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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 9:18:18 PM
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Consecrated2God
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That was a mistake. I'll fix my typo.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 9:32:21 PM
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landabee
Posts: 2868
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quote:
The only quibble I've had (and maybe it's just a misunderstanding people and they weren't saying what they thought they were) is with the idea that it's wrong or sinful to get pregnant if you are poor.
I think perhaps you have misunderstood. Finances is but one area being debated, albeit the most hotly debated.
From post 32:
quote:
its all about knowing ones limit, emotionally, physically or financially.
Post 62:
quote:
But the thread is about family size and whether there is a point at which a family becomes too big - not about abuse of public assistance. All bluestone is saying is that if you do not have the means (and I would argue this could be financial, emotional, psychological, etc)
Post 194:
quote:
This is about the behavior of adults..not the children who result from that behavior.
A family is "too big" when the parents aren't willing and/or able to support that many children spiritually, emotionally, physically and financially. I don't buy lines like: "Dad doesn't work two jobs because he then wouldn't have time to be the "spiritual leader" of the home.
My response in post 199:
quote:
Those that lack responsibility and a commitment to parent their children are the ones that I think of when I think of poor choices.
As pointed out earlier: It's not up to us to mandate how many children a family should have. It is up to the parents.
But it is also up to the parents to be wise stewards, parents, providers, guides of the children that they choose to have.
Hard times befall the best of us. I honestly can say that because of divorce, the first three years of my kidlets lives, I DID receive food stamps.
But I HAD NO MORE children. Do I love my children? Yes.... In fact I loved them enough to get trained in a job to support them, get off assistance and purpose to have no more.
Emotionally as a single parent, I know that I could not "be there" emotionally for more. (As a Christian, I know that extramarital sex is out of the question...but that is beside the point)
But had I remarried earlier, MANY conversations would have taken place before the consideration of purposely conceiving/not preventing would have taken place. They would have revolved around all areas of supportive parenting that the future and current children would require.
That is the sort of thing that I think folks wish adults that refuse to parent but continue to birth should think about.
Post 205:
quote:
Laura answered this well, I think. The past is the past, and there's nothing we can do about that. What frustrates some folks is when a family is at the point where the children are not being adequately cared for, and they still continue to have more.
Once a child is conceived, that's it, you deal the situation as best you can, and most Christians don't mind helping out their neighbor, but when the same scenario is replayed over and over again, that does start to upset people.
So, no, even if a family is currently in a situation where they can't care for their kids, it does not mean we're saying that they shouldn't have had the kids they have; we're saying they should hold off on further children until their situation changes.
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"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 9:35:43 PM
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kohls356
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I don't think people have said it is wrong or sinful to have children if they are poor. There is a difference, to me anyway, about being poor, and not being able to take care of your family. I have seen families that would be considered poor but are still able to provide for their families. It is when a couple knows they can't provide for another child, with the income they have now or on aid, but don't try to prevent another pregnancy. I really don't know how any clearer that can be.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 9:37:23 PM
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kohls356
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It also isn't just financially able to support a family but emotionally and physically as well.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 9:37:29 PM
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phosadaud
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
This is why I'm just not following you. I think you are saying what the rest of us are saying, just in a different way but it seems like you think some of us have bad attitudes and I'm not understanding why when it seems like we're saying the same thing - just maybe using a different way of saying it. It's like a quibble over language rather than substance.
The only quibble I've had (and maybe I'm just misunderstanding people and they weren't saying what I thought they were) is with the idea that it's wrong or sinful to get pregnant if you are poor.
I could be wrong, but I don't believe anyone is saying that. Being poor doesn't mean you can't provide for your kids or that you are a bad parents. Some of the best parents I know, have very, very little. Yet, they do what they need to do to care for their kids. They may live in a small apartment, never eat out or take vacations, take the bus everywhere, work 2 jobs each, and are the kings and queens of garage sale shopping. Yet, their kids have a roof over their heads, food in their tummies and clothes on their backs. On occasion, they may need some extra help, but they do everything in their power to care for their family without other people helping. That may be very meager, but they are taking care of their kids. They make it work - no matter how hard it is. I have IMMENSE respect for people I know like that.
That is different from someone where the dad floats from minimum wage part time job to minimum wage part time job, can afford to smoke 2 packs of cigarettes a day, but their kids only eat ramen and potatoes all day, everyday, the only clothes their kids have are ones their biblestudy gets for them and they get all kinds of government assistance. Baby boy has asthma from the smoking which requires expensive medical treatment and dad goes parties until he is sloshed on the weekends.
That is a real life example of someone I know.
Those kids are suffering and when mom tries to get pregnant again because they say they are about to lose their WIC benefits, yeah, it breaks my heart and I can't say I think it's ok.
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~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 9:42:45 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4932
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quote:
I could be wrong, but I don't believe anyone is saying that.
People have said it's wrong to get pregnant if you are foodstamps, though. I don't think it's wrong to pregnant if you are married. The wisdom of it could be debated, but it's not wrong.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 10:08:52 PM
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LaurainAL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
I could be wrong, but I don't believe anyone is saying that.
People have said it's wrong to get pregnant if you are foodstamps, though. I don't think it's wrong to pregnant if you are married. The wisdom of it could be debated, but it's not wrong.
Let me ask this then, could it be wrong for a married couple to purposefully get pregnant if they are HIV positive, or if it is known that the pregnancy can result in great harm to the mother?
I'm not trying to be dense, but I just don't understand your argument that all married people should not try and prevent a pregnancy. Are you saying that?
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 10:52:14 PM
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landabee
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
I could be wrong, but I don't believe anyone is saying that.
People have said it's wrong to get pregnant if you are foodstamps, though. I don't think it's wrong to pregnant if you are married. The wisdom of it could be debated, but it's not wrong.
Since we are going all in for semantics and subtle shadings of meanings I'll cut to the chase.
What is the opposite of wisdom?
That's our point.
_____________________________
"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 10:54:32 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
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quote:
ORIGINAL: landabee
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
I could be wrong, but I don't believe anyone is saying that.
People have said it's wrong to get pregnant if you are foodstamps, though. I don't think it's wrong to pregnant if you are married. The wisdom of it could be debated, but it's not wrong.
Since we are going all in for semantics and subtle shadings of meanings I'll cut to the chase.
What is the opposite of wisdom?
That's our point.
Bee nails it.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
10.13.08
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 11:27:13 PM
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kohls356
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
I could be wrong, but I don't believe anyone is saying that.
People have said it's wrong to get pregnant if you are foodstamps, though. I don't think it's wrong to pregnant if you are married. The wisdom of it could be debated, but it's not wrong.
Being on foodstamps would mean that one is not able to provide food for their family. If they can't provide food for the family they have now why would they add to it by having another child to provide for. I will say I do not think it is wise to leave it to chance to have another child during a time they can't feed the ones they already have.
Ok, lets say it isn't wrong, but if it is not wise then what is it, foolish?
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 1:16:54 AM
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Karaboo2
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LaurainAL
Let me ask this then, could it be wrong for a married couple to purposefully get pregnant if they are HIV positive, or if it is known that the pregnancy can result in great harm to the mother?
Sometimes what 'could' cause harm actually heals ... I have 5 children. After I had my 3rd, I had some major post-partum complications, and it was discovered that I had stage one uterine cancer. I underwent several months of chemotherapy. It was strongly suggested that I not have any more children, as having more children could theoretically exacerbate the cancer. More than once I was told I should "get fixed" so I couldn't have more kids. Well, dh and I didn't think our family was complete with 3 kids, and that we would like a 4th. 4 weeks after finishing chemo, I had a biopsy ... no change whatsoever in the cancerous cells. 6 weeks after the chemo, I became pregnant with our 4th child. After having him, I was re-biopsied. All of the hormones secreted during pregnancy suppressed the cancerous cells. I still had a few abnormal cells, but it was around 2% of the original number of abnormal. The doc was shocked. He even commented that my 4th child saved me (for at least a few years) from needing surgery.
I was going to post something else, but now I've forgotten, as it is quite late and I'm really tired. If I remember tomorrow, I'll come back and post.
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Kara
Tea Drinkers Anonymous
<-- Caleb
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 8:23:31 AM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4932
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quote:
I'm not trying to be dense, but I just don't understand your argument that all married people should not try and prevent a pregnancy. Are you saying that?
No, I'm not saying that. I'm trying to prevent pregnancy myself. But if a married couple doesn't want to prevent pregnancy for any reason, it's not sinful for them to do that. I especially wouldn't want to cause them to stumble in their faith by trying to convince them to do something they are convicted against doing. And like Kara's story shows, sometimes what we might look as being foolish or wise is only from a human standpoint. Only God can see the whole picture.
This is the flip side of the QF debate. I know many of you ladies are tired of hearing that you aren't in God's will for limiting conception. I understand that. But neither are our QF sisters not in God's will for not limiting conception. They are trying to follow God's will, too, and we are all working out these issues in our own lives and trying to make decisions that honor God. That's all that matters.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 8:36:15 AM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
But neither are our QF sisters not in God's will for not limiting conception. They are trying to follow God's will, too, and we are all working out these issues in our own lives and trying to make decisions that honor God. That's all that matters.
So a couple may be "in God's will" for not limiting conception, but they are "out of God's will" for not providing for their own family, which the Bible speaks very strongly against.
I think what you're saying is that as a church body we should try to help them reach a point where they can provide for their ever expanding brood, but in the meantime we should never encourage a couple to limit conception if they say God has told them not to?
Humans have limits to their patience, so how long should a church financially support a QF family, while we are waiting for them to come into God's will and support themselves? As we've already said, nobody wants children already born to starve or go naked, so there's a limit to how far we can take "tough love".
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 8:38:06 AM
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Mrs.Wifey
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Good post, Ruth. I'm one of those doctor skeptics and faithfully followed my OB's advice not to get pregnant again for a year after being so high risk with Gabby. Probably a good thing too, because I had stage 2/3 precancerous cells that were healed during that year. But if they hadn't then treatment would have been necessary and it can't be performed while pregnant.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 8:44:33 AM
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Consecrated2God
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We shouldn't demonize the doctors, no, but neither should we demonize the women when they feel God leading them to choose not follow their doctor's advice.
quote:
So a couple may be "in God's will" for not limiting conception, but they are "out of God's will" for not providing for their own family, which the Bible speaks very strongly against.
I think you are forgetting that I do not believe that it is wrong to prevent conception. It's just that I also don't believe it's wrong to not prevent conception. And yes, it is wrong to not provide for your family.
quote:
I think what you're saying is that as a church body we should try to help them reach a point where they can provide for their ever expanding brood, but in the meantime we should never encourage a couple to limit conception if they say God has told them not to?
We should encourage them to step up and take responsibility for their children. If they say, "We believe God wants us to continue conversation" we should make it clear to them that they have a responsibility, if that's their conviction, to work very hard to take care of their offspring.
quote:
Humans have limits to their patience, so how long should a church financially support a QF family, while we are waiting for them to come into God's will and support themselves? As we've already said, nobody wants children already born to starve or go naked, so there's a limit to how far we can take "tough love".
I think there's biblical support for two warnings. Tough love is difficult, but it's effective. If the parents refuse to work, I would be inclined to bring food for the kids if necessary, but not to pay their bills. Certain things, like power being shut off, can be a huge wake-up call. If they repent, the church can help get them back on their feet, but a non-repentant non-provider shouldn't be subsidized by the church.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 8:54:41 AM
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Sideways
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quote:
We shouldn't demonize the doctors, no, but neither should we demonize the women when they feel God leading them to choose not follow their doctor's advice.
I don't think I've ever even implied that, nor would I, but I have seen a lot of anti-doctor "see how wrong they were" bias here over the years. It's called "cognitive bias". People remember the few times doctors were wrong, but it slips away how often they were right. So, in people's minds, they are wrong a lot more then they are right because of selective memory.
quote:
I think you are forgetting that I do not believe that it is wrong to prevent conception.
I didn't forget your beliefs, Lisa. That's why I say "a couple may be in God's will for not limiting conception".
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 10:49:24 AM
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phosadaud
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CoeurdeLeon
quote:
ORIGINAL: landabee
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
I could be wrong, but I don't believe anyone is saying that.
People have said it's wrong to get pregnant if you are foodstamps, though. I don't think it's wrong to pregnant if you are married. The wisdom of it could be debated, but it's not wrong.
Since we are going all in for semantics and subtle shadings of meanings I'll cut to the chase.
What is the opposite of wisdom?
That's our point.
Bee nails it.
Ditto
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 11:49:03 AM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4932
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Like I said, though, sometimes things that seem foolish from a human perspective may not be foolish from God's perspective. That's something each individual has to do--learn to hear from God.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 12:07:29 PM
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landabee
Posts: 2868
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From: Central Florida
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
I could be wrong, but I don't believe anyone is saying that.
People have said it's wrong to get pregnant if you are foodstamps, though. I don't think it's wrong to pregnant if you are married. The wisdom of it could be debated, but it's not wrong.
quote:
Like I said, though, sometimes things that seem foolish from a human perspective may not be foolish from God's perspective. That's something each individual has to do--learn to hear from God.
Okay, so I can deduce from both of these posts:
We COULD debate it. But it would be wrong to debate it.........because we have no way of determining what is foolish or right in the eyes of God.
That's the trump card.
I see.
Gonna excuse myself from this convo after this post.
1) I do not think QF families are necessarily in God's will.... or out.
2) I have repeatedly said I respect those families that can understand the fullness of the QF lifestyle they've chosen. They plan for and parent with care their children.
3) I agree that doctors are often demonized. They are not the be all and end all in healthcare, I concur. However, they do serve a purpose.
4) I resent the implication that those of us that do not agree--- that the collective "we" should support adults in making poor decision, that we are not hearing God, being mean, being selfish or questioning the couple's hearing God for themselves. I think that it would be understood that if God is entrusting little babes to you: You should be good stewards of the blessing. Wisdom is extolled in the bible. Why should we not encourage folks to pray for wisdom?
5) It is interesting to see the new definitions of QF. Since your definition can change, so can mine: QF is having as many kids as you feel led to by God, until it gets too difficult.
But at least until it does.......... you can smugly look upon those of us that stopped when we heard God, too.
_____________________________
"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 12:26:05 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4932
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quote:
We COULD debate it. But it would be wrong to debate it.........because we have no way of determining what is foolish or right in the eyes of God.
It's like this.
Sometimes God tells us to do things that sound incredibly foolish. Walk on water. March around a city for days on ends and then shout at the walls. Dismiss most of the army and attack the enemy with jugs and torches. They might seem foolish to our human reasoning, but if God told them to do it, then God's going to see them through.
If God speaks to a sister in the Lord who's doctor said, "No more babies" and tells her to have one more, who are we to contradict her? No one can tell whether or not God really spoke to her except the one to whom He has spoken.
We have a way of knowing when something is right or wrong, wise or foolish when it comes to our own decisions. We get counsel. We pray. We immerse ourselves in the Word. Most of all, we listen to the Lord. It's intensely personal. I don't believe that people get a word from the Lord on behalf of other people unless it's to confirm something that the Lord has already told them.
So when it's ourselves, yes, we need to debate the wisdom or foolishness of something. We need to make very sure that we are hearing from God on this, and take into account other's opinions. Sometimes we think we've heard from the Lord and haven't.
When it comes to other people we can be that counsel if they ask, and give them food for thought, but ultimately is their decision. If they believe that this is something God's called them to do, at some point we have to back off. It God is directing their way, He'll take care of them. If not, they'll eventually see the error of their ways.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/6/2008 12:44:52 PM
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CoeurdeLeon
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But it's also like this.....I have a hard time believing God tells people to have more children when they cannot or will not care for the ones they have. I have a hard time believing that God's plan for people is to continue having children and have the rest of us support them. That doesn't seem foolish to human reasoning, that seems to be contrary to God's own nature.
< Message edited by CoeurdeLeon -- 9/6/2008 12:51:35 PM >
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This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
10.13.08
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I haven't entered into a QF thread since, and this isn't one either. 
