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Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 11:00:01 AM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
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From: Wheaton, IL
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I am starting this thread because it needs to be started...
i believe that as debaters and thinkers, we have to be concerned about whether morality and law work together or conflict or such and such...
but, i will let you answer this one, believe me, i will chime in (like that has relevance anyway)...
the reason this is here in elections is that to determine the issues that have meaning in our concerns for whomever we vote for. it is matter of what is important.
if morality has importance in our law, then we have to drift that way in our laws. so can anybody support this or deny it???
i do remember being in a debate about dualism (religion and law separated)
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"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 11:21:29 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1226
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Yeah, that was me harping about dualism :) That is basically a world view that holds the "sacred" and "secular" to be totally separate from each other. Regarding politics, it usually looks something like this: "My faith is very important to me, but that is a private personal matter and will have no influence on the way I govern". This is of course just silly. If you have a faith that can be contained in only one aspect of your life, it really isn't much of a faith. When we become Christians, we take the kingdom of God EVERYWHERE we go. We need to bring light into every dark area, renewing every aspect of a formally "good" creation. It shouldn't be, "I am a Christian, and I am a Senator". It should be, "I am a Christian Senator". A Senator who is a Christian should govern in a Christian manner. They should honor the Lord in every vote they cast and every bill they sponsor.
You cannot compartmentalize your faith, walling it off from other parts of your life. One's Christian faith should inform one in everything one does, not just how you act in church on Sunday. You are an ambassador of Christ when you are being a father. You are an ambassador of Christ when you are mowing your lawn. You are an ambassador of Christ when you are driving. You are an ambassador of Christ when you are posting to internet forums. You an ambassador of Christ when you are working, and you are an ambassador of Christ when you are plunging a toilet. Our faith is a saturating faith, the old things are gone and ALL things are new.
I know this is rambling (I am typing from a gas station wi-fi spot as I am waitng to go to work), but I hope that made at least SOME sense!
I will leave the issue of government responsibility to govern justly and be a force opposed to evil to someone else for now 
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 11:46:04 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7832
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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I don't think there are really any 'amoral' laws as a laws are reflections of what we as a society consider to be good and bad actions - and what is morality but a description of good and bad actions? Their may be points where one good might come into conflict with another, and so we have to shape our laws accordingly, but our laws must necessarily reflect a form of morality.
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Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 11:50:42 AM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
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All the 'morality' needed by the United States government is defined in the Constitution and in the subsequent two-plus centuries of interpretation and implementation by the institutions created by the Constitituion for that purpose.
'Rule of law', revisionists - we need no more.
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 11:57:48 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7832
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
All the 'morality' needed by the United States government is defined in the Constitution and in the subsequent two-plus centuries of interpretation and implementation by the institutions created by the Constitituion for that purpose.
'Rule of law', revisionists - we need no more.
Actually, the Constitution says almost nothing about the vast majority of laws we have. It of course speaks much about the means by which such laws might develop trhough the various branches of government it defines, and it places limits on those branches of government with regard to certain kinds of laws, but it assumes certain moral truths, it doesn't define them.
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Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 12:16:03 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
All the 'morality' needed by the United States government is defined in the Constitution and in the subsequent two-plus centuries of interpretation and implementation by the institutions created by the Constitituion for that purpose.
'Rule of law', revisionists - we need no more.
Actually, the Constitution says almost nothing about the vast majority of laws we have. It of course speaks much about the means by which such laws might develop trhough the various branches of government it defines, and it places limits on those branches of government with regard to certain kinds of laws, but it assumes certain moral truths, it doesn't define them.
Which, of course, is exactly what I said, even though you thought you were stating otherwise. Did you misunderstand what I posted? Or did you just not read the part that said "...interpretation and implementation by the institutions created by the Constitituion for that purpose." ?
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 12:24:49 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7832
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Which, of course, is exactly what I said, even though you thought you were stating otherwise. Did you misunderstand what I posted? Or did you just not read the part that said "...interpretation and implementation by the institutions created by the Constitituion for that purpose." ?
Do I need to pick it apart?
You said, "All the 'morality' needed by the United States government is defined in the Constitution" - my point is that it isn't at all.
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Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 12:36:10 PM
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inthysite
Posts: 770
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Our country and our Constitution were founded on Christian principles. Our laws are based on the 10 commandments. All of God's laws are moral so to answer your question, yes morality and law go hand in hand, or at least they should.
As we continue to remove God from our society then the moral standard changes from God's word to what is currently acceptable by society. You can see this by comparing what is considered acceptable now compared to what was acceptable 50 years ago.
We as a society continue to try and push the envelope of what is considered moral and acceptable, little by little. A perfect example of this is television. At first even married couples couldn't be seen lying in the same bed together. Over time this was allowed, now strangers are shown not only in bed but in the very act of sexual intercourse.
It used to be you couldn't show nudity on television, now that line is getting fuzzier and fuzzier.
When we remove God as the standard bearer then who is it that decides what is moral? You? Me? What if we disagree, then what. There must be a constant, something we can always look to, something to verify we are on the right track.
If we keep God as our standard bearer then our laws, our lives must reflect that. Romans 13 states that we must follow man's law because all authority is given by God and therefor they are God's servant. However, in Acts chapters 4 and 5 Peter illustrates that when man's law contradicts God's law then we are to obey God rather than man.
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Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 3:08:12 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3960
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quote:
ORIGINAL: inthysite
Our country and our Constitution were founded on Christian principles. Our laws are based on the 10 commandments.
Christ is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution or any official founding documents. The Ten Commandments preceeded Christ. It would be more accurate to say that the US was founded on Jewish principles.
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Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 3:11:19 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 2143
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On so many issues, we hear the left crying that you can't legislate morality. Well, yes you can, just so long as it is THEIR morality.
They are perfectly fine with the morality that allows unborn children to be butchered or gay couples to marry, but any attempt to change that is somehow "legislating morality".
Just depends on which side of the moral fence you fall on...
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"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 3:25:36 PM
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inthysite
Posts: 770
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quote:
The Ten Commandments preceeded Christ. It would be more accurate to say that the US was founded on Jewish principles.
John 1:1-2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Christ is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. He always was, is and will be.
quote:
Christ is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution or any official founding documents.
I didn't say the Constitution mentioned Christ but rather was based on Christian principles. Seeing how Christ is God I would say that is an accurate statement.
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 3:29:58 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/12/2007
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I think that the government does enforce a limited morality, but the framers seemed to imply that it should derive from natural law. Humans can't coexist if murder is acceptable, so that rules that out. Almost all laws that we have revolve around keeping society sustainable.
My view is that if we haven't had any law enforced for the past generation or so, and we've survived, then it is no longer part of the mandatory secular morality that we need to enforce.
Naturally, secular morality is an incomplete (and often incorrect) picture of God's morality. God's morality doesn't prohibit the open criticism of elected officials, but the secular morality in some countries states otherwise. Likewise, God's morality is probably against many kinds of abortion, but under the secular morality, this may be acceptable.
The government's job is just to keep society functioning, and by doing so, it enforces many aspects of God's morality- but not necessarily all.
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 4:32:37 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3960
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: inthysite
quote:
The Ten Commandments preceeded Christ. It would be more accurate to say that the US was founded on Jewish principles.
John 1:1-2
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Christ is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. He always was, is and will be.
quote:
Christ is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution or any official founding documents.
I didn't say the Constitution mentioned Christ but rather was based on Christian principles. Seeing how Christ is God I would say that is an accurate statement.
I was referring to the earthly Christ and , hence, Christianity. But thanks for helping me make that point more clearly.
It would be an accurate statement of one reads the Constitution with a blindfold. The deist approach is really more accurate. That would include many religions. Had the founding fathers endorsed one religion (in this case Christianity) it would have been inconsistent with the notion of religious liberty.
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Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 5:51:10 PM
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inthysite
Posts: 770
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
It would be an accurate statement of one reads the Constitution with a blindfold. The deist approach is really more accurate. That would include many religions. Had the founding fathers endorsed one religion (in this case Christianity) it would have been inconsistent with the notion of religious liberty.
Actually some of the statements made by the founding fathers seem to contradict what you are claiming:
John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress
John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.
“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61
Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech
Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”
On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”
"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]
"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
These are but a few, I can provide more if you like.
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 6:04:58 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3960
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: inthysite
quote:
It would be an accurate statement of one reads the Constitution with a blindfold. The deist approach is really more accurate. That would include many religions. Had the founding fathers endorsed one religion (in this case Christianity) it would have been inconsistent with the notion of religious liberty.
Actually some of the statements made by the founding fathers seem to contradict what you are claiming:
John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]
John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”
• “[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”
–John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress
John Quincy Adams:
• “Why is it that, next to the birthday of the Savior of the world, your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day [the Fourth of July]?" “Is it not that, in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer's mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
--1837, at the age of 69, when he delivered a Fourth of July speech at Newburyport, Massachusetts.
“The Law given from Sinai [The Ten Commandments] was a civil and municipal as well as a moral and religious code.”
John Quincy Adams. Letters to his son. p. 61
Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech
Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”
On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”
"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]
"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
These are but a few, I can provide more if you like.
No mention of Christ or Christianity in the Constitution because .....................................?
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Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 6:10:49 PM
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inthysite
Posts: 770
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
No mention of Christ or Christianity in the Constitution because .....................................?
What would you like it to say, "Thus saith the Lord!"?
I have given you quotes from the founding fathers that clearly state they based their freedom, this country and the Constitution on the principles of Christianity, which is what I claimed to begin with and what you disputed.
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 9:51:51 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
All the 'morality' needed by the United States government is defined in the Constitution and in the subsequent two-plus centuries of interpretation and implementation by the institutions created by the Constitituion for that purpose.
The immoral laws on the books say otherwise...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 9:53:22 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: inthysite
Our country and our Constitution were founded on Christian principles. Our laws are based on the 10 commandments.
Christ is not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution or any official founding documents. The Ten Commandments preceeded Christ. It would be more accurate to say that the US was founded on Jewish principles.
The origin of the Ten Commandments is God, therefore Jesus as well...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 9:58:08 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
I was referring to the earthly Christ and , hence, Christianity. But thanks for helping me make that point more clearly.
Christ the same yesterday, today and forever....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 10:05:51 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
I think that the government does enforce a limited morality, but the framers seemed to imply that it should derive from natural law.
If that's the case why did they say the following?
"endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"
quote:
Naturally, secular morality is an incomplete (and often incorrect) picture of God's morality. God's morality doesn't prohibit the open criticism of elected officials, but the secular morality in some countries states otherwise. Likewise, God's morality is probably against many kinds of abortion, but under the secular morality, this may be acceptable.
Of course what is acceptable in the ever sliding scale of secular morality will not grant one relief for breaking God's law... Even the government...
quote:
The government's job is just to keep society functioning, and by doing so, it enforces many aspects of God's morality- but not necessarily all.
The governments ordained purpose is to be God's minister of wrath for those who do evil so if anyone thinks they are not going to be held accountable for promoting sin they are kidding themselves...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 10:06:29 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
My view is that if we haven't had any law enforced for the past generation or so, and we've survived, then it is no longer part of the mandatory secular morality that we need to enforce.
So you would no longer consider slavery illegal? 
If I lived in the south in 1855, I wouldn't consider slavery contrary to the secular morality- though it may be contrary to God's morality. The secular morality is occasionally wrong, and when it is, it tends to correct itself.
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 10:10:56 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1961
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
If that's the case why did they say the following?
"endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"
Good question. The first thing that I would point to would be the term "Creator", not "Heavenly Father". The "Creator" that the framers speak of is a secular god. (note the lower-case.)
quote:
Of course what is acceptable in the ever sliding scale of secular morality will not grant one relief for breaking God's law... Even the government...
Agreed. There is a fundamental divine law to the universe that the government does not always follow. The government cannot exempt people from following this divine law.
quote:
The governments ordained purpose is to be God's minister of wrath for those who do evil so if anyone thinks they are not going to be held accountable for promoting sin they are kidding themselves...
This may be a good Biblical perspective. However, it is not a good perspective relative to our obligations under the constitution, which, IMHO, is the perspective we are asked to take we talk about the constitutional government's secular role.
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 10:22:52 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Good question. The first thing that I would point to would be the term "Creator", not "Heavenly Father". The "Creator" that the framers speak of is a secular god. (note the lower-case.)
http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/freedom/doi/text.html
Declaration of Independence
Here is the complete text of the Declaration of Independence.
The original spelling and capitalization have been retained.
(Adopted by Congress on July 4, 1776)
The Unanimous Declaration
of the Thirteen United States of America
When, in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bonds which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
What a secular god were they referring to?
quote:
This may be a good Biblical perspective. However, it is not a good perspective relative to our obligations under the constitution, which, IMHO, is the perspective we are asked to take we talk about the constitutional government's secular role.
The Constitution doesn't trump God's ordained purpose and the government is obligated to the source of it's authority, that being God to obey Him...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Government and Morality - 8/25/2008 10:29:42 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1934
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: inthysite
Our country and our Constitution were founded on Christian principles. Our laws are based on the 10 commandments.
No they aren't. Take a look at the 10 commandments and tell me how many of them are actually laws in this country. Of those that aren't, how many should be (both from a purely moral standpoint and from a practical/pragmatic standpoint)?
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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