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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 1:14:55 PM
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landabee
Posts: 2868
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Central Florida
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Lisa, what you just posted is all that many of us in this thread are asserting.
quote:
I think in cases like that the pastor should encourage them to come up with a plan to provide for their family, such as Mom working part time during the evenings, or a change of career, or help with budgeting. He should let them know that the church won't be able to continue to provide for them, but he should give the family help in learning to provide for themselves.
The parents must plan how to take care of their children.
It isn't about a number of children. It is about what happens after the children are here.
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Yeah, I'm wondering where all these moochers are and all these folks know them and the details of their life.
Sadly, my experience is when my Christian kindness is called upon time after time to support their continued poor choices and deteriorating finances. Usually, they are quite vocal in what I should be doing to continue to enable them to make their choices/follow their conviction.
How many times can the congregation be called upon to support a family led by an underemployed husband and a stay at home mom?
AGAIN, everyone can have hard times. And as someone else said: I have had hard times. Some were my own fault and some weren't.
Those that were due to my own poor choices, I chose to learn from.
AGAIN, unplanned pregnancies happen. But five, six and seven times?
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"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 1:20:18 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4932
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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quote:
Lisa, what you just posted is all that many of us in this thread are asserting.
Actually, what I've seen people in this thread assert is that they should use birth control. I didn't post that in my suggestion. That's between them and the Lord.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 1:21:31 PM
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kohls356
Posts: 361
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
I think in cases like that the pastor should encourage them to come up with a plan to provide for their family, such as Mom working part time during the evenings, or a change of career, or help with budgeting. He should let them know that the church won't be able to continue to provide for them, but he should give the family help in learning to provide for themselves.
Oh I agree but this pastor didn't believe in women working.
I totally understand the possible need for help. We could have been in that situation because my husband lost his job about 5 years ago. During that time I went to work so we wouldn't have to get on aid. I am perfectly capable of working so that is what I did. When I asked my pastor to pray for us and me especially for looking work he said that he would do anything but the one thing he wouldn't do is get a job for my husband. He and his wife told me they thought it was wrong for me to go to work. Can you see why I keep calling this my former church?
My husband found another job and we are fine now but it was very hard and stressful taking care of the family during that time. I couldn't even begin to imagine the thought of adding another child to that already difficult time when I didn't know if we could provide for the ones we already had. I just wouldn't have been the responsible thing to do at that time.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 1:23:43 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4932
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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quote:
How many times can the congregation be called upon to support a family led by an underemployed husband and a stay at home mom?
A church shouldn't have to continually provide for a family that is not bringing in the income they are capable of. I know a family like that--the husband has a "home business" that makes very little and the wife makes nothing. They will never learn that they need to find a job and support their family if the church is always helping them out.
That's my advice. Not "stop having babies" if that's their conviction, but to motivate them (by tough love if necessary) to provide for themselves.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 1:26:14 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4932
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kohls356
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
I think in cases like that the pastor should encourage them to come up with a plan to provide for their family, such as Mom working part time during the evenings, or a change of career, or help with budgeting. He should let them know that the church won't be able to continue to provide for them, but he should give the family help in learning to provide for themselves.
Oh I agree but this pastor didn't believe in women working.
I totally understand the possible need for help. We could have been in that situation because my husband lost his job about 5 years ago. During that time I went to work so we wouldn't have to get on aid. I am perfectly capable of working so that is what I did. When I asked my pastor to pray for us and me especially for looking work he said that he would do anything but the one thing he wouldn't do is get a job for my husband. He and his wife told me they thought it was wrong for me to go to work. Can you see why I keep calling this my former church?
My husband found another job and we are fine now but it was very hard and stressful taking care of the family during that time. I couldn't even begin to imagine the thought of adding another child to that already difficult time when I didn't know if we could provide for the ones we already had. I just wouldn't have been the responsible thing to do at that time.
Sheesh. Well, I guess if the pastor didn't want to help them provide for themselves and would rather support them out of church funds that's his call, but I disagree with it.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 3:41:56 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10529
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
Lisa, what you just posted is all that many of us in this thread are asserting.
Actually, what I've seen people in this thread assert is that they should use birth control. I didn't post that in my suggestion. That's between them and the Lord.
Some of us posted that because IF a family isn't going to take responsibility for more kids or has no way of providing for more kiddos, what other option is left? If you have the conviction to not use BC, that isn't my concern. However, when you won't take responsibility for your conviction and expect the rest of society to take that responsibility - I object to that. To me the options are: Buck up and do what it takes to take care of your family OR stop having child after child after child.
As far as "knowing people's business" - In my position in the church, I am privy to much confidential information about people. We have a very active jail & 12 step ministry and as a result a lot of people who are very skilled at abusing the system. So, I have known many folks like what this thread is describing. And I know - I'm not making assumption or judgements from afar. So, those of you who keep assuming the rest of us are just judgmental cretons, maybe should adjust YOUR assumptions about us.
The fact is - If you feel led to have a lot of kiddos, you need to take responsibility for that and do whatever it takes to provide for them and not expect everyone else to bail you out because you don't want to work 2 jobs or get rid of the cell phones. I grew up in a family that had very little money. I wore the hand-me-downs from cousins and my dad worked long, long hours. I know what it is to be poor. However, my family did what they had to to support us - even when that was very hard.
IF you aren't able or willing to do that, I find it wrong to continue trying to conceive. It is NOT an issue of how many kids you have. It's an issue of taking responsibility (and if you don't know how, doing what it takes to learn how) for your life and the life of your family. THAT'S a conviction I can get behind and THAT'S a conviction I will support.
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~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 3:44:51 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4932
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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quote:
Buck up and do what it takes to take care of your family OR stop having child after child after child.
What if a couple wants to take the second option--stop having more children--but doesn't want to buck up and do what it takes to take care of their family? You make it sound like they can choose one or the other.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 3:48:40 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10529
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From: Washington State
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Can you clarify - I'm not sure what you mean (sorry it's been a really long week). Thanks!
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~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 3:53:05 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4932
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The big capital "OR" in your post. They can either buck up and take care of their family, OR they can stop having kids? As if not bucking up and taking care of their family is an option?
Frankly, I do not believe it is wrong to get pregnant within marraige. God blessed marriage, He said that the marriage bed is holy and undefiled, and He is the creator of life. Our motives can be wrong (to try and keep a boyfriend, to get money from the government, etc.) but it's not sinful or wrong for married people to get pregnant.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 4:01:22 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10529
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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OK, I'm getting really, really frustrated right now because I really, really don't like people reading evil intent into my posts and I'm feeling like no matter what I post right now you are going to assume that I have some awful intent. It's getting old. I'm a straight shooter - I mean what I say. If I don't say it. I don't mean it. If you aren't sure what I'm saying, please ask. Thank you.
Now, one should ALWAYS buck up and take care of their family. However if you aren't willing to do that - don't bring kids into this world. It hurts the kids. It hurts society. It's wrong. That doesn't mean it's ok to not take care of your family. That is always wrong - but 2 wrongs don't make a right.
And I've NEVER said that pregnancy is wrong. But as YOU said, there are wrong reasons to get pregnant and there are wrong ways of going about it. And if you have no intention of taking responsibility (which is the sin - not the pregnancy) than don't bring more kids into the mix.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 4:41:00 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4932
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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I wasn't trying to read evil intent into your post. I was trying to figure out the reason for the big "OR".
quote:
if you have no intention of taking responsibility (which is the sin - not the pregnancy)
And there we agree. A person who does not take care of his own is worse than an infidel, according to the Bible.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 4:45:04 PM
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kohls356
Posts: 361
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It is not sinful to get pregnant in marriage just like it isn't sinful not to get pregnant. Most qf people that I have come in contact with say it is sinful to try and prevent a pregnancy. To use bc of any kind, including NFP which I think is just as much bc as anything else just not artificial, is selfish and sinful.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 4:48:17 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4932
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I was responding to this sentence when I said that it's not wrong to get pregnant in marriage.
quote:
IF you aren't able or willing to do that, I find it wrong to continue trying to conceive.
There have been similar sentiments in this thread.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 4:54:28 PM
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LaurainAL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
I was responding to this sentence when I said that it's not wrong to get pregnant in marriage.
quote:
IF you aren't able or willing to do that, I find it wrong to continue trying to conceive.
There have been similar sentiments in this thread.
I just don't get why that is a bad statement.
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Life Trumps Choice
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 5:09:08 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4932
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Because it's not wrong to try and conceive. Motives can be wrong. Unwillingness to provide for your own can be wrong. But marriage is a covenant relationship before God and it is right and holy to have children within that union. There's nothing wrong with that.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 5:12:51 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10529
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
I wasn't trying to read evil intent into your post. I was trying to figure out the reason for the big "OR".
Then please ask me what I meant by that. Thank you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
I was responding to this sentence when I said that it's not wrong to get pregnant in marriage.
quote:
IF you aren't able or willing to do that, I find it wrong to continue trying to conceive.
There have been similar sentiments in this thread.
To quote you:
quote:
Our motives can be wrong (to try and keep a boyfriend, to get money from the government, etc.)
That is what we are talking about. Pregnancy is not sinful but the attitudes behind what we do can be. Hence, trying to conceive for the wrong reasons is wrong.
It is not sinful to buy a gift for my brother, but if I buy a gift for my brother to try and guilt him into doing something that is wrong - buying the gift becomes wrong.
I'm not sure how else to explain it.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 5:18:02 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2474
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From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LaurainAL
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
I was responding to this sentence when I said that it's not wrong to get pregnant in marriage.
quote:
IF you aren't able or willing to do that, I find it wrong to continue trying to conceive.
There have been similar sentiments in this thread.
I just don't get why that is a bad statement.
I think that postponing TTC to some is wrong, no matter what the reason is. But that's not how everyone sees it. Hence why that statement is bad to some and reasonable to others.
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 6:07:05 PM
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kohls356
Posts: 361
Joined: 8/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Because it's not wrong to try and conceive. Motives can be wrong. Unwillingness to provide for your own can be wrong. But marriage is a covenant relationship before God and it is right and holy to have children within that union. There's nothing wrong with that.
Again I don't think anyone has said it is wrong to have children but that the couple should be able to provide for them.
I have been at crosswalk off and on for about 9 years and have debated the qf lifestyle many times. Lisa, I remember you being one that very strongly believed in being qf. and that using any kind of bc even NFP was wrong and not trusting God and that it was up to God to decide the size of your family. You now say that you don't plan on having anymore children and that you are using NFP. Whatever your reasons they are yours and no ones business. But I wonder do you now really think it is wise and good for couple to keep having children they can't provide for? Children do become expensive, it is nice to be able to do things with your children and give them things, buying bigger vehicles is expensive, etc. Those were all selfish reasons at one time and people were told that they weren't trusting God to provide all the things that they needed and that they were in sin.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 7:26:43 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4932
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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I lost my whole post!  It was good, too. Now I've got to start over and hope I can remember everything I said. <sigh>
quote:
Then please ask me what I meant by that. Thank you
That was what I was doing with my posts. Didn't you see the question marks?
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That is what we are talking about. Pregnancy is not sinful but the attitudes behind what we do can be. Hence, trying to conceive for the wrong reasons is wrong.
Right.
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I think that postponing TTC to some is wrong, no matter what the reason is. But that's not how everyone sees it. Hence why that statement is bad to some and reasonable to others.
Although some do believe it is wrong to try not to conceive, that's not really what I think we're talking about here. We're talking about whether it's wrong to not prevent conception at times. I don't believe it's sinful to not prevent conception for married people.
quote:
I have been at crosswalk off and on for about 9 years and have debated the qf lifestyle many times. Lisa, I remember you being one that very strongly believed in being qf. and that using any kind of bc even NFP was wrong and not trusting God and that it was up to God to decide the size of your family. You now say that you don't plan on having anymore children and that you are using NFP. Whatever your reasons they are yours and no ones business. But I wonder do you now really think it is wise and good for couple to keep having children they can't provide for? Children do become expensive, it is nice to be able to do things with your children and give them things, buying bigger vehicles is expensive, etc. Those were all selfish reasons at one time and people were told that they weren't trusting God to provide all the things that they needed and that they were in sin.
If you've been around that long, perhaps you remember my thread about four years ago where I explained why I changed my views on QF. As for your question, I believe it's a personal decision. I would never tell someone they should not have babies. I don't think there's anything in the Bible to back that up. However, the Bible does say that we should provide for our children. That would be the part I would emphasize. Not to tell someone their family is too big.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 7:53:23 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2474
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From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
Although some do believe it is wrong to try not to conceive, that's not really what I think we're talking about here. We're talking about whether it's wrong to not prevent conception at times. I don't believe it's sinful to not prevent conception for married people.
I don't see how it's not what you're (we're) talking about. Postponing having a baby (ie conceiving) until you can provide for them ("reason") isn't being discussed here? My point was that some Christians believe in having babies or not trying to prevent even when they have no resources to care for them; usually they say "God will provide." Perhaps I was ambiguous. It's what I do best. :)
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 8:40:20 PM
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kohls356
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Lisa, if I remember correctly it had something to do with believing that God had meant for us all to be qf before the fall but once sin entered the world then it was ok to control your family size, Is that close? I only remember details of things that I really conversed in and I didn't follow everything about you, so you can correct me where I am wrong. I don't want to say something about you or anyone else that isn't true.
I would never just go tell someone they shouldn't have any more children and I wouldn't tell someone that their family is too big. However, if someone came to me and asked for my advice in this situation I would be honest with them and tell them that I do not think it is a wise decision.
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(Yes, I realize that QF isn't just confined to Protestants, but when I hear the term QF, I typically think of Protestants.)
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