|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 10:56:06 PM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
No they aren't. Take a look at the 10 commandments and tell me how many of them are actually laws in this country.
Ten Commandments of God, listed in order <---- Ignore at your own risk...
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. <---- Ignore at your own risk...
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image. <---- Ignore at your own risk...
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. <---- Ignore at your own risk...
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. <---- Law Some "blue laws" are still enforced...
5. Honour thy father and thy mother. <---- Law, children are bound by the law to honor(obey) their parents to some degree
6. Thou shalt not kill. <---- Law
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery. <---- Law
8. Thou shalt not steal. <---- Law
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. <---- Law
10. Thou shalt not covet. <---- Ignore at your own risk...
quote:
Of those that aren't, how many should be (both from a purely moral standpoint and from a practical/pragmatic standpoint)?
They should all be since God's law is supreme... He will not grant anyone immunity because His law wasn't enforced...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 11:01:30 PM
|
|
|
inthysite
Posts: 770
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
|
I've deleted this post because the reference I used was questionable at best. I will respond again when I have more time. Sorry.
< Message edited by inthysite -- 8/25/2008 11:17:50 PM >
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 11:58:28 PM
|
|
|
blessedinnyc
Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them
Man, this looks an awful lot like that god that derives from natural law that the 18th century Deists talked about.
quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
quote:
What a secular god were they referring to?
Do I need to quote it for you? "nature's God." This text reads as though it's more in support of new age religion than Christianity. However, both of us know better. It was written in the 18th century style of secular Deism.
quote:
The Constitution doesn't trump God's ordained purpose and the government is obligated to the source of it's authority, that being God to obey Him...
It doesn't, but history indicates that it makes the most sense- for the sake of God's will- to follow the secular process here. If everyone purely voted based on reason, elections would be predictable and would generally elect someone who was in the long-term best interests of the country. Since the rules God set up make it so that it's in our long-term best interests to do his will, it seems natural that all things being equal, the secular reasoning process will lean towards those who favor God.
Now, we could use religious reasoning, but all the non-Christians could do that, too (many of whom may not be the biggest fans of God.) And if we still manage to win, they will blame all of the candidate's problems on the Christians and God.
So a much better approach to picking a candidate is to use secular reasoning. God doesn't want to get mixed up in politics- he said so Himself in Matthew 22. And if secular reasoning conflicts with your biblical reasoning, that probably means that one of your conclusions is wrong and it's best to not vote. (Or vote for a third party.  )
The last thing we want to do is to have Jesus take perceived responsibility for the "Christians'" candidate.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 8/26/2008 12:13:17 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Government and Morality - 8/26/2008 12:21:37 AM
|
|
|
SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Man, this looks an awful lot like that god that derives from natural law that the 18th century Deists talked about.
I was wondering where I note the lower case....
quote:
Do I need to quote it for you? "nature's God." This text reads as though it's more in support of new age religion than Christianity. However, both of us know better. It was written in the 18th century style of secular Deism.
Sure it was... Still wondering where to not the lower case...
quote:
It doesn't, but history indicates that it makes the most sense- for the sake of God's will- to follow the secular process here. If everyone purely voted based on reason, elections would be predictable and would generally elect someone who was in the long-term best interests of the country .
Only for those who put their faith in secular reason and not God...
quote:
Since the rules God set up make it so that it's in our long-term best interests to do his will, it seems natural that all things being equal, the secular reasoning process will lean towards those who favor God.
It doesn't... Secular reasoning process has man saying things God calls abomination as ok...
quote:
Now, we could use religious reasoning, but all the non-Christians could do that, too (many of whom may not be the biggest fans of God.) And if we still manage to win, they will blame all of the candidate's problems on the Christians and God.
So...
quote:
So a much better approach to picking a candidate is to use secular reasoning.
Other than to rationalize it, why?
quote:
God doesn't want to get mixed up in politics- he said so Himself in Matthew 22.
I read the chapter... No mention of what you said...
quote:
And if secular reasoning conflicts with your biblical reasoning, that probably means that one of your conclusions is wrong and it's best to not vote. (Or vote for a third party. )
I don't have two masters...
quote:
The last thing we want to do is to have Jesus take perceived responsibility for the "Christians'" candidate.
Who is we, and what does Jesus have to fear?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Government and Morality - 8/26/2008 7:42:01 AM
|
|
|
huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
|
honestly, with the mentions of "secular reasoning" and "secular morality", my challenge to all the liberals on this thread would be to examine where they come from...
and why it doesn't match with judeo-christianity morality...
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Government and Morality - 8/26/2008 8:24:17 AM
|
|
|
iluvatar
Posts: 1934
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
No they aren't. Take a look at the 10 commandments and tell me how many of them are actually laws in this country.
Ten Commandments of God, listed in order <---- Ignore at your own risk...
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. <---- Ignore at your own risk...
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image. <---- Ignore at your own risk...
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. <---- Ignore at your own risk...
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. <---- Law Some "blue laws" are still enforced...
5. Honour thy father and thy mother. <---- Law, children are bound by the law to honor(obey) their parents to some degree
6. Thou shalt not kill. <---- Law
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery. <---- Law
8. Thou shalt not steal. <---- Law
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. <---- Law
10. Thou shalt not covet. <---- Ignore at your own risk...
I'd argue 4, 5, 7 & 9. 4 only applies in a few places; 5 - parents may be responsible for the kids, but kids can't be jailed for disobedience; 7 - is a civil matter; 9 is a civil matter.
But even by your account, 4 aren't laws (1, 2, 3, 10) and 2 are iffy (4, 5). At best, you're looking at 6 out of the 10 commandments being codified, with 2 of those being questionable. By my account, 2 are laws (6, 8) with 2 more (7, 9) bearing some measure of civil penalty.
Either way, that's not enough to convince me that our laws were based on the 10 commandments.
quote:
quote:
Of those that aren't, how many should be (both from a purely moral standpoint and from a practical/pragmatic standpoint)?
They should all be since God's law is supreme... He will not grant anyone immunity because His law wasn't enforced...
So you think we should turn America into a Christian theocracy? You support the prohibition of all other religions? Also, how would you suggest that we legislate a ban on jealousy?
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Government and Morality - 8/26/2008 8:49:16 AM
|
|
|
huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
|
"I'd argue 4, 5, 7 & 9. 4 only applies in a few places; 5 - parents may be responsible for the kids, but kids can't be jailed for disobedience;"
dude, it's called Juvenile Hall (and of course the court can send a kid there buddy)...and even in some cases, parents are being arrested for their kids problems...
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Government and Morality - 8/26/2008 8:57:31 AM
|
|
|
iluvatar
Posts: 1934
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
"I'd argue 4, 5, 7 & 9. 4 only applies in a few places; 5 - parents may be responsible for the kids, but kids can't be jailed for disobedience;"
dude, it's called Juvenile Hall (and of course the court can send a kid there buddy)...and even in some cases, parents are being arrested for their kids problems...
What sorts of transgressions are we talking about? Staying out after curfew? Talking back? Not doing your homework?
Or are we talking about things that are legitimate crimes or dangerous behavior? Things like stealing, violence, drug use...
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Government and Morality - 8/26/2008 9:02:41 AM
|
|
|
huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
"I'd argue 4, 5, 7 & 9. 4 only applies in a few places; 5 - parents may be responsible for the kids, but kids can't be jailed for disobedience;"
dude, it's called Juvenile Hall (and of course the court can send a kid there buddy)...and even in some cases, parents are being arrested for their kids problems...
What sorts of transgressions are we talking about? Staying out after curfew? Talking back? Not doing your homework?
Or are we talking about things that are legitimate crimes or dangerous behavior? Things like stealing, violence, drug use...
-Dan.
we'll let the court decide that one...but, isn't it funny that simple things like pure disobedience turn into the bigger things like drugs and arson??? that is why encouraging youth to obey their parents, whom i hope love them (and i understand the cases of where there isn't love), is necessarry, even to the point of illustrating consequences through judicial action...
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
