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RE: Christians and Voting - 9/5/2008 11:00:29 AM
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rcamejo01
Posts: 309
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
of course, but the worst is being called "Devil Dog"...tis why i got out, i prefer first name basis anyway (man life is good right now)...
Thats right! I fogot about that Marine nick name, I guess Jar head isn't that bad. I guess life being good your referring to being out EH? I wouldn't agree more, although at time's I miss being in.
_____________________________
In your prayers, please remember my sister Liz, if you havent heard: http://caringbridge.org/visit/lizettecano
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RE: Christians and Voting - 9/5/2008 11:02:01 AM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1032
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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Excellent research, ljmac!
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
quote:
why are democrats so mean with their speech?
your kidding right? Why is it that Whack jobs like Rush, O' Reilly and that other loon Hannity can say that Democrats hate America, but what Democrats like me are supposed to stand idle, or quiet when the Republican Party can single handedly ruin our Nation? Who really hates America?
Lots of Democrats hate America. They have:
- Called our soldiers stupid (Kerry)
- Called our soldiers terrorists (Kerry)
- Called our soldiers cold-blooded killers (Murtha - I think all those soldiers have been exonerated.)
- Been told that we're not charitable enough by a millionaire who has a brother living in a shack made of garbage (BO)
- Compared our soldiers to Nazis and other brutal barbarians (Durbin)
- Written that they loathe our military (B. Clinton)
- Called our commander in Iraq General Betrayus
- Worked on the Saddam Hussein's legal defense team (Carter's attorney general)
- Tried to force our military off college campuses
- Are passionate about defending flag burning
- Are obsessed with isolated violations of military conduct
- Are consumed with exposing America's spy programs, programs that protect America's military
- Go to churches that preach hatred of America. In BO's church you could hear "God d--- America," and that America created AIDS to kill black people. (BO)
- Think regular American are gun nuts, religious kooks and racists. "..they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them..." (BO)
- Their last presidential candidate spent countless hours saying that our soldiers were guilty of widespread war crimes. His winter soldier meeting were full of hateful lies about our military. That's the kind of serviceman liberals find fit for the Presidency.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Christians and Voting - 9/5/2008 11:02:38 AM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
quote:
of course, but the worst is being called "Devil Dog"...tis why i got out, i prefer first name basis anyway (man life is good right now)...
Thats right! I fogot about that Marine nick name, I guess Jar head isn't that bad. I guess life being good your referring to being out EH? I wouldn't agree more, although at time's I miss being in.
agreed, but i should probably stop this conversation here to avoid completely derailing the thread if it hasn't happened already.
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: Christians and Voting - 9/5/2008 11:06:40 AM
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letusreason
Posts: 807
Joined: 8/30/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
How Nice, you can find quotes! All of which don't give a hint of context! Thats like so many of you who can quote the bible(out of context), your memorization skills are just wonderful, now if you can add a lil context to your skills, you'd go places.
Now you're comparing doctrine to news events? That's just plain weird. Can't you just disagree instead of insulting?
Here's an example, I'll start one for you, and you can do the rest if you want:
-I don't think John Kerry called our troops dumb when he told college students to study hard or they will get stuck in Iraq, he really meant that they have McDonalds over there and they would work in the Bagdad McDonalds.
Now you try a few.. go ahead and remember, no mean talk.
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RE: Christians and Voting - 9/5/2008 11:08:55 AM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: letusreason
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
How Nice, you can find quotes! All of which don't give a hint of context! Thats like so many of you who can quote the bible(out of context), your memorization skills are just wonderful, now if you can add a lil context to your skills, you'd go places.
Now you're comparing doctrine to news events? That's just plain weird. Can't you just disagree instead of insulting?
Here's an example, I'll start one for you, and you can do the rest if you want:
-I don't think John Kerry called our troops dumb when he told college students to study hard or they will get stuck in Iraq, he really meant that they have McDonalds over there and they would work in the Bagdad McDonalds.
Now you try a few.. go ahead and remember, no mean talk.
"Here's an example, I'll start one for you, and you can do the rest if you want:
-I don't think John Kerry called our troops dumb when he told college students to study hard or they will get stuck in Iraq, he really meant that they have McDonalds over there and they would work in the Bagdad McDonalds."
HILARIOUS!!!
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: Christians and Voting - 9/5/2008 11:10:38 AM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1032
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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Would you please stop with the petty name calling and personal attacks? It's getting pretty shrill in here and you're losing your credibility. There are ways to get a point across without calling everyone you disagree with a degrading name and making insinuations about their moral character.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
quote:
why are democrats so mean with their speech?
your kidding right? Why is it that Whack jobs like Rush, O' Reilly and that other loon Hannity can say that Democrats hate America, but what Democrats like me are supposed to stand idle, or quiet when the Republican Party can single handedly ruin our Nation? Who really hates America?
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Christians and Voting - 9/5/2008 12:30:52 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1419
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Excellent research, ljmac!
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
quote:
why are democrats so mean with their speech?
your kidding right? Why is it that Whack jobs like Rush, O' Reilly and that other loon Hannity can say that Democrats hate America, but what Democrats like me are supposed to stand idle, or quiet when the Republican Party can single handedly ruin our Nation? Who really hates America?
Lots of Democrats hate America. They have:
- Called our soldiers stupid (Kerry)
- Called our soldiers terrorists (Kerry)
- Called our soldiers cold-blooded killers (Murtha - I think all those soldiers have been exonerated.)
- Been told that we're not charitable enough by a millionaire who has a brother living in a shack made of garbage (BO)
- Compared our soldiers to Nazis and other brutal barbarians (Durbin)
- Written that they loathe our military (B. Clinton)
- Called our commander in Iraq General Betrayus
- Worked on the Saddam Hussein's legal defense team (Carter's attorney general)
- Tried to force our military off college campuses
- Are passionate about defending flag burning
- Are obsessed with isolated violations of military conduct
- Are consumed with exposing America's spy programs, programs that protect America's military
- Go to churches that preach hatred of America. In BO's church you could hear "God d--- America," and that America created AIDS to kill black people. (BO)
- Think regular American are gun nuts, religious kooks and racists. "..they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them..." (BO)
- Their last presidential candidate spent countless hours saying that our soldiers were guilty of widespread war crimes. His winter soldier meeting were full of hateful lies about our military. That's the kind of serviceman liberals find fit for the Presidency.
Thanks, but it certainly didn't require research. Liberal's anger, bitterness, resentment and hate of America is hardly difficult to illustrate. What's difficult is trying to hide it. Notice that I really didn't touch their hatred of our traditional culture, religious heritage or world leadership. They hate that marriage is for one man and one woman. Didn't you know that men practicing sodomy is the same thing as a real marriage?
Here is another that I should have included because it is so pertinent to this time of year. In 2000 Al Gore and the Democrats went to court to block legally cast presidental ballots of our service men and women. So great is their contempt for our military that they wanted to deny them the right to vote. Compare that to BO's work with ACORN, an organization that has repeatedly been caught in voter fraud.
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RE: Christians and Voting - 9/5/2008 12:56:01 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1032
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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The list could probably go on forever. The Dems are also the ones who stood against desegregation - George Wallace, Orval Faubus, Ross Barnett, Lester Maddox, and many more, yet they want to take credit for leading the desegregation movement.
And the attempt to take away the right to vote from the military is just beyond rational comprehension. Yet, at the same time, it was reported that in Chicago, for instance, there were reports of dead people voting. I guess that was ok though. Somebody "knew" how they would have voted. 
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
Excellent research, ljmac!
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
quote:
why are democrats so mean with their speech?
your kidding right? Why is it that Whack jobs like Rush, O' Reilly and that other loon Hannity can say that Democrats hate America, but what Democrats like me are supposed to stand idle, or quiet when the Republican Party can single handedly ruin our Nation? Who really hates America?
Lots of Democrats hate America. They have:
- Called our soldiers stupid (Kerry)
- Called our soldiers terrorists (Kerry)
- Called our soldiers cold-blooded killers (Murtha - I think all those soldiers have been exonerated.)
- Been told that we're not charitable enough by a millionaire who has a brother living in a shack made of garbage (BO)
- Compared our soldiers to Nazis and other brutal barbarians (Durbin)
- Written that they loathe our military (B. Clinton)
- Called our commander in Iraq General Betrayus
- Worked on the Saddam Hussein's legal defense team (Carter's attorney general)
- Tried to force our military off college campuses
- Are passionate about defending flag burning
- Are obsessed with isolated violations of military conduct
- Are consumed with exposing America's spy programs, programs that protect America's military
- Go to churches that preach hatred of America. In BO's church you could hear "God d--- America," and that America created AIDS to kill black people. (BO)
- Think regular American are gun nuts, religious kooks and racists. "..they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them..." (BO)
- Their last presidential candidate spent countless hours saying that our soldiers were guilty of widespread war crimes. His winter soldier meeting were full of hateful lies about our military. That's the kind of serviceman liberals find fit for the Presidency.
Thanks, but it certainly didn't require research. Liberal's anger, bitterness, resentment and hate of America is hardly difficult to illustrate. What's difficult is trying to hide it. Notice that I really didn't touch their hatred of our traditional culture, religious heritage or world leadership. They hate that marriage is for one man and one woman. Didn't you know that men practicing sodomy is the same thing as a real marriage?
Here is another that I should have included because it is so pertinent to this time of year. In 2000 Al Gore and the Democrats went to court to block legally cast presidental ballots of our service men and women. So great is their contempt for our military that they wanted to deny them the right to vote. Compare that to BO's work with ACORN, an organization that has repeatedly been caught in voter fraud.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Christians and Voting - 9/5/2008 2:02:55 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
I love the context arguments, usually thrown about when there is no possible way of refuting the quote presented. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to how ANY of these quotes were "out of context".
Notice those who mention "context" the most never offer any...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Christians and Voting - 9/6/2008 3:35:00 AM
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rgod
Posts: 1475
Joined: 4/25/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
The list could probably go on forever. The Dems are also the ones who stood against desegregation - George Wallace, Orval Faubus, Ross Barnett, Lester Maddox, and many more, yet they want to take credit for leading the desegregation movement.
I had to chime in on this point. Did you realize that during the 1940's throughout the early 70's that the two parties - republican and democrat - essentially switched ideologies (at least on desegregation)? During that period of time, the democrats were in transition. Remember, the Republicans at that time were truly the party of Lincoln - to many whites in the south who were pro-slavery voted Democrat during Reconstruction and beyond. The Democratic party made a dramatic shift during the time of FDR - with his introduction of the New Deal - and became a lot more populist. Some southern whites, who promoted segregation, continued to vote Democrat. This all started to change around 1948, when Truman (a democrat) desegregated the military. At that time, the Dixiecrats (a group of white, southern, pro-segregationist, democrats) started pushing a very strong segregationist platform. The mainstream democrats for the most part disagreed because they wanted to court the black vote. The GOP wanted to court the white southern segregationist vote, and won it during Nixon's run - with the ardent help of Strom Thurman - who later became republican. Orval Faubus was a dixiecrat. George Wallace and Lester Maddox became members of the American Independent Party, which also at the time were also courting the white southern segregationist vote. Ross Barnett - who was a member of the KKK, was defeated in 1964 - ironically the same year that a number of dixiecrats left the party over the infamous Democratic Party Convention of 1964 (it is a fascinating story that you might want to become familiar with if you aren't already - particularly Fannie Lou Hamer's role as a Freedom Democrat. She and Barnett were both from Mississipi I believe. If you look it up though - don't end with 1964, but look at Hamer's role in 1968 as well).
So what is interesting is that the democrats DID speahead a lot of the desegregation movement. It is important to note that King and the other civil rights parties at the time embraced - and were embraced - by the democrats because the democratic mainstream wanted desegregation. In time, it became aparent that segregation was wrong and interestingly enough, in 1970, Nixon decided to actively enforce Brown vs. The Board of Education - when seven states were in open defiance of it (Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina and South Carolina). So, while both parties did have a role to play in desegregation - I believe that it is inaccurate to say that because a faction of the Democratic party didn't support it, that this applied to the party as a whole.
< Message edited by rgod -- 9/6/2008 8:52:30 AM >
_____________________________
Please take my news poll: http://forums.crosswalk.com/Current+Events/m_3896304/mpage_1/tm.htm#3897243
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RE: Christians and Voting - 9/6/2008 10:52:43 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1226
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
How greatly George and Dick profited since Sep. 12 2001
Perhaps you can shows exactly how, and exactly how much George and Dick "profited" from the War after 9/11. Pray tell?
quote:
I hope McWar if elected doesnt pick a fight with Russia, or Iran, cause it will be over then.
For someone who served in the military, you are remarkably ignorant. We don't pick the fights. Afghanistan was started with 9/11 and Iraq wsa started way back in 1991....
I was going to ask the exact same questions. I wonder if we will get an answer....
Just for consideration:
George W. Bush's income from 2000 tax return: $894,880
George W. Bush's income from 2002 tax return: $856,058
George W. Bush's income from 2007 tax return: $923,807
Yep, looks like he is making a huge profit from the war! 
http://www.taxanalysts.com/www/website.nsf/Web/PresidentialTaxReturns?OpenDocument
What about Cheney's millions? Oh, wait, the Cheneys donated over 75% of their income to charity (6.8M$). I guess Al Gore's donation total of $350 for one year is a better example of charity. Hmm... how can that be spun to the left. Can't wait to see.
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Christians and Voting - 9/6/2008 10:11:37 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1226
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
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Still waiting... (though I know it is becoming hard to wade through all of these clutter threads...)
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Christians and Voting - 9/6/2008 11:18:16 PM
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AdrianaS
Posts: 1229
Joined: 3/21/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rgod
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
The list could probably go on forever. The Dems are also the ones who stood against desegregation - George Wallace, Orval Faubus, Ross Barnett, Lester Maddox, and many more, yet they want to take credit for leading the desegregation movement.
I had to chime in on this point. Did you realize that during the 1940's throughout the early 70's that the two parties - republican and democrat - essentially switched ideologies (at least on desegregation)? During that period of time, the democrats were in transition. Remember, the Republicans at that time were truly the party of Lincoln - to many whites in the south who were pro-slavery voted Democrat during Reconstruction and beyond. The Democratic party made a dramatic shift during the time of FDR - with his introduction of the New Deal - and became a lot more populist. Some southern whites, who promoted segregation, continued to vote Democrat. This all started to change around 1948, when Truman (a democrat) desegregated the military. At that time, the Dixiecrats (a group of white, southern, pro-segregationist, democrats) started pushing a very strong segregationist platform. The mainstream democrats for the most part disagreed because they wanted to court the black vote. The GOP wanted to court the white southern segregationist vote, and won it during Nixon's run - with the ardent help of Strom Thurman - who later became republican. Orval Faubus was a dixiecrat. George Wallace and Lester Maddox became members of the American Independent Party, which also at the time were also courting the white southern segregationist vote. Ross Barnett - who was a member of the KKK, was defeated in 1964 - ironically the same year that a number of dixiecrats left the party over the infamous Democratic Party Convention of 1964 (it is a fascinating story that you might want to become familiar with if you aren't already - particularly Fannie Lou Hamer's role as a Freedom Democrat. She and Barnett were both from Mississipi I believe. If you look it up though - don't end with 1964, but look at Hamer's role in 1968 as well).
So what is interesting is that the democrats DID speahead a lot of the desegregation movement. It is important to note that King and the other civil rights parties at the time embraced - and were embraced - by the democrats because the democratic mainstream wanted desegregation. In time, it became aparent that segregation was wrong and interestingly enough, in 1970, Nixon decided to actively enforce Brown vs. The Board of Education - when seven states were in open defiance of it (Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina and South Carolina). So, while both parties did have a role to play in desegregation - I believe that it is inaccurate to say that because a faction of the Democratic party didn't support it, that this applied to the party as a whole.
Hey rgod, thanks for the history class! I was just trying to make sense what a friend told me about Rebublican "party of Lincoln" and Democrats being the original pro-slavers and told me going to explain more at Sunday after church etc..still I thought to myself: "does not make sense as why so many blacks are steady Democrats for long time and not with Republicans?"
Now it does makes sense, they "switched ideologies (at least on desegregation)". What happen infamous at 64's convention I will find out.. 
I "always" perceived the Republican party as being strongly racist tendencies because slavery and the kkk members and segregation but than the Democrats carry half of the load what I thought the Republicans were...
I'm less ignorant. Thanks!
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RE: Christians and Voting - 9/7/2008 2:39:03 AM
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ljmac
Posts: 1419
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AdrianaS
quote:
ORIGINAL: rgod
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
The list could probably go on forever. The Dems are also the ones who stood against desegregation - George Wallace, Orval Faubus, Ross Barnett, Lester Maddox, and many more, yet they want to take credit for leading the desegregation movement.
I had to chime in on this point. Did you realize that during the 1940's throughout the early 70's that the two parties - republican and democrat - essentially switched ideologies (at least on desegregation)? During that period of time, the democrats were in transition. Remember, the Republicans at that time were truly the party of Lincoln - to many whites in the south who were pro-slavery voted Democrat during Reconstruction and beyond. The Democratic party made a dramatic shift during the time of FDR - with his introduction of the New Deal - and became a lot more populist. Some southern whites, who promoted segregation, continued to vote Democrat. This all started to change around 1948, when Truman (a democrat) desegregated the military. At that time, the Dixiecrats (a group of white, southern, pro-segregationist, democrats) started pushing a very strong segregationist platform. The mainstream democrats for the most part disagreed because they wanted to court the black vote. The GOP wanted to court the white southern segregationist vote, and won it during Nixon's run - with the ardent help of Strom Thurman - who later became republican. Orval Faubus was a dixiecrat. George Wallace and Lester Maddox became members of the American Independent Party, which also at the time were also courting the white southern segregationist vote. Ross Barnett - who was a member of the KKK, was defeated in 1964 - ironically the same year that a number of dixiecrats left the party over the infamous Democratic Party Convention of 1964 (it is a fascinating story that you might want to become familiar with if you aren't already - particularly Fannie Lou Hamer's role as a Freedom Democrat. She and Barnett were both from Mississipi I believe. If you look it up though - don't end with 1964, but look at Hamer's role in 1968 as well).
So what is interesting is that the democrats DID speahead a lot of the desegregation movement. It is important to note that King and the other civil rights parties at the time embraced - and were embraced - by the democrats because the democratic mainstream wanted desegregation. In time, it became aparent that segregation was wrong and interestingly enough, in 1970, Nixon decided to actively enforce Brown vs. The Board of Education - when seven states were in open defiance of it (Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina and South Carolina). So, while both parties did have a role to play in desegregation - I believe that it is inaccurate to say that because a faction of the Democratic party didn't support it, that this applied to the party as a whole.
Hey rgod, thanks for the history class! I was just trying to make sense what a friend told me about Rebublican "party of Lincoln" and Democrats being the original pro-slavers and told me going to explain more at Sunday after church etc..still I thought to myself: "does not make sense as why so many blacks are steady Democrats for long time and not with Republicans?"
Now it does makes sense, they "switched ideologies (at least on desegregation)". What happen infamous at 64's convention I will find out..
I "always" perceived the Republican party as being strongly racist tendencies because slavery and the kkk members and segregation but than the Democrats carry half of the load what I thought the Republicans were...
I'm less ignorant. Thanks!
The south didn't go Republican until 1994, that was the "sea change" election when southern Democrats were swept from office. That was thanks largely to the southern Democrat in the Whitehouse. His determination to mainstream sodomy didn't help. In other words, the South didn't become Republican until long after segregation.
- Republicans voted in greater proportion for the Civil Rights act than Democrats.
- Segregationists were almost always Democrats.
- The KKK was to the Democrats what NARAL is to them now. Notice that they're still on the side of oppression. And still have a former klan leader in the US Senate, Robery Byrd.
- FDR actively opposed federal anti-lynching legislation.
- Democrats called out the national guard to block black children from attending white-only schools. Republican President Eisenhower siezed control of the guard and added regular army to stop the Democrats and let the black kids go to school.
- Today Democrats still block black children from getting better education. In the largely black city of Detroit, only 20% of children graduate. That 20% is not well educated. Republicans have been trying for years to make alternatives available through voucher systems. Democrats in Detroit and around the nation insist that these poor black kids go to rotten schools.
- LBJ commonly used the N word.
- Joe Biden referred to BO as a "clean" black man. As opposed to what, Joe?
- Democratic icon Margaret Sanger had a special program designed for black people. She wanted black women to stop producing "weeds." She also had a really good time speaking to the KKK. Democrats love her.
- Democrats want to pay black women to abort their children.
- Democrats want to send federal money to foreign agencies that do abortions. This money will go largely to non-white nations.
- It isn't an accident that as the skin color of a neighborhood gets darker, liberals put in more abortuaries. The abortion industry kills black children at a much greater rate than white children, and Democrats defend them always.
The abortion industry, Democrats favorite big business, makes the KKK drool with envy. The klan had their hundreds, liberals have their millions.
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RE: Christians and Voting - 9/7/2008 3:36:53 PM
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rgod
Posts: 1475
Joined: 4/25/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
The south didn't go Republican until 1994, that was the "sea change" election when southern Democrats were swept from office. That was thanks largely to the southern Democrat in the Whitehouse. His determination to mainstream sodomy didn't help. In other words, the South didn't become Republican until long after segregation.
I think that taking this fact at face value is a bit too simplistic and doesn't accurately reflect what was really happening. We need to look at the voting patterns in both the presidential and local elections. Even today, many of the local and state elected officials in the south are democrat while at the national level many are republican. However, the division within the democratic party can be clearly seen when we examine the presidential elections. The change in southern democratic voting patterns began much earlier than 1994 as is evidenced by the win of the Dixiecrats ("The States Rights Democratic" Party) of electoral votes in Louisianna, Mississipi, Alabama, and South Carolina. (Including one electoral vote in Tennessee). Strom Thurmond, incidentally, was presidential candidate that year. The democrats at that point were quite divided, having moved away from a more conservative platform and towards a more liberal one after the New Deal in the 1930s. While the Dixiecrat party dissolved after the '48 election, the division began to deepen. 1960 marked the first time since reconstruction that a Republican presidential candidate received electoral votes in the south. As a result of Johnson's signing of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, he said:
"I think we just delivered the South to the Republican Party for a long time to come."
(Source: http://www.digitalnpq.org/archive/1987_winter/second.html)
Nixon won the election in 1968 and 1972. Humphrey only carried Texas in the south - all of the rest of the electoral college southern votes when to Nixon.
The is due in large part to the infamous "Southern Strategy" during the Nixon years, which is summarized in a 1970's New York Times article in which James Boyd wrote:
"From now on, the Republicans are never going to get more than 10 to 20 percent of the Negro vote and they don't need any more than that... but Republicans would be shortsighted if they weakened enforcement of the Voting Rights Act. The more Negroes who register as Democrats in the South, the sooner the Negrophobe whites will quit the Democrats and become Republicans. That's where the votes are. Without that prodding from the blacks, the whites will backslide into their old comfortable arrangement with the local Democrats."
(See http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/books/phillips-southern.pdf for the full text of that article.)
After Nixon's impeachment, there was a definite slowing of the change in the 1970s, but the defection from the principles of the democratic party of the Reagan Democrats (some of who were northern whites).
Interestingly enough, the Northeast was once "the bastion of the Republican Party." However, in 2004, all northeastern states, from pennsylvania to maine voted for Kerry.
So, while the position of the two parties (republican and democrat) concerning social issues changed much more quickly, the change in terms of the makeup of their supporters took a longer time.
My entire point and reason for posting was that I feel that it is somewhat misleading to say: "The Dems are also the ones who stood against desegregation - George Wallace, Orval Faubus, Ross Barnett, Lester Maddox, and many more, yet they want to take credit for leading the desegregation movement," when clearly the democratic party was deeply divided during that period - and that there were two factions that existed - side by side - who opposed each other on social issues.
< Message edited by rgod -- 9/7/2008 4:21:40 PM >
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RE: How Could a Christian Support Obama? - 9/7/2008 4:02:48 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
How Could a Christian Support Obama?
Only by holding their nose and wearing a HazMat suit!
Thanks
RC
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RE: Christians and Voting - 9/7/2008 4:15:09 PM
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rgod
Posts: 1475
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quote:
- Republicans voted in greater proportion for the Civil Rights act than Democrats.
Which Civil Rights act are you speaking of - the one vetoed in 1990 by George Bush Sr. or the one in 1964? I'm interested in finding out a bit more about this.
quote:
- Segregationists were almost always Democrats.
I addressed this in my last post, but would be glad to clarify. I think that it has been established that since segregation was, for the most part, in the south, and that the south voted democratic because the republicans were "anti-slavery" during reconstruction and this was their response - it would follow that the segregationists would be democrats. It is also clear that the direction of the democratic party started to change during the New Deal era.
quote:
- The KKK was to the Democrats what NARAL is to them now. Notice that they're still on the side of oppression. And still have a former klan leader in the US Senate, Robery Byrd.
Could you explain a bit more about what you mean concerning the KKK and NARAL? I would like to know specifically, on what grounds you make that correlation (so that we can discuss it further). I am familiar with Byrd. I have also watched his voting records and statements to the press concerning his former membership with the klan.
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- FDR actively opposed federal anti-lynching legislation.
This is true. I believe that the reason that he stated doing this was because he didn't want to lose the upcoming election - despite the fact that the public supported the anti-lynching campaign (based on the polls that I found online).
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- Democrats called out the national guard to block black children from attending white-only schools. Republican President Eisenhower siezed control of the guard and added regular army to stop the Democrats and let the black kids go to school.
I believe that you are speaking of Little Rock in 1957 - which is in Arkansas - but if you aren't, please let me know. Again, if we place this in context of the history that I provided in my last post (or you can look it up yourself - I'll be glad to share my sources with you if you'd like to check it out), it will make sense as to why the democrats in arkansas under then governor Orval Faubus who was a Dixiecrat, did this. While this was definitely a landmark moment during the civil rights era, it would be misleading to mention this fact, without mentioning that contributions that were made by other factions of the democratic party (i.e. the signing of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Economic Opportunity Act (64), Voting Rights Act 1965 - among others). Both parties have stood against civil rights legislation and both have supported it.
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- Today Democrats still block black children from getting better education. In the largely black city of Detroit, only 20% of children graduate. That 20% is not well educated. Republicans have been trying for years to make alternatives available through voucher systems. Democrats in Detroit and around the nation insist that these poor black kids go to rotten schools.
- LBJ commonly used the N word.
- Joe Biden referred to BO as a "clean" black man. As opposed to what, Joe?
- Democratic icon Margaret Sanger had a special program designed for black people. She wanted black women to stop producing "weeds." She also had a really good time speaking to the KKK. Democrats love her.
- Democrats want to pay black women to abort their children.
- Democrats want to send federal money to foreign agencies that do abortions. This money will go largely to non-white nations.
- It isn't an accident that as the skin color of a neighborhood gets darker, liberals put in more abortuaries. The abortion industry kills black children at a much greater rate than white children, and Democrats defend them always.
The abortion industry, Democrats favorite big business, makes the KKK drool with envy. The klan had their hundreds, liberals have their millions.
All of these statements basically fall outside of the point that I was making (which was about the historical changes in the social positions of the two parties). But, if you want to discuss them, I'd be more than happy to - although you'll have to provide some source data for me to be able to come up to speed with some of what you are talking about ("democrats wanting to pay black women to abort their children" for example). Without source data to back up some of the assertions - and without specifics - it is hard for me to evaluate what you are saying with any significant degree of objectivity. Also, not all of your points address the OP's question, so perhaps a new thread would need to be started.
Thanks!
rgod
< Message edited by rgod -- 9/7/2008 4:28:12 PM >
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RE: Christians and Voting - 9/8/2008 12:37:17 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1032
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Maybe these guys did change party affiliation, but not until the handwriting was on the wall (segregation was coming to an end). They were staunch segregationist Democrats up until that time.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: rgod
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
The list could probably go on forever. The Dems are also the ones who stood against desegregation - George Wallace, Orval Faubus, Ross Barnett, Lester Maddox, and many more, yet they want to take credit for leading the desegregation movement.
I had to chime in on this point. Did you realize that during the 1940's throughout the early 70's that the two parties - republican and democrat - essentially switched ideologies (at least on desegregation)? During that period of time, the democrats were in transition. Remember, the Republicans at that time were truly the party of Lincoln - to many whites in the south who were pro-slavery voted Democrat during Reconstruction and beyond. The Democratic party made a dramatic shift during the time of FDR - with his introduction of the New Deal - and became a lot more populist. Some southern whites, who promoted segregation, continued to vote Democrat. This all started to change around 1948, when Truman (a democrat) desegregated the military. At that time, the Dixiecrats (a group of white, southern, pro-segregationist, democrats) started pushing a very strong segregationist platform. The mainstream democrats for the most part disagreed because they wanted to court the black vote. The GOP wanted to court the white southern segregationist vote, and won it during Nixon's run - with the ardent help of Strom Thurman - who later became republican. Orval Faubus was a dixiecrat. George Wallace and Lester Maddox became members of the American Independent Party, which also at the time were also courting the white southern segregationist vote. Ross Barnett - who was a member of the KKK, was defeated in 1964 - ironically the same year that a number of dixiecrats left the party over the infamous Democratic Party Convention of 1964 (it is a fascinating story that you might want to become familiar with if you aren't already - particularly Fannie Lou Hamer's role as a Freedom Democrat. She and Barnett were both from Mississipi I believe. If you look it up though - don't end with 1964, but look at Hamer's role in 1968 as well).
So what is interesting is that the democrats DID speahead a lot of the desegregation movement. It is important to note that King and the other civil rights parties at the time embraced - and were embraced - by the democrats because the democratic mainstream wanted desegregation. In time, it became aparent that segregation was wrong and interestingly enough, in 1970, Nixon decided to actively enforce Brown vs. The Board of Education - when seven states were in open defiance of it (Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina and South Carolina). So, while both parties did have a role to play in desegregation - I believe that it is inaccurate to say that because a faction of the Democratic party didn't support it, that this applied to the party as a whole.
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The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Christians and Voting - 9/8/2008 1:15:20 PM
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rcamejo01
Posts: 309
Joined: 8/27/2007
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quote:
George Wallace and Lester Maddox became members of the American Independent Party, which also at the time were also courting the white southern segregationist vote.
If we're going to mention Gov. Wallace by name, we might as well also mention that in the 70's he became a Born Again Christian and apologized to African American civil rights leaders for his segregationist views and sought forgivness from the African American population in his state. He also had many african americans appointed to state government positions during his final term as Governor of Alabama. As a Southerner myself I think it's a great thing when someone who was reared in ignorance can "see that light."
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RE: Christians and Voting - 9/8/2008 2:25:40 PM
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rgod
Posts: 1475
Joined: 4/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcamejo01
quote:
George Wallace and Lester Maddox became members of the American Independent Party, which also at the time were also courting the white southern segregationist vote.
If we're going to mention Gov. Wallace by name, we might as well also mention that in the 70's he became a Born Again Christian and apologized to African American civil rights leaders for his segregationist views and sought forgivness from the African American population in his state. He also had many african americans appointed to state government positions during his final term as Governor of Alabama. As a Southerner myself I think it's a great thing when someone who was reared in ignorance can "see that light."
Great point! I too am always glad when I see when the Lord changes someone's heart - it is such an awesome testimony. Thanks for pointing this out!
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RE: Christians and Voting - 9/8/2008 2:39:42 PM
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rgod
Posts: 1475
Joined: 4/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AdrianaS
Hey rgod, thanks for the history class! I was just trying to make sense what a friend told me about Rebublican "party of Lincoln" and Democrats being the original pro-slavers | | |
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