was thinking of this passage from II Corinthians 4:17-5:8.
For momentary, light affliction is producing for us an eternal weight of glory far beyond all comparison, while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven; inasmuch as we, having put it on, shall not be found naked. For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed, but to be clothed, in order that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord---for we walk by faith, not by sight---we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
This passage speaks to the groaning (which I made bold) we do while in the body which you were speaking of. However this groaning is a groaning borne out of maturity, longing to be closer to Jesus; not a groaning from being sick and tired of this earthly life. KWIM?
In fact, the passage speaks of 'inasmuch as we have put it on', which refers to putting on Christ in this life. So the more we are clothed with Him here and now, the more we are ready to be with Him in heaven.
Perhaps it is that awareness and my longing to be like Jesus but also my awareness of how much I am NOT like Him in the present that I am speaking of in my posts. The present reality of Christ is here but wanting so much more. And that I have and will have. I'm not to the place of readiness of shedding my earthly tent. . . and that's not my decision to make anyway.
You can ponder what I've been pondering (if you want to). But just wanted to share these further thoughts with you, friend. LL
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RE: This life is not the real deal! - 9/7/2008 1:38:25 AM
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Little_1
Posts: 1459
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
......For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven; inasmuch as we, having put it on, shall not be found naked. For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed, but to be clothed, in order that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge. Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord---for we walk by faith, not by sight---we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
This passage speaks to the groaning (which I made bold) we do while in the body which you were speaking of. However this groaning is a groaning borne out of maturity, longing to be closer to Jesus; not a groaning from being sick and tired of this earthly life. KWIM?
In fact, the passage speaks of 'inasmuch as we have put it on', which refers to putting on Christ in this life. So the more we are clothed with Him here and now, the more we are ready to be with Him in heaven.
Perhaps it is that awareness and my longing to be like Jesus but also my awareness of how much I am NOT like Him in the present that I am speaking of in my posts. The present reality of Christ is here but wanting so much more. And that I have and will have. I'm not to the place of readiness of shedding my earthly tent. . . and that's not my decision to make anyway. ......
You can ponder what I've been pondering (if you want to). But just wanted to share these further thoughts with you, friend. LL
This is fab. What I have highlighted from your post is what I should have included in my OP post and it would have made my question all the better to understand.
Thank you for this LL. I love it. L1
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No, books that are worth reading are generally worth re-reading as well. Thanks for the prompting to read this one. 
