RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 8/28/2008 10:36:38 PM
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JamesL5
Posts: 97
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Peter,
You mentioned (1 Corinthians 7:14), but this verse is about marriage, not salvation. Please read this explanation from Pastor Brett Baker. This information is from the Trinity Church website:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Trinity Church
1 Corinthians 7:10-16
Through Paul, God brought many Corinthians into His kingdom. Their lives were changed and they began to live new lives. But still, many of them were married to spouses who did not believe and there arose a concern over whether the Christians should continue in that relationship. Paul's answer is clearly yes. If the Christian has a spouse that is willing to live with them, they should not instigate a divorce simply because the spouse is not a believer. In addition, the Christians were to continue with the proper sexual relationship with their spouses even though the spouse may be an unbeliever. Because of the Christian in the marriage covenant, God sees the entire family as holy (although not necessarily saved) and there is no defilement when the Christian spouse is rendering themselves unto their non Christian spouse. If the unbeliever does not want to continue the marriage, the Christian spouse is not to be contentious. The proper response for the deserted spouse would be prayer not fighting. This is why Paul states that we are called to live in peace not in turmoil. But note, nowhere in here is there a permission to divorce.
< Message edited by JamesL5 -- 8/29/2008 6:49:56 AM >
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 8/29/2008 8:46:40 AM
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drmark
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quote:
You didn't address the difficulty I pointed out concerning verse 16. How does that fit your interpretation. For me it gives your POV an inconsistency based upon what I said earlier:
quote:
quote:
"Verse 16 doesn't say "the last get in and the first don't." It says they all get in IMO. Just some with greater 'honor' for 'longer' work done. I guess I do not see any difficulty to address, Him4all! The only "all that get in" are the ones called by the owner to work and who are paid by the foreman. Not everybody in town works or is paid (appropriates grace and receives eternal life). There is no "greater honor" - everyone who worked received one denarius regardless of their performance. Grace is grace and God may extend it to unaccountable infants or deathbed converters!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 8/29/2008 10:23:55 AM
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Qtman
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My brothers and sisters in Christ. I had a post written last night in this thread that didn't make it. No it was not a Mod I did not hit the submit button because I felt it was inappropriate and a maybe a violation of TOS. Instead I made it a blog post . I ask all of you to read it. I know I have the advantage of you not being able to respond since its a blog. Please feel free to contact me by PM or e-mail if you want to discuss the blog post, if you dieagree with the blog post, if you just like the blog post or even if you just want to tell me you don't care what I have to say. My e-mail address is public and listed on my profile page.
May God Bless each of you.
Sam
_____________________________
STRESS = The internal struggle created when the brain trys to over ride the heart's desire to tell off some jerk that really deserves to be told off.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 8/29/2008 11:42:52 AM
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drmark
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quote:
The difficulty with this POV, is that it is scripturally indefensible. Please provide chapter and verse that babies are spiritually, morally, and/or intellectually capable of rejecting Christ. When you are unable to, then I will accept your retraction without prejudice.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 8/30/2008 1:24:55 PM
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Him4all
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From: Kansas
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Frankman,
We merely have different interpretations concerning Psalms 51. I 'assume' you are basing your POV upon verse 5, along with, your interpretation of the word "sinful" and Your NIV's failure to distinguish the difference between sinful/iniquity and sin in verse 5 (Read more translations). I am basing my interpretation upon the context of verses 1-5. In doing that, I have to deal with the definition of iniquities, transgressions and sins. Some see those three as the same thing...I do not. I've even had a discussion with a, soon to graduate, seminary student here who considered me uneducated and himself, 'quite the opposite' concerning this very point. In his seminary spirit he told me that this (iniquity, transgression, sin) is what's known 'among the learned' as a "heaping of terms". To which I resonded with the fact that I live in cattle country and with my 'wilderness degree' I understood 'heaping' as well as 'the definition of those terms', quite differently than 'the learned'.
Let me try to break down, by example, the depth of what I'm trying to share. I could be born as a 'fetal alcoholic' or 'crackhead baby' (inherited iniquity) never having commited the sin of 'drinking in excess' or 'drug use'. I hope you can see/agree with that.
To be born 'sinful' carries two interpretations. One: means you've committed a lot of sins. Two: means you're born with the predisposition to sin even though you haven't (like the babies). Or, as I said before "You are born with...the nature to sin". Which is a condition that basically makes me 'a sinner' looking for a place to manifest externally (commit sin) that which I'm tempted to do internally (transgression). You may not understand or agree with that POV, but I give it in the hope that you'll at least know where I'm coming from. 
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 8/30/2008 4:03:19 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Please provide chapter and verse that babies are spiritually, morally, and/or intellectually capable of rejecting Christ.
Is there any Scripture that says a person must have the oppertunity to reject Christ?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 8/30/2008 10:48:46 PM
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drmark
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Certainly not, which is one reason I believe unaccountable children and the irresponsible do not have that opportunity.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 8/31/2008 11:44:24 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Certainly not, which is one reason I believe unaccountable children and the irresponsible do not have that opportunity.
I must admit, I'm a tad bit fuzzy here, drmark. You say there is certainly not any Scripture that says a person must have the opportunity to reject Christ. Perhaps I was asking the question in the wrong way. What I'm getting at is - is there any Scripture that says a person must have that opportunity in order to be condemned? Is there a passage which speaks of the salvation of those without a chance?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 8/31/2008 4:43:06 PM
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drmark
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I thought everybody had a chance, MrF! For what it's worth, I believe in unlimited Atonement - how 'bout you?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 8/31/2008 4:50:08 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I thought everybody had a chance, MrF!
I haven't seen that in Scripture. If you have, I'd be interested in learning where! : )
quote:
For what it's worth, I believe in unlimited Atonement - how 'bout you?
I tend to, yes. I don't see anywhere in Scripture that says Christ died only for some. However, I don't believe unlimited atonement equals personal atonement without personal faith.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 8/31/2008 5:02:07 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I haven't seen that in Scripture. If you have, I'd be interested in learning where!
quote:
I don't see anywhere in Scripture that says Christ died only for some. Correct, so you've already learned that Scripture teaches unlimited Atonement. What else do you need my help with?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 8/31/2008 5:03:09 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Correct, so you've already learned that Scripture teaches unlimited Atonement. What else do you need my help with?
Where in Scripture it says everyone has an opportunity to accept or reject that atonement.
Or, related to that, where it says that if someone isn't offered that choice, they automatically receive a saving grace.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 8/31/2008 10:48:40 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Where in Scripture it says everyone has an opportunity to accept or reject that atonement. No one can "reject" the Atonement - it's an incontrovertible fact of history! Perhaps you meant "reject grace"? Even then I see a fine but important distinction in saying "one fails to appropriate grace" rather than "one rejects God's grace or rejects His forgiveness".
quote:
Or, related to that, where it says that if someone isn't offered that choice, they automatically receive a saving grace. I'm sorry, I must have missed it. Where does it say in Scripture that some are not "offered that choice"? Isn't all grace "automatic"?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/1/2008 3:29:21 AM
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OneOfHisJewels
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I haven't read through the whole thread.
My denomination's stand on this, is that the children of believers are Covenant children, and therefore will go to heaven, and as far as the children of unbelievers, we just don't know. I, personally, think God is a merciful God, and would take all babies to heaven.
I don't really want to debate about it, I'm just telling the original poster my personal belief.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/1/2008 10:10:25 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Perhaps you meant "reject grace"? Even then I see a fine but important distinction in saying "one fails to appropriate grace" rather than "one rejects God's grace or rejects His forgiveness".
Well, then how does a child, or other unaccountable, appropriate grace?
quote:
I'm sorry, I must have missed it.
No need to apologize. 1, these threads tend to get a bit convoluted sometimes anyhow, and 2, I probably didn't phrase it clearly.
quote:
Where does it say in Scripture that some are not "offered that choice"?
Romans 10:14-15 comes to mind. If everyone is offered that choice, then why does Paul put such an emphasis on going out with the gospel?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/1/2008 10:34:53 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Well, then how does a child, or other unaccountable, appropriate grace? I do not know how God's grace works - do you? I only know that His grace is efficacious for those who are physically and/or mentally unable to appropriate it. I certainly know how I appropriated grace - THROUGH FAITH! But then, I am not an infant or irresponsible. Is an infant capable of saving faith?
quote:
Romans 10:14-15 comes to mind. If everyone is offered that choice, then why does Paul put such an emphasis on going out with the gospel? I do not see how "going out with the Gospel" has anything to do with infants and the irresponsible. Verse 13 is quite clear - "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." The passage appears to be relevant only for those capable of choosing the Lord, right?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/1/2008 1:07:19 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I only know that His grace is efficacious for those who are physically and/or mentally unable to appropriate it.
Wonderful! This is exactly what I've been trying to get at. How do you know this?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/1/2008 3:53:21 PM
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Him4all
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Isn't all grace "automatic"?
Not according to scripture.
PRO 3:34 He mocks proud mockers but gives grace to the humble.
JAM 4:6... "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble." 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God...
What's the "therefore" there for? To tell you HOW to appropriate grace. By humbling yourself!
1PE 5:5 Clothe yourselves, all of you, with humility toward one another, for "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble."
quote:
I certainly know how I appropriated grace - THROUGH FAITH!
I don't think Faith "appropriates grace" it activates it. Humbleness appropriates it.
Maybe the answer is...are babies, children and the mentally challenged, inherently, humble in the sight of God? I don't know...But God knows. 
DR
< Message edited by Him4all -- 9/1/2008 4:51:28 PM >
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/1/2008 10:25:54 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Wonderful! This is exactly what I've been trying to get at. How do you know this? I assume, MrF, in the same way that you know "dead babies go to Hell".
quote:
I don't think Faith "appropriates grace" it activates it. Humbleness appropriates it. Interesting concept, Him4all. I will need to chew on it for a while. Thanks.
quote:
Maybe the answer is...are babies, children and the mentally challenged, inherently, humble in the sight of God? I don't know...But God knows. I respectfully agree, Him4all. I think this is the point I was making in my post #27:
quote:
However, many commentators point out that Matt 19:14 uses the prepositional phrase "of such" (Greek twn toioutwn) to suggest it is the nature or character of a child (childlike humility as seen in Matt 18:4) that will be reflected in Heaven, not just the fact that such a one is prepubertal. Could the age of accountability then be the age at which a child loses their humble character?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/2/2008 12:10:41 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
I assume, MrF, in the same way that you know "dead babies go to Hell".
I have Scriptural support for my view (which I would share, but I have a Greek Syntax class in 9 hours, so I need sleeps). Do you?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/2/2008 2:30:36 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
It might, but if that were the case, then this verse would teach, or at least support, universal salvation - something I am entirely uncomfortable with. I don't get it. How does God's grace allowing for young children and the mentally unaccountable to be saved have anything to do with universal salvation? The Parable of the Workers in Matt 20:1-16 clearly indicates that the duration of our saving faith is irrelevant to the reward of eternal life. Some of you are beginning to sound like the early workers who grumbled about full pay for the latecomers. Is your salvation "better" because you had the choice to reject it? Did the owner of the vineyard have his foreman pay all who did not agree to work? That would have been universal salvation!
Actually automatic salvation for babies/infants is really nothing less than predestination...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/2/2008 10:34:05 AM
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Him4all
Posts: 479
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
DR I don't think Faith "appropriates grace" it activates it. Humbleness appropriates it. Interesting concept, Him4all. I will need to chew on it for a while. Thanks.
I hope it's enjoyable chewing. sometimes it just seems like we are never going to 'plumb the depths'. So, if the 'chewing' is too tough...I'm fresh out of tenderizer. 
quote:
DR Maybe the answer is...are babies, children and the mentally challenged, inherently, humble in the sight of God? I don't know...But God knows. quote:
drmark I respectfully agree, Him4all. I think this is the point I was making in my post #27:
quote:
drmark However, many commentators point out that Matt 19:14 uses the prepositional phrase "of such" (Greek twn toioutwn) to suggest it is the nature or character of a child (childlike humility as seen in Matt 18:4) that will be reflected in Heaven, not just the fact that such a one is prepubertal. Could the age of accountability then be the age at which a child loses their humble character?
I wasn't 'onboard' that early in the thread. So the conclusion that I'm just now coming to, may have come to sooner, had I not missed the opportunity to 'chew on it' earlier. 
DR
_____________________________
When you violate LOVE you violate GOD.
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That`s why babies die. That`s why we will all die someday too. So the reason why infants are saved if they die before they reach the age of accountability is only because God credits their sin to Christ; and because they are too young to believe, the requirement of personal faith is waived.