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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/2/2008 3:51:34 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10529
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
quote:
ORIGINAL: shadowspring
Women who make other choices than working for a paycheck and/or birth control are not insane.
They have not been bullied into making the choices they have made.
They are not weak-minded or deluded.
They choose what they choose.
Why is that so hard to appreciate for feminists?
It is no wonder that being thus insulted and dismissed as child-like, delusional or prostitutes, many many SAHMs (who are all for equality under the law and in the workplace) avoid being associated with the term.
I am a SAHM, and proud to be so. I am a feminist, and proud to be so.
No one here has attacked women who choose to remain at home with their children; we have attacked those who dominate women by threats or brainwashing, basically by teaching them that unless the "choose" to do exactly as their fathers and husbands tell them to do, then they are against God's will and possibly going to hell.
But as a proud SAHM, I have never felt insulted by TRUE feminists, as opposed to a few lunatic extremists, none of whom I see here at CW. I have seen plenty of folks here at CW attack women who work outside the home, and follow a more egalitarian form of marriage.
Thank you Sideways. I couldn't have said it better. Most feminists I know are 100% supportive of a woman's right to choose. Anyone who denigrates a woman's choice of being a SAHM is not a true feminist IMHO because a true feminist should be supportive of this choice. And honestly, most feminists I know (including myself) are 100% behind a woman's choice to stay at home. It's a beautiful thing! My feminist sister in law is a SAHM. My feminist mom was a SAHM when we were little. My feminist grandma was a SAHM. Good gravy. No one here is looking down on SAHM.  And to lump all feminists in with the whacky few who do is insulting.
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Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/2/2008 4:00:40 PM
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stellaluna
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Just FYI, from the Houston Chronicle last week:
quote:
Bigamy charges have been filed in Texas against jailed polygamist leader Warren Jeffs and two other members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
The three men already face charges of sexual assault of a child in connection with underage marriages.
A Schleicher County grand jury on Thursday indicted Jeffs, Raymond Merril Jessop, 36, and Michael George Emack, 57.
The pair surrendered to Schleicher County authorities Friday afternoon, said the sheriff there, David Doran. Both were released after each posted $10,000 bond, Doran said.
Bigamy, being married to two people at the same time, is a felony in Texas, punishable by up to 10 years in prison.
And from the Salt Lake Tribune:
quote:
Last month, a grand jury indicted six men, including already jailed FLDS leader Warren S. Jeffs, on charges related to underage marriages.
I don't know if those are relevant to the topic or not. I would say that the FLDS case is an extreme example of even what has been discussed here.
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/2/2008 4:04:51 PM
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bluestone
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Thanks, Stella, I think they are indeed relevant.
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/2/2008 4:09:30 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10529
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
Thanks, Stella, I think they are indeed relevant.
I do too.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/2/2008 4:46:06 PM
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shadowspring
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If the earlier poster had mentioned Warren Jeffs,  or the FLDS as a religion , that is clearly relevant.
But I am pretty sure Warren Jeffs was in jail before the raid. I am under the impression that all these charges were brought before the raid. If charges (other than the civil rights violations charges the DCF faces) were filed as a result of the raid, then I am unaware of them.
The raid itself is not a logical example of Stockholm syndrome. The existence of the compound and the fact that real women choose to live there is not an example of Stockholm syndrome. You are suggesting that these women are mentally ill, so beaten down that they couldn't choose to leave, or even want to choose to leave, when they had the chance.
If those women are only staying because they are so beaten down, then what does that say for others who choose patriarchal systems, like the Amish or the Mennonites? You don't seriously believe that all these women are too damaged to make real choices, do you?
I have met many Mennonite women who continually wear dresses and head coverings, don't ride in cars, etc. They all seemed sane to me. Intelligent, witty and headstrong, even. 
My sister-in-law wears a head covering and attends a church where women are not even allowed to speak, and she likes it!  I personally would hate it, but she likes it. She is not abused or crazy. Just very, very different.
On a personal note, I have not "blown a gasket" and I do not need to take a break. That is so patronizing. It sounds like the sort of comment that's been thrown at women with opinions for ages.
I see the reference to the raid as poor logic; attributing the willingness of these women to stay with their husbands and families to insanity is not logical. If I have been unable to make my point plain, then I need to work on my communication skills. I do not need to go away and be quiet. 
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"Blessed is the man...whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law meditates day and night. He will be like a tree planted by rivers of water..." from Psalm 1
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/2/2008 5:00:01 PM
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landabee
Posts: 2868
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From: Central Florida
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quote:
That is so patronizing. It sounds like the sort of comment that's been thrown at women with opinions for ages.
I was not patronizing you.
Everyone has opinions and are entitled to them.
Shadowspring, you do realize that the majority of those of us posting in this thread are talking about DYSFUNCTIONAL patriarchal families? Right?
Regarding the FLDS Women (in for a penny....) Yes, I do think that those poor women were/are "so beaten down that they couldn't choose to leave, or even want to choose to leave, when they had the chance." To use your words. I pray for them.
quote:
then what does that say for others who choose patriarchal systems, like the Amish or the Mennonites? You don't seriously believe that all these women are too damaged to make real choices, do you?
It says nothing about those groups.
That is a tangent.
quote:
My sister-in-law wears a head covering and attends a church where women are not even allowed to speak, and she likes it! I personally would hate it, but she likes it. She is not abused or crazy. Just very, very different.
That is a CHOICE that she has made.
We are talking about women that do not have choices within DYSFUNCTIONAL families. In particular those families that practice the patriarchal model and are dysfunctional. There is nothing abusive there, judging by your report.
So, again... that is a tangent.
quote:
If I have been unable to make my point plain, then I need to work on my communication skills.
My point is: there is more than enough to be concerned about without going off tangent to find more things to draw in. The topic is huge enough.
I only suggested that "I" go away as a means of getting my passion under control. If that method isn't for you, that's okay.  But can we stay on topic?
< Message edited by landabee -- 9/2/2008 5:10:19 PM >
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"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/2/2008 5:03:32 PM
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crankius
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
I don't know if those are relevant to the topic or not. I would say that the FLDS case is an extreme example of even what has been discussed here.
While the FLDS is relevant in some respects and certainly worth mentioning, I am hoping this thread won't dwell on them.
The article in the OP is about Christian families.
There are many false religions that hold to a dysfunctional patriarchal system. FLDS is one of them.
My interest in starting this thread was to discuss the dysfunctional patriarchal influence within the Christian faith.
It didn't occur to me to clarify that in the OP--I didn't anticipate the discussion going so deeply into false religions.
If everyone could, please stick to the OP as much as possible. Mentioning these other faiths may have some benefit to the discussion, but I'm hoping we won't dwell on them.
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Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/2/2008 5:17:36 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10529
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shadowspring
If those women are only staying because they are so beaten down, then what does that say for others who choose patriarchal systems, like the Amish or the Mennonites? You don't seriously believe that all these women are too damaged to make real choices, do you?
I have met many Mennonite women who continually wear dresses and head coverings, don't ride in cars, etc. They all seemed sane to me. Intelligent, witty and headstrong, even.
My sister-in-law wears a head covering and attends a church where women are not even allowed to speak, and she likes it! I personally would hate it, but she likes it. She is not abused or crazy. Just very, very different.
Apples and oranges. Not one person here has said that. This is a thread about dysfunctional patriarchies. And sadly, they exist. I would agree with CDL that the compound was a dysfunctional one in which the women and children did not have the freedom that say a Mennonite woman does. Arranged marriages while girls are still young girls, total obedience and submission, etc all lead me to conclude that this was not a healthy patriarchy. Reading about what went on and what they teach there seems to me to be a very good example of men lording their authority over women and children - not men being servant leaders as in Scripture. Again, your comparisons are apples and oranges.
quote:
On a personal note, I have not "blown a gasket" and I do not need to take a break. That is so patronizing. It sounds like the sort of comment that's been thrown at women with opinions for ages.
No one here has patronized you. Your posts, whether intended or not, conveyed a very angry, hostile tone and you seemed to be misunderstanding what this thread is about (dysfunctional patriarchy not patriarchy) and what posters were saying. You accused folks of saying stuff that was simply not said. Most of us find it valuable in those times to step back and take a deep breath to see if maybe we have attacked someone in error and maybe see how we can post in a tone that comes across calmer and more respectful. I've had to do it many times so I'm not being snotty here.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/2/2008 5:21:35 PM
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landabee
Posts: 2868
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Central Florida
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quote:
quote:
It is now become a disease of epic proportions. We call them PDFs, Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families. The children are treated as permanent property of the parents. If they don’t marry, and many of them never have the opportunity, they remain at home as a sort of indentured servant, never rising to the status of an adult, always under authority of the head of the clan, the Patriarch Daddy. Don’t snicker. A lot of kids are hurting. And if you want to see something scary, try to conduct a betrothal with two patriarchal mothers involved. It is uggggly.
Daughter sits at home serving the younger children and doing Mama’s chores—waiting for God’s choice. Daddy and Mama hold their merchandise guardedly, waiting for a buyer who never comes.
I'd like to talk more about this dynamic present within those dysfunctional families. I visited some of the links provide a page or so back.
And I can very clearly see how young women that are groomed to "seek their father's hearts" are trapped. The women in those families actually evaluate everything by how their father would do things or prefer things to be.
quote:
My loyalties had to undergo a change. I was used to thinking that Dad knew best. Now I needed to learn to think that Pete knows best. I used to do things and invest my time in projects according to what I knew Dad would want me to do. Now I needed to be guided by what Pete wanted me to do. When faced with a problem or an option I couldn’t think, “What would Dad have done in this situation?” Now I had to think, “What would Pete do in this situation?” These were exciting times and difficult as during this state of flux—learning to replace one man’s vision with another—the devil would come around and say, “But what about what you want? What about what you think?”
LINK
If a young woman's father never deemed it time for her to marry........ she would simply be constrained to remain forever his property and under his rule.
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"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/2/2008 6:25:29 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 3630
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shadowspring
I have met many Mennonite women who continually wear dresses and head coverings, don't ride in cars, etc. They all seemed sane to me. Intelligent, witty and headstrong, even.
My sister-in-law wears a head covering and attends a church where women are not even allowed to speak, and she likes it! I personally would hate it, but she likes it. She is not abused or crazy. Just very, very different.
From what you've told us, neither of those examples is really relevant to what we're discussing here. Most Mennonite women are well aware of their options and have the opportunity to leave without severe repercussions, provided they leave before formally joining the church (and I may be mixing up the Amish and the Mennonites).
Head covering does not make a woman abused or nuts; it's a choice they make from the convictions of their hearts. Now, if someone told their adult daughter that they would go to hell and be expelled forever from the company of her parents if they did not cover, that would be dysfunctional and abusive, but I don't know anybody who is like that.
I have to agree with other posters, you seem to be mistaking those who choose to live under a healthy form of patriarchy with those who are threatened and dominated into a dysfunctional form of patriarchy.
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/2/2008 7:25:32 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
the devil would come around and say, “But what about what you want? What about what you think?”
That's the part that made me a little sad. I have no issue with an unmarried woman giving strong consideration the the opinion of her father, or a married woman the opinion of her husband. But when it's the devil who wants to even consider your own wishes and thoughts.... that's sickening.
Being selfish and always wanting your own way is one thing, being a brainless slave is another. It's a balance in marriage, to work together for each other's good and the good of the whole family.
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/2/2008 7:35:14 PM
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Sideways
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Just tonight dH and I had a good example of how things work best in our marriage:
dH has been offered the opportunity to do a side job, with the full knowledge and consent of his bosses. Now, he'd still have his full time job to do, so this side job would take up most of his nights and weekends. He did a side job like this before, and I practically didn't see him for a month, but that was when I was pregnant the first time.
Now, I'm pregnant again and have a very active toddler, too. dH is really great about spending time with our son during nights and weekends, often so I can have a break, but that couldn't happen if he takes this side job (for about a month). The money is good; we don't absolutely need it, but dH would like to take the cash and put it aside for future house repairs.
He asks me what I think of this proposal. I raise some concerns and thoughts, and he agrees he will not proceed unless those concerns are addressed, but in the end, I say okay. He wouldn't take the job if I really didn't want him to, but I would not raise a major stink unless I had really good reason.
It's gonna suck for me, to have no daddy help, but lots of moms do it completely alone. It's gonna suck for him, because he'll have no free time and limited family time, but he knows that it's all for a good reason.
We work together, we make sacrifices. We listen to each other and help each other. It's teamwork, not husband coming home and saying "This is what will happen. Period."
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This warranty does not include shark bites, bear attacks and children under five.
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/2/2008 7:43:45 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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Ruth, that is very much how it works in our household as well.
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/2/2008 10:09:31 PM
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phosadaud
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And that's how it should work. Anyone who thinks they can "rule the roost" without serious input and consideration is a fool. To me, when the Bible speaks of the 2 becoming one, that says that we each are to bring our particular giftings and talents and work united as a unit (ONE). When one person makes all the decisions and always "knows best" - that isn't unity. I know some families where the wife literally makes no decisions at all. It's like she can't be trusted to think for herself. And I'm not talking about major decisions. I'm talking every day stuff.
I'm thinking in terms of when I was in college. I was a small group leader for our college fellowship. I will always remember our college pastor telling us that our goal was to teach these young men and women how to find answers for themselves - not to depend on us to know what to do. Why? We would not always be around for them. If they depended on us, they would be lost without us. I see the same thing in a marriage relationship. A husband who really loves his wife, will want to know that even if something happens to him, she will be able to carry on. To me THAT is providing for your wife. To only be the provider while you are alive is not love. If you control all aspects of your wife's life, make all the decisions without working as a unit with your wife, and otherwise teach her that she is incapable of being an independant adult, you not only are setting her up for failure if something happens to you, but you are creating within her fear.
I've seen this in women who are the victims of domestic violence. As bad as it is in the relationship, often they are so afraid of not being able to "make it" apart from their abuser. It's so sad. 
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/3/2008 8:21:49 AM
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landabee
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quote:
You don't need a patriarchal system to have that doctrine. At least one branch of old time Wesleyan Holiness held that anything that was your need or your pleasure was evil. Man, woman, boy, girl, it did not matter. It was putting your wishes ahead of God's and was sin.
While I do agree with this, I would add:
The father is the only one in the dysfunctional patriarchal family that appears to consider no one, save himself... and purportedly God. 
The children spend their home lives with their Father's opinions and desires at the fore front of their existences.
The young girls especially are trained that their desires (all sinful) will never be realized.........as they are there to serve their father, and if "blessed with marriage" then serve their husbands' vision.
The sons are "transitioned" into manhood. On one of those sites a thirteen year old son celebrated his move into manhood. (Actually, quite sweet.......but I digress)
From that point on, the females in the family treated them as male relatives requiring respect.
What?!? An elder sister will begin to defer to her 13 year old brother? Imagine if an elder sister that has not married.......say 22 is home still. She will still serve her brother. Amazing.
Just fantastically amazing to me.
And the wife...........well that is it's own sad, sad existence.
I will say that the systematic dysfunction continues because there are many within that truly believe that their lives are God honoring. Couple that with those that know it's not, yet it benefits them........and you have enough to keep the sickness going.
_____________________________
"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/3/2008 11:27:06 AM
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HisLamb26
Posts: 359
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quote:
I will say that the systematic dysfunction continues because there are many within that truly believe that their lives are God honoring. Couple that with those that know it's not, yet it benefits them........and you have enough to keep the sickness going.
and lets not forget that not only are the females trained to be nothing more than obedient lap dogs....in the hands of the wrong type of so cal | | |
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