RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/2/2008 10:58:26 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I have Scriptural support for my view (which I would share, but I have a Greek Syntax class in 9 hours, so I need sleeps). Do you? Of course I do, but you won't agree with my interpretation any more than I agree with your interpretation of Scripture. I thought we came to that understanding 3 pages ago. 
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/2/2008 1:02:33 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Of course I do
Well, I would appreciate hearing them again. A simple list would suffice, if you don't feel like re-exegeting them all over again.
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You're a door without a key,
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You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/2/2008 1:23:42 PM
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drmark
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The link in my post #9 is a reasonable place to start. It references about a half dozen Scriptures.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/2/2008 3:22:23 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
The link in my post #9 is a reasonable place to start. It references about a half dozen Scriptures.
Thank you.
If I may, I would like to mention that the link seems to provide only one text in support of the idea of an age of accountability, and in my opinion, it is a weak one. Here's why - King David, and indeed the vast majority of people during the OT period, don't seem to have a concept of personal salvation. Obviously this doesn't mean that none of them were saved. Rather, I believe it means that, except where the NT draws from its lessons on the subject, the OT is not the best place to go for learning about the means and methods of salvation.
I do agree, however, when it says this is not something we could be dogmatic about. So, just so I'm not coming across in a negative fashion, I certainly do not think that you are some heretical teacher (or anything close to that) just because we happen to disagree on this issue.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/2/2008 4:16:55 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I do agree, however, when it says this is not something we could be dogmatic about. I agree as well. So are we through "dogging" about it?
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/2/2008 4:21:55 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Actually automatic salvation for babies/infants is really nothing less than predestination...
Now that is a very interesting thought. Very.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/2/2008 8:02:00 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
So are we through "dogging" about it?
Just because a topic is inconclusive doesn't mean it doesn't warrant discussion. The ball is in your court. If you want to leave it there, that is perfectly alright with me.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/2/2008 9:15:15 PM
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Child4Jesus
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I totally believe that God is much more merciful than some make Him out to be. I absolutely can't believe that a woman has a miscarriage and that baby is destined for the lake of fire. Or a baby that dies at birth is destined for the lake of fire. Just like I can't believe that a deaf/blind/mute who hasn't gotten any access to the gospel is and dies destined for the lake of fire.
< Message edited by Child4Jesus -- 9/2/2008 11:11:37 PM >
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In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/2/2008 9:25:30 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
I totally believe that God is much more merciful than some make Him out to be. I absolutely can't believe that a woman has a miscarriage and that baby is destined for the lake of fire. Or a baby that dies at birth is destined for the lake of fire. Just like I can't believe that a deaf/blind/mute who hasn't gotten any access to the gospel is and dies is destined for the lake of fire.
Why limit His mercy to such a select few? Surely God's mercy is capable of saving everyone...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/2/2008 11:11:20 PM
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Child4Jesus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
I totally believe that God is much more merciful than some make Him out to be. I absolutely can't believe that a woman has a miscarriage and that baby is destined for the lake of fire. Or a baby that dies at birth is destined for the lake of fire. Just like I can't believe that a deaf/blind/mute who hasn't gotten any access to the gospel and dies is destined for the lake of fire.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Why limit His mercy to such a select few? Surely God's mercy is capable of saving everyone...
Who said I was limiting His mercy to those select few?
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/2/2008 11:57:23 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
I totally believe that God is much more merciful than some make Him out to be. I absolutely can't believe that a woman has a miscarriage and that baby is destined for the lake of fire. Or a baby that dies at birth is destined for the lake of fire. Just like I can't believe that a deaf/blind/mute who hasn't gotten any access to the gospel and dies is destined for the lake of fire.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Why limit His mercy to such a select few? Surely God's mercy is capable of saving everyone...
Who said I was limiting His mercy to those select few?
So you totally believe that God saves everyone?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/3/2008 12:04:12 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Who said I was limiting His mercy to those select few?
Not to put words into SovereignIsHe's mouth, but I'm pretty sure his point was that by suggesting that some people are able to receive God's grace without placing their faith in Him, the door is possibly opened for others to say that God's mercy is available for all without putting faith in Him.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/3/2008 12:21:07 AM
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Child4Jesus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
I totally believe that God is much more merciful than some make Him out to be. I absolutely can't believe that a woman has a miscarriage and that baby is destined for the lake of fire. Or a baby that dies at birth is destined for the lake of fire. Just like I can't believe that a deaf/blind/mute who hasn't gotten any access to the gospel and dies is destined for the lake of fire.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Why limit His mercy to such a select few? Surely God's mercy is capable of saving everyone...
quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
Who said I was limiting His mercy to those select few?
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
So you totally believe that God saves everyone?
Nope.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/3/2008 1:58:59 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
I totally believe that God is much more merciful than some make Him out to be. I absolutely can't believe that a woman has a miscarriage and that baby is destined for the lake of fire. Or a baby that dies at birth is destined for the lake of fire. Just like I can't believe that a deaf/blind/mute who hasn't gotten any access to the gospel and dies is destined for the lake of fire.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Why limit His mercy to such a select few? Surely God's mercy is capable of saving everyone...
quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
Who said I was limiting His mercy to those select few?
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
So you totally believe that God saves everyone?
Nope.
So there is a limit to God's mercy... Is there anyone else other than those you mentioned that deserves the mercy you spoke of?
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 9/3/2008 2:10:40 AM >
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/3/2008 2:10:19 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Who said I was limiting His mercy to those select few?
Not to put words into SovereignIsHe's mouth, but I'm pretty sure his point was that by suggesting that some people are able to receive God's grace without placing their faith in Him, the door is possibly opened for others to say that God's mercy is available for all without putting faith in Him.
That and the the fact that when we get down to the bottom line so to speak what will be the determining factor isn't really God's grace, but the supposed condition of the person, in this case, innocent and or said to be unable to respond in a manner that plays to the vanity of man... I will never understand the view the says someone who can't read, or is mentally handicapped cannot express their faith... As if the criteria is bound simply to the means and methods of understanding that we declare to be normal or what WE can understand... Such is vanity... It's a spiritual awaking, not a intellectual one... Paul was clear that man at a height of understanding(natural man) is no more unable to understand things of the spirit as the most mentally handicapped person or a baby/infant...Bottom line... Age doesn't determine the need for God's grace since all of mankind is in the same boat and equally in need of His grace, unmerited favor... It's not the man that runs or will, but... God and His sovereign choice to show mercy, or not... That it the key to salvation, not intellect, not age, nor an attempt to make on worthy of God's favor, since that cannot happen... The fact that Christ blood alone is the only worthy sacrifice says everyone who is saved has something to be covered... No free passes... Blessed are those whose sins are covered...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/3/2008 11:10:03 AM
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Him4all
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SovereignIsHe,
Post 161quote:
So you totally believe that God saves everyone?
I know you didn't address this to me but I will say, almost...totally. And it took years to become an 'almoster'. And it was questions like this thread poses, which nudged me down that path which is obviously traveled by few.
MrFribbles,
#162quote:
Not to put words into SovereignIsHe's mouth, but I'm pretty sure his point was that by suggesting that some people are able to receive God's grace without placing their faith in Him, the door is possibly opened for others to say that God's mercy is available for all without putting faith in Him.
Personally I don't believe it does happen "without putting faith in Him."
I have an interesting quote from Martin Luther along these lines though? "God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future." 'The Afterlife' by Henry Buckle pg 168. Heresy some might say. But then Martin was called a heretic for other reasons in his day also.
SoverignIsHe,
#165quote:
It's not the man that runs or will, but... God and His sovereign choice to show mercy, or not...
Isn't it also up to God as to when He shows that mercy?
quote:
No free passes... Blessed are those whose sins are covered...
In reading your above thought a versed came to mind. So, when scripture says "All have sinned", is that the defining verse as to whether we also put infants ect., into that catagory? Or is that taking liberty with the verse?
DR
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/3/2008 4:15:12 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
To remove babies/infants from mankind in regards to the condemnation that is due man only to later to insert them back into mankind in regards to the mercy that God bestows mankind doesn't add up in my opinion.
That same thought has been tumbling in my head lately. How can we, as Christians, advocate the view that human life begins at conception, but then deny the full humanity of that life? Because last time I checked, sinfulness is part of human life until one receives Christ. I see nothing in Scripture to suggest that sin enters into us at a certain point.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/4/2008 8:13:46 AM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
That same thought has been tumbling in my head lately. How can we, as Christians, advocate the view that human life begins at conception, but then deny the full humanity of that life? Because last time I checked, sinfulness is part of human life until one receives Christ. I see nothing in Scripture to suggest that sin enters into us at a certain point. I'm with on seeing nothing in Scripture to suggest that sin enters into us at a certain point. But don't you think that there's a certain point in the life of every individual before which he/she has actually committed no sin? Or are you suggesting that babies and infants are condemned to hell for Adam's sin?
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/4/2008 9:20:26 AM
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drmark
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quote:
But don't you think that there's a certain point in the life of every individual before which he/she has actually committed no sin? Exactly, gd46! There is no committed sin until a person knows they have willfully and intentionally disobeyed a known law of God. At that point they are accountable for their personal disobedience.
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[Deleted] - 9/4/2008 9:32:49 AM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/4/2008 10:49:46 AM
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MrFribbles
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greatdivide,
quote:
But don't you think that there's a certain point in the life of every individual before which he/she has actually committed no sin? Or are you suggesting that babies and infants are condemned to hell for Adam's sin?
That is what I'm suggesting, yes. If it were not so, then babies would never die during birth. If someone is without sin, then their mortal body wouldn't pass away - it is only the corrupting influence of sin which brings about death.
drmark,
quote:
There is no committed sin until a person knows they have willfully and intentionally disobeyed a known law of God. At that point they are accountable for their personal disobedience.
Then why do we evangelize? We'd be doing the world a favor if we didn't tell them about God. If they don't know about God and His law, then they wouldn't be held accountable for it, right? Why give them a chance to reject salvation?
emerging,
First off, welcome to the boards! : )
quote:
As Paul says in Romans, if in one man (Adam) all have sinned how much more than is all mankind saved through the second adam, Christ? We are saved because of the finished work of Christ on the cross and his defeat of sin and death. Period. To say that babies or the mentally handicapped are not saved is to make one's salvation dependent upon us, not God. Thank God it is not up to us.
Now, I may be misunderstanding you, but are you suggesting that all people are saved?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/4/2008 10:51:25 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
I'm with on seeing nothing in Scripture to suggest that sin enters into us at a certain point. But don't you think that there's a certain point in the life of every individual before which he/she has actually committed no sin? Or are you suggesting that babies and infants are condemned to hell for Adam's sin? quote:
There is no committed sin until a person knows they have willfully and intentionally disobeyed a known law of God. At that point they are accountable for their personal disobedience. quote:
I am new here and haven't read this entire thread. Are babies or infants embraced by God should they die prematurely? Yes. In the same way we can speak with confidence that those who are mentally handicapped and unable to express the name of Christ in this temporal state. Back and forth, on and on.....
Why must we argue so vehemently on one side or the other on something the bible is silent on?
There is no scriptural guarentee of infant salvation. There is also the scriptural concept of God's great mercy and justice.
We just do not know.
AND IT IS OK TO NOT KNOW!!!!!
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[Deleted] - 9/4/2008 11:03:03 AM
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). It is also obvious that after "getting saved" Christians still sin, so initial salvation isn't all there is either IMO.