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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/4/2008 4:51:08 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10529
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Many of you have said that if you can't afford kids, don't have them. It sounds easy, but it's not that simple. Birth control fails. Many, many people have had children they didn't specifically plan on having. So how can you know when you see a poor family with several children and mama is pregnant again that they were intentionally bringing children into the world? Do you ask them? Because I think it's a very personal topic. We might discuss these things in a forum, but IRL I don't ask my pregnant friends and family if their children were planned. I feel like it's none of my business. I wouldn't say, "Oh, wow, you're pregnant and your husband is out of work--did you do that on purpose or did your birth control fail?" That just seems so rude to me to ask.
Again, no one here is saying that. I don't think anyone here has suggested that birth control can't fail and stuff can't happen. But again, that's not what we're talking about (and why some of us are getting frustrated). Not one person here has disparaged someone who is trying to be responsible and life happened (BC failed, an unforeseen crisis, etc, etc). I'm not sure how else we can say that but I'm getting a little tired of repeating it.
And yes, we shouldn't judge someone simply based on the fact that they got pregnant. I think that's a no brainer. Again, most of us are arguing in terms of before the fact not after the fact. It's called taking responsibility. One shouldn't just float through life not really caring about the consequences of their actions and expect someone else to bail them out. That's irresponsible and IMHO wrong.
That doesn't mean that we don't go through trials. That doesn't mean we don't make mistakes. That doesn't mean things don't always go as planned. No one here is saying that. I've had my own struggles - sometimes my fault, sometimes not. What do I do? I take responsibility. I try my best to be prepared for eventualities. I try to make wise decisions. I don't go into anything thinking that someone else can bail me out.
Does that mean I'll never need help? Absolutely not! I can only do, what I can do.
quote:
And if I was the pregnant mother, even if the pregnancy was an oopsie, I wouldn't call it an oopsie, because with God, there are no oopsies. I wouldn't feel the need to apologize to everyone I see for the fact that I was pregnant. Nor would I feel the need to explain to everyone what kind of birth control I was using or if I was using any at all. And I certainly wouldn't feel the need to reassure everyone I met that no, I wasn't on welfare or apologize if I happened to be on welfare. It's no one else's business. Do you all really know who is having kids just to get extra food stamps from the government? You say you are angry with people who make you pay for their children, but do you know who these people are? How do you know you aren't angry at the wrong people? Someone may be the object of your anger because they are happily pregnant, and you may assume they did it on purpose, but they might not have.
As far as "oopsies", I can understand folks not being comfortable with that depending on your past. But, for many of us, this isn't a bad thing. We have a few in my family and they are no less loved than the kiddo whose parents tried for years to have. It's simply a description of how that kiddo came about - not how much they are loved or wanted. Kind of like how I joke that I am a "drug baby" because my mom was taking a fertility medication. 
As far as the rest of your post - I'm seriously not understanding why you think anyone is saying that. Who said folks need to apologize for being pregnant? Or that we should assume someone is pregnant for the wrong reasons (and there are wrong reasons to get pregnant)? Or that we should be "angry" with people? No offense, but I think you are reading way too much into people's posts.
I would never presume to judge someone simply based on the fact that they were pregnant. However, that doesn't mean that we have no way of knowing anything. If I know a couple is in horrible turmoil and the wife confides in me that she got pregnant to try and get her husband to stay with her (yes, it has happened), I find it relatively easy to say that she got pregnant for the wrong reasons. Or when someone shares that their benefits are ending so they are hoping to get pregnant, well, yeah, it's not too hard to figure out and I don't think it would be out of line to express concerns for the decision they are trying to make.
Now, of course, after the fact, what's done is done and our goal shouldn't be to wag fingers but rather to help them grow up (parents and child  ). However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss stuff like this beforehand in hopes of getting folks to think before they dive in.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/4/2008 5:03:01 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4932
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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quote:
Not one person here has disparaged someone who is trying to be responsible and life happened (BC failed, an unforeseen crisis, etc, etc).
My point is, most of the time you aren't going to be privy to the details. If someone tells you they are trying to get pregnant to get more government money, then you know. I'd be ticked, too, if someone admitted to that. Most of the time you aren't going to know if a pregnant woman is in the category that makes you mad (e.g. they weren't using birth control) or the category that you feel is forgivable (they at least tried to not have kids). People don't put personal information out there for the public like that very often.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/4/2008 5:56:53 PM
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10SNE1?
Posts: 179
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
quote:
ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2
I know many QF families that "stopped" at some point...not because they changed their mind, but because they felt God was leading them to now stop.
By that definition, almost all of us are QF!
Sarah, I am SO NOT picking on you ( see what you did Lisa? Made me all sensitive about others feelings )
But I have to agree with Ruth here. My husband and I have four kids. I always "knew" I wanted four kids. After the birth of each child, 1-3 there was always a sense of "someone is missing, we don't seem, 'done' yet". But after our fourth was born, it just seemed perfect. We even discussed one or two more for a couple reasons but it just didn't seem right. Was that God leading us to a four child family and telling us to "stop" or us, as someone ( none of you on this thread but someone on this forum) said to me, my husband and I choosing vacations, college educations for the kids and other material pleasures over God's will and additional children? Do I get to be in the QF Club...can I? huh? huh? Can I please?
That's what bugs me about all these various "movements" within Christianity. Once they get a foothold in a community of believers and start influencing others to believe that they are "God's model" for the family or the church or prayer or Bible Study whatever.....others start to feel like they need to measure their lives, their trust in God and even their very Christian faith by things such as: are we QF, do we allow dating or courtship, do we have a "quiet time" ( and do we use that phase instead of just saying I read my Bible and pray) and is it first thing in the morning?
And it is just logical that, once these movements get that foothold, people will go to extreme lengths to "fit" the model. Again, not saying you are Sarah but your definition of QF seems pretty broad to me. And I wonder why it would be so important to anyone, to be able to say " yes, I'm QF" 
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/4/2008 7:34:09 PM
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LaurainAL
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I don't want to get too personal, but I do know a family that kept having children "because they wanted to" even though they had no health insurance to pay for the medical care, they lived with their parents, and were on food stamps. They had them because they wanted to.
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Life Trumps Choice
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/4/2008 8:30:06 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
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From: California
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2
I know many QF families that "stopped" at some point...not because they changed their mind, but because they felt God was leading them to now stop.
By that definition, almost all of us are QF!
Yeah, I always thought QF meant the couple didn't believe in using any birth control ever.
_____________________________
"We basically use what I have seen referred to as "get off your butt" parenting. It employs more interaction, more redirection, more prevention, and usually less spanking."
-Mrs. Wifey
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/4/2008 9:01:32 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10529
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
Not one person here has disparaged someone who is trying to be responsible and life happened (BC failed, an unforeseen crisis, etc, etc).
My point is, most of the time you aren't going to be privy to the details. If someone tells you they are trying to get pregnant to get more government money, then you know. I'd be ticked, too, if someone admitted to that. Most of the time you aren't going to know if a pregnant woman is in the category that makes you mad (e.g. they weren't using birth control) or the category that you feel is forgivable (they at least tried to not have kids). People don't put personal information out there for the public like that very often.
And I would agree with that. If you don't know the details of someone's life and God doesn't impress upon your heart to address something - butt out.  It would never in my wildest dreams occur to me to go up to someone and tell them they were wrong for having so many kids. That being said, if God pressed upon me to bring it up OR if they brought it up and I felt this was something they needed to get a "reality check" on because their actions were harming their kiddos - I would. And my best friends do the same for me. They butt out when they don't know - but when I'm being selfish or making harmful choices, they aren't afraid to talk with me. And for that I'm thankful (even if it is irritating at times... Ha!).
That's why I think discussing stuff like this is good. It's not pointing fingers but it gets the issue out there for people to think about. From all your posts, you seem like you and your hubby are very responsible, take great care of your kids and are honoring the Lord in your decisions. That's AWESOME and to be commended. Others, may be reading this and had never thought about how their decisions might not be the most God-honoring or the best witness. Maybe, just maybe, seeing the other side will stir something within them to get it together and put the kiddos first.
I personally don't know a single soul on these forums that I would think is like this. There are a few sometimes I wonder about , but I don't know their hearts and I don't know their circumstances so I would never dream of condemning them. I hate, hate, hate when we make assumptions about folks and judge them based on those assumptions. However, I also know that this is a site that many, many folks read and if only one person reads this who needs to hear it - Hallelujah!
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/4/2008 9:34:56 PM
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landabee
Posts: 2868
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Central Florida
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quote:
Others, may be reading this and had never thought about how their decisions might not be the most God-honoring or the best witness. Maybe, just maybe, seeing the other side will stir something within them to get it together and put the kiddos first.
I agree.
quote:
It would never in my wildest dreams occur to me to go up to someone and tell them they were wrong for having so many kids.
I very much agree. I know that there are rude people that do, though. One of the posters on this board wrote about it on her blog. Very sad.
quote:
That's what bugs me about all these various "movements" within Christianity. Once they get a foothold in a community of believers and start influencing others to believe that they are "God's model" for the family or the church or prayer or Bible Study whatever.....others start to feel like they need to measure their lives, their trust in God and even their very Christian faith by things such as: are we QF, do we allow dating or courtship, do we have a "quiet time" ( and do we use that phase instead of just saying I read my Bible and pray) and is it first thing in the morning?
I like this. There are many movements that don't really make a bit of difference, as it is preference. But then there are those that create a domino effect on all areas of a person's/family's life. Sadly, not all of the fads create a positive waterfall........they create a dangerous swiftly moving flood.
Back in my days as a medical assistant, there was a family served by the practice that had nine children and the mom was expecting again. They were believers and QF. The mom stayed home with the young ones. The older ones attended Christian schools.
The dad was a minister (not pastor) and he worked two jobs. The teens each worked part time.
They were not on any assistance. The children by all appearances were healthy, well cared for and content.
I relate this, because they seemed to have a plan in place. Some may disagree with their family size due to preference. Some may disagree that the teens worked. But that really isn't their business.
The family was functional and healthy.
Now that I've had years on this forum, I find it interesting that outside of their family size.... they seemed just like every other Christian family I know. They didn't seem to relish their different-ness and point to it as if it were a witnessing tool, or pointed to their holiness.
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"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/4/2008 9:42:53 PM
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peculiar_lady2
Posts: 9790
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
quote:
ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2
I know many QF families that "stopped" at some point...not because they changed their mind, but because they felt God was leading them to now stop.
By that definition, almost all of us are QF!
yup...nothin wrong with that!!!!
People try to put a physical sign on QF, but it really has nothing to do with that, it has to do with the heart....are you tuned into God's will for your life and family...are you willing to change if God led you down another road. If so then you are in a way QF...whether you have none or twenty kids. Not everyone that is QF (in fact very few that I know) actually believe in NO forms of bc ever...that is a very rare group of QFers.
As far as the "had three kids, felt complete, then God threw another one in there"....God doesn't always tune us in on what goes on, He likes to throw little wrenches into the mix. Also, times change...and along with that, so do people's convictions. Again it gets back to the heart issue, not the physical things seen by others. Is your heart following God's leading...if so then that is the whole point of QF, to give it up to God. Some take that to one extreme of not using bc, others go the opposite way and say "God is leading us to stop"....it's quite the spectrum.
anyway, not trying to turn this into a QF discussion, just trying to explain my post.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 11:47:22 AM
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Mrs.X
Posts: 2933
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: Newberg, OR
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
quote:
Not one person here has disparaged someone who is trying to be responsible and life happened (BC failed, an unforeseen crisis, etc, etc).
My point is, most of the time you aren't going to be privy to the details. If someone tells you they are trying to get pregnant to get more government money, then you know. I'd be ticked, too, if someone admitted to that. Most of the time you aren't going to know if a pregnant woman is in the category that makes you mad (e.g. they weren't using birth control) or the category that you feel is forgivable (they at least tried to not have kids). People don't put personal information out there for the public like that very often.
Yeah, I'm wondering where all these moochers are and all these folks know them and the details of their life. Laura said she knew one.
Our family is on food stamps, and we have two kids. BC failed both times, well, I actually messed up on it not purposely. I suppose someone could look at me at the store using my foodstamp card and see my two kids and assume I'm a moocher, or that I'll have more so I can get more.
I just don't see how all you folks know all these folks who purposely have more kids to get more welfare. I think some of you might have changed your tune over the many pages of this post.
_____________________________
-Stina
From Sweet Grass to the Packin' House
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. -Proverbs 15:1
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 12:23:24 PM
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kohls356
Posts: 361
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
I think there are many varieties of QF.
I've been thinking about this while I was doing dishes (I'm not finished either, and I really need to get back to them, but I just wanted to stop and try and see if I could put my thoughts into words.
Many of you have said that if you can't afford kids, don't have them. It sounds easy, but it's not that simple. Birth control fails. Many, many people have had children they didn't specifically plan on having. So how can you know when you see a poor family with several children and mama is pregnant again that they were intentionally bringing children into the world? Do you ask them? Because I think it's a very personal topic. We might discuss these things in a forum, but IRL I don't ask my pregnant friends and family if their children were planned. I feel like it's none of my business. I wouldn't say, "Oh, wow, you're pregnant and your husband is out of work--did you do that on purpose or did your birth control fail?" That just seems so rude to me to ask.
And if I was the pregnant mother, even if the pregnancy was an oopsie, I wouldn't call it an oopsie, because with God, there are no oopsies. I wouldn't feel the need to apologize to everyone I see for the fact that I was pregnant. Nor would I feel the need to explain to everyone what kind of birth control I was using or if I was using any at all. And I certainly wouldn't feel the need to reassure everyone I met that no, I wasn't on welfare or apologize if I happened to be on welfare. It's no one else's business. Do you all really know who is having kids just to get extra food stamps from the government? You say you are angry with people who make you pay for their children, but do you know who these people are? How do you know you aren't angry at the wrong people? Someone may be the object of your anger because they are happily pregnant, and you may assume they did it on purpose, but they might not have.
The only people I know that weren't trying to prevent a pregnancy would be the people I personally know who are very vocal about being qf. I don't wonder about people I don't know that I might see in the store or something because I have idea what the situation is and I certainly wouldn't go ask them. But I do know more than a few qf families personally from our former church. So I did know a little about their family situation. There was a couple of families who had to ask the church to help pay for their bills because they couldn't yet they still continued to have more children. That is what people just simply couldn't understand.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 12:32:30 PM
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kohls356
Posts: 361
Joined: 8/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: OneOfHisJewels
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2
I know many QF families that "stopped" at some point...not because they changed their mind, but because they felt God was leading them to now stop.
By that definition, almost all of us are QF!
Yeah, I always thought QF meant the couple didn't believe in using any birth control ever.
That is what I thought qf to be as well. That is why I was wondering if someone had really been convicted about being qf but then stopped. I do know the two families that did do this. One of the families was very open about being qf, leaving that size of their family to God and trusting Him to provide. Then after number 7 she told me she really had been praying and for her she felt that it really wasn't God she had been listening to but other qf people. It just seemed to be the thing that a lot of families in our former church were doing. She even admitted that she felt she had to keep up with the pastors wife, who had 9 children. So for her anyway she realized that it wasn't scriptual or from God but what others were doing.
That is why I was wondering if anyone had been qf and then changed their belief on that.
Also it has been asked how people know about what others are doing or being qf. Well for me personally I found that people who are qf for most the part really liked to talk about it they didn't hide it. They were proud of it and seemed to want to let just about anyone who would listen know. There really was no guessing to it or wondering for others.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 12:32:54 PM
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reach
Posts: 1339
Joined: 4/12/2005
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I have a friend who has a lot of kids.
She did not want any more, but her insurance would not cover for her to get her tubes tied. So they ended up with more. I don't understand the insurance, you would rather then have more kids, then just pay for the surgery.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 12:47:56 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4932
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: online
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quote:
The only people I know that weren't trying to prevent a pregnancy would be the people I personally know who are very vocal about being qf.
Okay, so then they aren't trying to have kids so they can live off the government. That's not their motive. Their motive is that they have a conviction. Should we try and persuade people to go against their convictions?
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 12:52:20 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 3630
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I think a big part of this thread is, should the taxpayers pay for that family's convictions?
(With all the usual caveats that have repeated over and over in this thread.)
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 12:56:35 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4932
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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Taxpayers pay for a lot of things that other people are convicted about. I don't believe in global warming, for instance, but taxpayers have to pay for solutions to it. I don't support public education, but taxpayers have to pay for it. Should I try and convince public schoolers that they shouldn't send their kids to public school because I don't want to pay for it? What if they feel God is leading them to put their kids in school?
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 12:59:54 PM
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TammyIsBlessed
Posts: 1635
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Maybe there's different "denominations" (for lack of a better word) of QFers?
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I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do. Helen Keller
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 1:02:47 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4932
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TammyIsBlessed
Maybe there's different "denominations" (for lack of a better word) of QFers?
Probably. When the movement first started there was just one, but there are splinter groups. Some believe NFP is okay but no aritifical forms of BC, others say any kind except the ones that prevent implantation, some believe it's okay to be done after a time when God leads them. The two things that all QF share is (1) life beings at conception, not implantation and (2) children are a blessing from the Lord, not a burden.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 1:03:03 PM
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kohls356
Posts: 361
Joined: 8/22/2007
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I only know of one family that was on government aid, one of the families that changed their conviction about qf. Then two more who used the church to help pay their bills and get food. I don't have a problem at all with the church helping that is what the church is to do, but it shouldn't be relied on to pay their bills while they are sticking to their convictions. When you have to go for help more times than they take care of themselves then they need to think about making some changes.
I wouldn't try and change someone's convictions and don't really care about their convictions. I can only speak for myself but for me I had a hard time hearing from a few families that could't take care of themselves saying how they were trusting God to provide and still having children yet were using the Government or church to take care of them.
This isn't about people falling on hard times needing help, but about the people who continue to keep having children they couldn't afford to have or emotionally able to take care of their children.
I am not against people having the conviction of being qf, along with the families that I see it not working out for, I have known more where it was working fine.
What it boils down to is yes it is THEIR conviction, not the governments, not the churches, but THEIRS and they should be able to take care of themselves. Why should others support someone elses convictions?
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 1:05:30 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4932
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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I think in cases like that the pastor should encourage them to come up with a plan to provide for their family, such as Mom working part time during the evenings, or a change of career, or help with budgeting. He should let them know that the church won't be able to continue to provide for them, but he should give the family help in learning to provide for themselves.
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<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/5/2008 1:13:23 PM
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kohls356
Posts: 361
Joined: 8/22/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Taxpayers pay for a lot of things that other people are convicted about. I don't believe in global warming, for instance, but taxpayers have to pay for solutions to it. I don't support public education, but taxpayers have to pay for it. Should I try and convince public schoolers that they shouldn't send their kids to public school because I don't want to pay for it? What if they feel God is leading them to put their kids in school?
I don't see global warming as a spiritual issue. A lot of qf people believe it is a sin to use bc. I don't think not caing about global warming could be considered a sin, but I guess there could be someone out there that would.
I have heard the public school being like government aid argument before. Public school is there for anyone and everyone to use if you so choose to. You don't have to qualify to use ps. Public parks, libraries, ambulance and fire department and many other things as well that probably aren't used by most people but coudl be. I don't use the parks or libraries often and thankfully so far not the ambulance or fire deparment, but they are for everyone. So whether people like it or not they can still use the ps system if they so choose to, people who don't use pulblic aid can't just go get on food stamps, wic and medicaid. You are paying for something you are choosing not to use, you and others are paying for something that only certain people can use, and for the most part if they are using public aid they probably aren't paying many taxes into the system.
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