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[Deleted] - 9/4/2008 10:25:33 PM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/4/2008 10:27:07 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ladioffaith
FIRST THINGS FIRST ... I am sorry for your loss.
I have heard many learned preachers teach on an "age of accountability." That's not to say a child's salvation is not genuine if it is earlier ... just that I honestly do not believe God would condemn a child for something he is not old enough to understand.
Before they were born neither having done good or bad He choose one over the other...
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John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/4/2008 10:34:08 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
Fair enough. Than I will take that to mean God sees all of humankind as "good," loves them all as creatures created in His Image, sent his Son to die for them all and desires none of them to perish.
I agree.
That's not what I mean.... We don't agree...
quote:
I am not trying to have a confrotation with you or anyone, John. I asked a simple question and asked nicely that instead of sending me off to read all your posts you just answer it. I would do the same for you if you asked.
I did answer your question, and I didn't send you off... I simply pointed out the fact that I have already posted a lot of information that is readily available... There is no need to recreate the wheel each time someone enters a thread...
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John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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[Deleted] - 9/4/2008 10:42:27 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/5/2008 6:58:49 AM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/5/2008 8:27:53 AM
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drmark
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I am interested in your take on Eph 2:8 relative to the OP, emerging. The verse suggests to me that we are saved by appropriating God's grace through our faith. Is your position for the salvation of the unaccountable that their faith is imputed to them? Or that saving grace does not always require faith based on knowing what one believes? Or maybe some other explanation - I'm open for suggestions.
Edited TOS 6
< Message edited by Kath -- 9/5/2008 2:20:22 PM >
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/5/2008 10:26:58 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 463
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From: Kansas
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John,
quote:
Age isn't a factor since grace isn't merited...
A while back drmark said he was going to have to chew over my comments concerning grace being merited/acquired vs being activated. He was having to do so because of the scriptures I posted pointing out that grace is merited according to scripture...while being defined as unmerited, only by the definiton of orthodoxy.
So I''m curious as your handling of these same two scriptures that tell us grace IS merited.
JAM 4:6 But he gives more grace; therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble." 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God.
1PE 5:5 Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."
You really don't have to respond to this post since you appear to be in the thick of things anyway. But in light of scripture can you share even one that says 'Grace is unmerited favor'?
drmark,
Are you still chewing them also, or have you decided it's possible that the traditional answer may not have been totally correct?
DR
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When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/5/2008 10:33:25 AM
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drmark
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The answer is in the definition of "merit". I'm still chomping.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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[Deleted] - 9/5/2008 11:39:37 AM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/5/2008 12:18:15 PM
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DaveW
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Emerging - do you believe that all are "saved" in the sense of all go to paradise/heaven and none go to sheol/genenna/hell?
If so, why the great commission? Why preach the gospel Why did Jesus warn us so vigerously about hell?
Surely HE knew his words would only be heard by a handfull of people prior to His death, but untold billions would hear it afterward. How could anyone think he was ONLY warning his immediate audience?
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/5/2008 12:25:31 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 463
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drmark,
Still chomping  , and upon the definiton of 'merit'??? Now you've driven me to Noah Webster's 1828 dict. I almost don't even want to share what 'I'm seeing'.
MERIT: to deserve; to earn by active service, or by any valuable performance...
Now I would think that "putting on humility" by "submitting ourselves" or "clothing ourselves", as both verses mandate, meets the qualifiers for both of the above definitions.
UNMERITED: Not merited; not deserved; obtained without service or equivalent.
As far as unmerited/not deserved all I can say is apparently God doesn't agree...because if He did agree it wouldn't have been given to us (for any reason). But as to the obtained without service definition I have to say 'Me submitting myself' and 'Me clothing myself' might just qualify as a service especially in light of another scripture.
ROM 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
But now we add another word into the mix...the mercy of God. Now here is a word that qualifies as "unmerited favor" IMO.
DR
I don't want to sidetrack the thread with this though.
< Message edited by Him4all -- 9/5/2008 12:36:59 PM >
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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[Deleted] - 9/5/2008 1:25:44 PM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/5/2008 1:43:32 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
You are welcome to disagree with me. However, does scripture proclaim that God, through Christ, has reconciled all things unto himself? Yes or no?
I disagree with your perception... You "don't know" as you told Mr Firbbles when he asked if people from other beliefs would be in heaven...
Your view of reconciled seems to equate to all are in heaven cept those who jumped out the window...
quote:
It isn't lost on me that Jesus is missing from your argument.
Since you"don't know" if Jesus is the only way I am curious why you mention Him here?
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John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/5/2008 1:48:25 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
So I''m curious as your handling of these same two scriptures that tell us grace IS merited.
JAM 4:6 But he gives more grace; therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble." 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God.
1PE 5:5 Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."
You really don't have to respond to this post since you appear to be in the thick of things anyway. But in light of scripture can you share even one that says 'Grace is unmerited favor'?
Romans 9
Jacob did nothing to receive God's favor...
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
8Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
I will add as well that the fleas cannot please God (Romans 8) therefore leaving only the Spirit...
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John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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[Deleted] - 9/5/2008 1:51:33 PM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/5/2008 2:12:58 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
Like I said, John, feel free to disagree. But just saying you disagree with my perception isn't moving a conversation along at all. Once again, I asked you a simple, direct question and you evaded it. Let me try again:
Asked and answered.... If you don't like my answer that is not my problem...
quote:
That is absurd.
You were asked....
Given your varied definitions of universalism, perhaps it would be better to ask it this way - will all people, regardless of their faith in Christ on this earth, be allowed into heaven in the next life?
You responded...
Just to be clear, those are not MY definitions of universalism. They are just what they are. I am merely citing them.
But thank you for putting the question in the way you have. The simple answer to your question is: I don't know.
quote:
Looking back over my posts you can't MISS seeing Jesus Christ as central to everything I have written. It is all over the place. However, rather than asking you to go back and reread what you apparently only skimmed over the first time here is just a snippet from page 8, post #184. I have put in bold the part you seem to have missed for your own convenience:
I didn't skim over... Your "I don't know" is in conflict with your mentions of Christ... If Christ is central to everything there is no room for "I don't know..." It can't be both...
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John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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[Deleted] - 9/5/2008 2:33:26 PM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/5/2008 4:25:59 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
Um, no, you haven't answered it. You said God's posture is the same to humankind as it always has been.
I said it's the same to all of mankind... In that He doesn't see babies, infants, toddlers, teenagers, young adults, adults and the elderly....
quote:
I am trying to show you what Scripture says that posture is.
You are trying to show me what you think scriptures says...
quote:
No. You are misunderstanding me. My "I don't know" is to say that where someone who does not know Christ may end up for eternity is in God's hands, not mine. You failed to quote the rest of what I said where I say I will err on the side of grace over wrath and hold out hope for an empty hell and a full heaven. Also, how can you miss that I have said over and over that IF God chooses to save everyone it will be BECAUSE of Jesus Christ and nothing else?
I didn't miss it I weighted against your "I don't know" to a question posed by someone else...
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John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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[Deleted] - 9/5/2008 4:31:04 PM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/5/2008 4:50:01 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
What does this mean?
God sees all of mankind as the same...
quote:
What are you basing this on?
God's word...
quote:
And what IS the posture you say is the same to all of mankind? What is so hard about just answering the question?
I did answer... God sees everyone the same...
quote:
John, I have opened the door for you to say otherwise. I have shown you what scripture SAYS.
I'll play the scriptures says game...
Scriptures say God created the wicked for the day of evil...
It even mentions God repenting of evil...
Well?
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John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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[Deleted] - 9/5/2008 4:55:13 PM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/5/2008 6:17:19 PM
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Him4all
Posts: 463
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Kansas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
So I''m curious as your handling of these same two scriptures that tell us grace IS merited.
JAM 4:6 But he gives more grace; therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble." 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God.
1PE 5:5 Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders. Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."
You really don't have to respond to this post since you appear to be in the thick of things anyway. But in light of scripture can you share even one that says 'Grace is unmerited favor'?
Romans 9
Jacob did nothing to receive God's favor...
Am I missing something in your post? Remember 'unmerited FAVOR' is not my definition of grace it orthodox's def. As I said earlier MERCY is closer to unmerited favor IMO. So in your above quote I would agree that Jacob did nothing to receive God's favor/MERCY. And the Rom 9 verses you just used aren't dealing with GRACE, they are dealing with MERCY...and compassion. So are you talking about MERCY now, or GRACE?
quote:
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
I did a study on mercy and compassion based upon the above verses and found out that compassion is basically just feeling sorry for someone, and doing nothing for them whereas mercy means to compasionate by word or deed.
MIC 7:18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.
19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their/heathen nations sins into the depths of the sea.
We, like Israel may have God's MERCY now, while the heathen nations ("their") have his COMPASSION. But in the above verse the heathen nations will one day have His mercy for their sins and we will be judged for ours as we pass through the fire of the judgment seat of Christ.
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/5/2008 7:46:19 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
which is how?
How not?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/5/2008 7:47:50 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Him4all
Am I missing something in your post? Remember 'unmerited FAVOR' is not my definition of grace it orthodox's def. As I said earlier MERCY is closer to unmerited favor IMO. So in your above quote I would agree that Jacob did nothing to receive God's favor/MERCY. And the Rom 9 verses you just used aren't dealing with GRACE, they are dealing with MERCY...and compassion. So are you talking about MERCY now, or GRACE?
Both...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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