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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 3:28:23 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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You DO have a tainted view, though, because you seem to feel that large families who take care of themselves are a rarity. What we are saying is that you only think they are rare because you work with only those who need help.
The Duggars didn't have a large real estate company when they started having kids. I wasn't divorced when I started. You don't know what is going to happen in the future, and some of these large families may have been able to take care of themselves previously.
Edited TOS 9
< Message edited by Kath -- 8/27/2008 5:07:22 PM >
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 3:39:03 PM
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bluestone
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Use some common sense. If you have children and keep having them, knowing you can not take care of them, and someone else has to bail you out, do you think that is fair?
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 3:59:33 PM
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elastic
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I agree with what bluestone is trying to say. I don't think she is making generalizations about all large families, just those that use handouts as a crutch.
she did state that she understands that people fall on hard times and that's not what she is talking about. she's talking about when people are currently going through that hard time of gov't assist and church handouts and instead of putting off having another child until they are back on their feet, they go ahead with plans to conceive.
i have been told on this very board (in a very around TOS way) that because I use BC, I am not putting my trust in God.
ok  whatever. i'm glad people who think this have that opinion, even though it is 100% wrong.
it's funny that some people who don't believe in BC are perfectly ok with fertility treatments. wouldn't that be the same as not trusting God with your fertility?
and that's off topic, but i just wanted to say that i live in a very poor neighborhood and i do see families like this, where women stay home with a house full of kids, and they are on welfare or living hand to mouth. they don't want to work, and they have no plans for getting off of assistance.
as long as someone else is carrying their burden, they don't have a reason to work or be responsible.
again, not talking about someone who has fallen on hard times. these are mostly girls with multiple pregnancies, and they knew during their first pregnancy that they couldn't afford to have children, yet they keep on going.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 4:08:02 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
i have been told on this very board (in a very around TOS way) that because I use BC, I am not putting my trust in God.
Yeah... me too, and not just by people on this board.
Part of the problem is not just the abusers of the system, but the broken system itself that allows people to be abusers.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 4:30:26 PM
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phosadaud
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Just jumping in: I think some of you need to say a short prayer for clear eyes and really read carefully what Bluestone is posting. She is not saying what some of you think she is saying. She never said people with large families are bad or that smaller families are "better" and without problems. Some of you seem a bit sensitive about this, for whatever reason. For this reason, I think it would be good to step back for a moment, take a deep breath, say a short prayer, and start over so you don't make the mistake of twisting her words and wrongly condemning her. I have to do this myself from time to time, so I'm not trying to be snotty here.
She has some excellent points that really do need to be looked at. The fact is, big or small, we need to care more about our children and meeting their needs, than we do about how big we can get our family. It sounds like everyone here is doing just that so I'm not sure why some seem to be getting so upset.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 4:55:30 PM
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Tinkerbell_
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And that is true, however what I get out of what Bluestone is saying is that some couples continue to have children even after needing assistance for the ones they have. These are the couples that I have a problem with. I understand hard times happen to everyone, but please do be careful when you are going through them. If the government is stepping in to help your needs, then perhaps you need to wait until you no longer need assistance to have more children.
I have a HUGE problem with single women going out and sleeping irresponsibly, getting pregnant then shrugging it off because it means more welfare money per child. There's something seriously wrong with that line of thinking.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 4:59:39 PM
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phosadaud
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peculiar_lady2 - But the thread is about family size and whether there is a point at which a family becomes too big - not about abuse of public assistance. All bluestone is saying is that if you do not have the means (and I would argue this could be financial, emotional, psychological, etc) to care for a growing number of kids, maybe you should slow the baby factory down a bit (sorry... bad joke...  ). So really, it's not about how many kids, but what is too big. For some, that may be 1 kid. For another, there isn't a limit. So, the person with 1 kid who is abusing the system has a family that may be too big for them. And a single who has no kids but abuses the system, maybe shouldn't be having kids until they get it together.
And I'm glad you aren't upset - I didn't think you were one of the ones getting upset. Some do seem to be though. 
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 5:03:27 PM
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peculiar_lady2
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quote:
peculiar_lady2 - But the thread is about family size and whether there is a point at which a family becomes too big - not about abuse of public assistance. All bluestone is saying is that if you do not have the means (and I would argue this could be financial, emotional, psychological, etc) to care for a growing number of kids, maybe you should slow the baby factory down a bit (sorry... bad joke... ). So really, it's not about how many kids, but what is too big. For some, that may be 1 kid. For another, there isn't a limit. So, the person with 1 kid who is abusing the system has a family that may be too big for them. And a single who has no kids but abuses the system, maybe shouldn't be having kids until they get it together.
I completely agree....sorry if it seems I am contradicting, I am not....haven't gotten much sleep in the last ten weeks (new little one) so some days I can't make a comprehensible thought...lol
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 5:39:17 PM
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macokjc
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So many different points, it's hard to know what ones to reply to......
I am the second oldest of 7 - and we never wanted for much. There were times my dad worked two jobs, and we were the last on the block to have a vcr and microwave, but our needs were met. All 7 of us grew up to learn the value of family and hard work. My husband and I currently have 4 1/2 and are working hard to pass on these same values.
I think that there are two different categories here. While I despise so much of our hard earned dollars going to welfare programs (our little county of PA has often been called the welfare capital of the US), I feel the fault lies as much with the government as anybody. They keep handing out the freebies - so people keep taking them. We are living in an age where clearly it is too much to expect the general welfare populations to understand choices vs consequences, so I don't expect much change in those situations until it is regulated by the government.
On the other hand - there is a second group of people being "discussed", and those are Believers - who, in my opinion, ought to know better. I DO know several large families that keep having children w/out any means of support. Their reasoning is "if God allows me to have children, it must be His will and He will support them." They expect the church and the government to supply their needs while they keep on giving birth. I don't think that this is right. The Bible clearly talks about this lack of responsibility. Whether or not it is right for Christians to be on welfare is probably a different topic; but it does bug me when Christians do not even try to provide for their own and take advantage of the situation. I know several families that are on WIC but yet have large cable, cell phone, eating out bills, etc. I also know families on WIC that get everything that they are "allowed" even if they don't use it (their kids don't drink juice or milk etc.) just because they can.
I also get "bugged" when my neighbors tell me how lucky I am to be a SAHM. We have been blessed and I am very thankful for that. However, we have scrimped and saved with no tv, no cell phones, goodwill clothes, 1 car, no vacations, etc. ... to make that possible. Meanwhile they sit their with brand new cars, designer clothes, yearly Disney vacations, etc.... and wonder why they have to work. That's our choice, and I don't regret it - but it's hard work - not luck.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 8:36:44 PM
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pbaribeault
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In Canada, we have government support systems for all families that are tax funded. What a family receives is based on 2 different programs. One is the "Child Tax Benefit" which is based on family income and number of children under 18... the lower your income, the more you get. The other is the "Choice in Childcare Amount" which is $100 per month for each child under 6.
What this means is that NOBODY in Canada is raising kids without the support of the rest of the taxpayers in this country. This is consistent with the community-spirit values of our country, that part of the taxation system is supposed to ease the burdens of those who are in difficult phases of life. To me this seems completely just. I'd consider turning down that source of money (I think you might be able to, if you tried) to be poor stewardship of available resources.
However, larger families obviously receive more than smaller families. For example, a family with 12 kids (5 of them under 6) and one wage earner making a moderate professional wage would be getting about $1000 per month direct deposited into the account of the lower income parent. Which is pretty good cash, considering that larger families tend to spend less per-child (even thought they spend more over-all, they can buy bulk, hand down, share, and the mom has usually picked up some skills in frugality).
With this (plus actual welfare-type stuff for hard times) even families large that are moderate in their spending do not seem to fall into the disrepair and charity-seeking that many of you are referencing. So, to answer the original question: if the parents can cope, reproduce away. We, the Canadian people, have OK'd our government to share the wealth and help each other care for all of our children.
Myself, I appreciate my $270 per month, and I'm glad that I live in a country that is not so minded towards 'independence' that it fails to make sense out of sharing taxation money back to ordinary individuals and families... without making it seem shameful.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 8:53:52 PM
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bluestone
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I am glad I don't live under Socialism.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 8:57:30 PM
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phosadaud
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I'm a better steward with my money than the government is so I'd rather keep it to begin with than have to give it all to the government and have them turn around and give some of it back to me...
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 9:09:29 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
I am glad I don't live under Socialism.
You and me both, girlfriend.
I also don't believe in "it takes a village"... what a load of hogwash.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 9:29:43 PM
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pbaribeault
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It doesn't "take a village" but it's nice to lend a hand. I value a society that believes in that enough to have policies about it. There are also write offs for students, income for seniors and free basic medicare. We receive refugees and send international aid for disasters. I don't mind that my taxes support these things.
Number crunching reveals: running the example of my own family, in US our marginal tax rate would be 33%, and in Canada it is 36% -- so it's not like we're handing over that much more money... We just have different spending priorities.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 9:32:34 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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Well, I believe solidly in capitalism... I would be a hard sell for any form of socialism(although the US has alot of socialist programs already).
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 9:40:49 PM
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karlie
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Attention: Moderator's Note:
This is a reminder to please get back on, and stay on topic. This thread is not about socialism, capitalism, or government programs...it's about family size. Any further off-topic posts will be deleted. Thank you.
Please email community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments or concerns.
Please do not respond to this post within the community or PM me.
Now back to your regularly scheduled topic :)
Karlie,
Forums Moderator
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/28/2008 7:53:25 AM
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P31W
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I could care less how many Children a person has. What I care about is when your desire requires that "I" work to support that family.
If you knowing have even one child and cannot afford to give them food then you are probably not in a position to raise them with any common sense either. You are foolish and ignorant in my book. You need to have that baby removed from your home.
Thank God my parents realized that I would 'need food" and planned to work 6 days a week double shifts inorder to provide it to me. That is what "biblical love" is about. Not some pie in the sky say love three times and click your hills and call taking gov. handouts God's being your provider.
God has nothing good to say about fools in His word. He talks about taking a rod to their backs.
I asked my grandmother who gave birth to only three children back in the 1900 why she only had "3" and not a large family like others did she replies with great wisdom - strike that - with common sense, "Three was all that I knew I could support".
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/28/2008 8:05:18 AM >
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/28/2008 7:56:27 AM
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P31W
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quote:
It doesn't "take a village" but it's nice to lend a hand.
Scripture teaches us that we as christians are to reach out to the poor who are truly poor. We are not told to take money from "lost folks" and give it to our own hungry children. We Christians are to turn to our family and church when we are in times of need. Not the lost person who laughs at our God because they say "I" am your provider not your "god".
Even scripture gives us "guidelines" for whom we ARE AND ARE NOT to give help to. The purpose is for them to "suffer" or "lead productive lives".
Government taking from those who are prudent to give to the foolish is not a "helping hand". It's done by force.
BTW this is the 4th thread I am involved in that deals with some people's desire to avoid taking personal responsibility for their actions. It's sad that the WORLD sees so many CHrisitians doing that. No one is fooled. Expecially those who must man up and take responsibility for the slackers and willful ignorant people.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/28/2008 8:31:53 AM >
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/28/2008 8:37:42 AM
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P31W
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quote:
Sooo... you saying that some people should never be born because their parents have sin in their lives?
The topic is not the child rather is a couple ready to become parents Some people are simply not parent material. So these people who are having sex but cannot afford to provide for a child - they have the possibility of producing - need to stop having sex.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/28/2008 8:53:58 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
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quote:
The Duggars didn't have a large real estate company when they started having kids.
They were more than able to support their first child. After he was born they began to discover God's way of handling money and purposed to become debt free and live debt free.
They did not blindly go into having children knowing it would put them into debt or force them onto the welfare roles. They "purposed" to be obedient to God in "all" areas of thier life....not just their sex life and producing babies.
These parents are also teaching their children how to be responsible adults with God's resources. (not kids who are in their 20' and 30's just having babies with no idea that with that come responsibility)
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