quote:

ORIGINAL: sue244

quote:

ORIGINAL: huangshan

Here, six word reason to support Obama over McCain:

Obama is smart, McCain is not.

Could we please come up with a different insult for Republicans besides that they are unintelligent. It was overused long before President Bush took office.

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ORIGINAL: Rufas2000

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McCain has endured mental and physical tests beyond your capacity to understand. Your disrespect reflects poorly on your character.

So you're saying he's a bad person because he questioned McCain's ability to lead this country? The poster you are responding to never once questioned McCain's military service or POW experience. He simply feels that McCain will not handle the types of crisis situations that might come up in the White House, which are different than the ones he faced in the military. I strongly disagree with him but I won't question his character because of that opinion. Its not disrespectful to say I don't think this person will be a good president.

BTW: What McCain endured is beyond just about all our capacities to understand.

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ORIGINAL: ljmac
I don't know if he's a bad person or not, but his post doesn't reflect well on him. He claimed that McCain was not able to deal with a crisis or conflict situation. He provided no evidence, just a smear that indirectly attacked his life story, particularily his military record, one of repeated and daily conflict and crisis.

quote:

As I pointed out, that isn't the only unfounded smear in the post. Honest people know that Saddam Huessin for years failed to cooperate with weapons inspectors. He got reprieve after reprieve. People almost begged him to cooperate. After all this and much more, the poster smeared GWB with a "shoot first" policy. That is simply not true.

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Obviously he's famous for his temper. I don't have a lot of respect for people who blow up easily

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ORIGINAL: colliefan

Harry Truman was also famous for his temper and he led us through WWII.

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He provided no evidence, just a smear that indirectly attacked his life story, particularily his military record, one of repeated and daily conflict and crisis.

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ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

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ORIGINAL: ljmac
I don't know if he's a bad person or not, but his post doesn't reflect well on him. He claimed that McCain was not able to deal with a crisis or conflict situation. He provided no evidence, just a smear that indirectly attacked his life story, particularily his military record, one of repeated and daily conflict and crisis.

Well, McCain hasn't always been cool-headed. I am not saying that this would make him an awful president, but I'd much rather have Obama handling things if we found ourselves in another missile crisis. Examples of McCain being less-than-cool-headed:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/19/AR2008041902224_pf.html

quote:

As I pointed out, that isn't the only unfounded smear in the post. Honest people know that Saddam Huessin for years failed to cooperate with weapons inspectors. He got reprieve after reprieve. People almost begged him to cooperate. After all this and much more, the poster smeared GWB with a "shoot first" policy. That is simply not true.

Well, at the time Bush ordered the invasion, the weapons inspectors were still there, ensuring that Iraq didn't have WMDs:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2003/03/20/t1_39.php

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ORIGINAL: Rufas2000

quote:

He provided no evidence, just a smear that indirectly attacked his life story, particularily his military record, one of repeated and daily conflict and crisis.

I agree with the no evidence part but I'm not seeing the life story and military record part. His post mostly referred to his time in the Senate and his two presidential campaigns. The issues were wanting to go to war, his temper and his switching positions on issues. The first two took place during McCain's time in the Senate and the third has happened during his two presidential campaigns.

The only connection I can make with his post to McCain's military experience and POW experience is that in 2000 some people smeared that McCain was hot tempered (and perhaps a little bit insane) due to the trauma of his POW experience. Obviously that is distasteful but I just don't see enough evidence in his post to indicate that he was trying to do that.

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ORIGINAL: ljmac

McCain demonstrated over and over again his superior ability to lead during times of crises and conflict.

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ORIGINAL: huangshan

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ORIGINAL: ljmac

McCain demonstrated over and over again his superior ability to lead during times of crises and conflict.

When?

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ORIGINAL: ljmac

quote:

ORIGINAL: huangshan

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

McCain demonstrated over and over again his superior ability to lead during times of crises and conflict.

When?

After his plane was shot, he ejected and broke one knee and both arms and nearly drowned. Then he was speared repeatedly by the scummy people who found him. The commies put him in solitary confinement for more than two years. No windows, two small holes for ventilation and a tin roof just inches above his head. That psychological test proved his mental and emotional fitness far beyond anything he'll find in the oval office.

Add to his solitary confinement beatings that broke multiple bones, such little food that his weight dropped below 100 pounds, and visits from American traitors (liberals) who used them for Communist propoganda.

In a PR move the communists asked McCain if he'd like to go home. He said no, he wouldn't cooperate. They asked again. He said no. They asked again. He said no. They said now you're really going to get it and things got a lot worse.

How about some other examples of the top of my head:
- McCain-Feingold
- The early call for the surge in Iraq, something so-called foreign policy expert Joe Biden said would be a failure.
- He adopted his first wife's children.
- He adopted a poor black child.
- When another couple wanted to adopt a child in need of much medical care, but were unable to pay for it, McCain and his wife did.

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ORIGINAL: sue244

quote:

ORIGINAL: huangshan

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ORIGINAL: Thessa

Ill bet you looked half of what you just wrote on the internet anyways.

That's what people tend to do.

I thought, at least. Or... am I the only non-psychic here?

...

Here, six word reason to support Obama over McCain:

Obama is smart, McCain is not.

Could we please come up with a different insult for Republicans besides that they are unintelligent. It was overused long before President Bush took office.

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ORIGINAL: ljmac
After his plane was shot,...

quote:

ORIGINAL: saved9201

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac
After his plane was shot,...

You could also argue that if he was any good, he wouldn't have gotten shot down in the first place, wouldn't have gotten caught, and would have escaped.

For three years, I investigated cases of American Servicemembers captured during the Vietnam War. MOST pilots completed numerous missions without getting shot down, MOST pilots who got shot down were rescued before they were caught and MANY more escaped. As far as his decision not to leave the camp early....according to the Code of Conduct, he had no choice but to stay. He had already broken one rule by signing a confession for being a war criminal. Had he returned early and violated the code, his military and political career would have been over. In other words, what McCain did was what he was expected to do - nothing special. I can tell you REAL stories of heroism in Vietnam and in the POW camps. Real heroes who saved their fellow soldiers lives by their actions. Making McCain into a war hero, IMHO, does an incredible disservice to those brave and skillful pilots who flew countless missions into enemy territory and actually helped to destroy the enemy instead of destroying multi-million dollar planes. Yes, that was plural. Reportedly, it wasn't the last one he wrecked.

Don't want to sound cold, but I'm just keeping it real.

- Julius

quote:

ORIGINAL: huangshan

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

quote:

ORIGINAL: huangshan

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

McCain demonstrated over and over again his superior ability to lead during times of crises and conflict.

When?

After his plane was shot, he ejected and broke one knee and both arms and nearly drowned. Then he was speared repeatedly by the scummy people who found him. The commies put him in solitary confinement for more than two years. No windows, two small holes for ventilation and a tin roof just inches above his head. That psychological test proved his mental and emotional fitness far beyond anything he'll find in the oval office.

Add to his solitary confinement beatings that broke multiple bones, such little food that his weight dropped below 100 pounds, and visits from American traitors (liberals) who used them for Communist propoganda.

In a PR move the communists asked McCain if he'd like to go home. He said no, he wouldn't cooperate. They asked again. He said no. They asked again. He said no. They said now you're really going to get it and things got a lot worse.

How about some other examples of the top of my head:
- McCain-Feingold
- The early call for the surge in Iraq, something so-called foreign policy expert Joe Biden said would be a failure.
- He adopted his first wife's children.
- He adopted a poor black child.
- When another couple wanted to adopt a child in need of much medical care, but were unable to pay for it, McCain and his wife did.

Those are all more or less noble things, but my "when" was in reference to your citing his ability to lead in a time of crisis and conflict, and I don't see how any of those are pertinent to leading, beyond possibly McCain-Feingold.

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ORIGINAL: ljmac

Leadership by example.

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ORIGINAL: huangshan

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

Leadership by example.

But then any characteristic that deserves repeating becomes “leadership", and the word just becomes a synonym for doing good, and leadership loses meaning.

That's certainly nice, but how that is a substantive answer to "what leadership"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

quote:

ORIGINAL: saved9201

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac
After his plane was shot,...

You could also argue that if he was any good, he wouldn't have gotten shot down in the first place, wouldn't have gotten caught, and would have escaped.

For three years, I investigated cases of American Servicemembers captured during the Vietnam War. MOST pilots completed numerous missions without getting shot down, MOST pilots who got shot down were rescued before they were caught and MANY more escaped. As far as his decision not to leave the camp early....according to the Code of Conduct, he had no choice but to stay. He had already broken one rule by signing a confession for being a war criminal. Had he returned early and violated the code, his military and political career would have been over. In other words, what McCain did was what he was expected to do - nothing special. I can tell you REAL stories of heroism in Vietnam and in the POW camps. Real heroes who saved their fellow soldiers lives by their actions. Making McCain into a war hero, IMHO, does an incredible disservice to those brave and skillful pilots who flew countless missions into enemy territory and actually helped to destroy the enemy instead of destroying multi-million dollar planes. Yes, that was plural. Reportedly, it wasn't the last one he wrecked.

Don't want to sound cold, but I'm just keeping it real.

- Julius

Good Americans restrain themselves when it comes to condemning fallen and wounded soldiers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: saved9201

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

quote:

ORIGINAL: saved9201

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac
After his plane was shot,...

You could also argue that if he was any good, he wouldn't have gotten shot down in the first place, wouldn't have gotten caught, and would have escaped.

For three years, I investigated cases of American Servicemembers captured during the Vietnam War. MOST pilots completed numerous missions without getting shot down, MOST pilots who got shot down were rescued before they were caught and MANY more escaped. As far as his decision not to leave the camp early....according to the Code of Conduct, he had no choice but to stay. He had already broken one rule by signing a confession for being a war criminal. Had he returned early and violated the code, his military and political career would have been over. In other words, what McCain did was what he was expected to do - nothing special. I can tell you REAL stories of heroism in Vietnam and in the POW camps. Real heroes who saved their fellow soldiers lives by their actions. Making McCain into a war hero, IMHO, does an incredible disservice to those brave and skillful pilots who flew countless missions into enemy territory and actually helped to destroy the enemy instead of destroying multi-million dollar planes. Yes, that was plural. Reportedly, it wasn't the last one he wrecked.

Don't want to sound cold, but I'm just keeping it real.

- Julius

Good Americans restrain themselves when it comes to condemning fallen and wounded soldiers.

I'm not condemning him. I'm just doing like these guys, keeping it real. You remember them, right?

"In 2004, a political 527 organization called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (later called Swift Vets and POWs for Truth), composed of Vietnam veterans who served on swift boats, formed with the intent of opposing the presidential candidacy of John Kerry. Kerry himself had served for four months as a swift boat commander in Vietnam (earning during that service three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star, and a Bronze Star[3]). The group, using statements of swift boat veterans and Kerry's own 1971 anti-war statements (Kerry had become a spokesman for the anti-war group Vietnam Veterans Against the War), produced a series of television ads and a bestselling book that sought to discredit Kerry's military record and patriotism and characterize him as unfit for the presidency."

- Julius

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

quote:

ORIGINAL: saved9201

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

quote:

ORIGINAL: saved9201

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac
After his plane was shot,...

You could also argue that if he was any good, he wouldn't have gotten shot down in the first place, wouldn't have gotten caught, and would have escaped.

For three years, I investigated cases of American Servicemembers captured during the Vietnam War. MOST pilots completed numerous missions without getting shot down, MOST pilots who got shot down were rescued before they were caught and MANY more escaped. As far as his decision not to leave the camp early....according to the Code of Conduct, he had no choice but to stay. He had already broken one rule by signing a confession for being a war criminal. Had he returned early and violated the code, his military and political career would have been over. In other words, what McCain did was what he was expected to do - nothing special. I can tell you REAL stories of heroism in Vietnam and in the POW camps. Real heroes who saved their fellow soldiers lives by their actions. Making McCain into a war hero, IMHO, does an incredible disservice to those brave and skillful pilots who flew countless missions into enemy territory and actually helped to destroy the enemy instead of destroying multi-million dollar planes. Yes, that was plural. Reportedly, it wasn't the last one he wrecked.

Don't want to sound cold, but I'm just keeping it real.

- Julius

Good Americans restrain themselves when it comes to condemning fallen and wounded soldiers.

I'm not condemning him. I'm just doing like these guys, keeping it real. You remember them, right?

"In 2004, a political 527 organization called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (later called Swift Vets and POWs for Truth), composed of Vietnam veterans who served on swift boats, formed with the intent of opposing the presidential candidacy of John Kerry. Kerry himself had served for four months as a swift boat commander in Vietnam (earning during that service three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star, and a Bronze Star[3]). The group, using statements of swift boat veterans and Kerry's own 1971 anti-war statements (Kerry had become a spokesman for the anti-war group Vietnam Veterans Against the War), produced a series of television ads and a bestselling book that sought to discredit Kerry's military record and patriotism and characterize him as unfit for the presidency."

- Julius

Let's not forget the timeline. After his very short stint in Vietnam Kerry went around the world telling anyone who would listen that his comrades were guilty of widespread war crimes, torture and murder. He could not substantiate what were clearly lies. When he held his Winter Soldier conference in Detroit, a meeting of soldiers identifying American war crimes, he depended upon fantasy. Some of the soldiers couldn't substantiate their accusations. Some had never been to Vietnam. Some weren't even who they said they were. Some weren't even in the military. The Detroit Free Press did an expose on the meetings.

Swift boat sailors opposition to Kerry originated way back to Kerry's incredible accusations. They had a right to defend themselves and their fellow soldiers.

Whatever you think about John McCain, he would never slander his fellow soldiers. That domain belongs to liberals like John Kerry.

quote:

Good Americans restrain themselves when it comes to condemning fallen and wounded soldiers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

George Washington was loved by his troops not for his strategic ability, but for his willingness to endure the hardships and dangers of war. They would have done anything for him, which included spending the winter at Valley Forge. It was leadership by action, not mere words.

That's John McCain.

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ORIGINAL: huangshan

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

George Washington was loved by his troops not for his strategic ability, but for his willingness to endure the hardships and dangers of war. They would have done anything for him, which included spending the winter at Valley Forge. It was leadership by action, not mere words.

That's John McCain.

George Washington actually led troops. The question is still there if you care to answer it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

quote:

ORIGINAL: huangshan

quote:

ORIGINAL: ljmac

George Washington was loved by his troops not for his strategic ability, but for his willingness to endure the hardships and dangers of war. They would have done anything for him, which included spending the winter at Valley Forge. It was leadership by action, not mere words.

That's John McCain.

George Washington actually led troops. The question is still there if you care to answer it.

I get it. I'll tell you everything McCain has done with his life so you can define leadership to exclude everything that he's done.

At the time he was shot down in Vietnam, McCain's rank was Lieutenant Commander, which is roughly the equivalent of an army major.

Then when he was well enough, McCain became commanding officer of a Replacement Air Group, which consisted of military staff of over 1000 and 75 planes.

He never did what he did.

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ORIGINAL: ljmac

McCain demonstrated over and over again his superior ability to lead during times of crises and conflict.

quote:

But I have to nitpick. You made a bold statement. Back it up. What were the crises and conflicts that he led his troops under? And if you're feeling charitable, how was his ability to lead "superior"?