RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/29/2008 12:27:30 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
May your kingdom come and your will be done."
This was taken way, way out of context of that thought.
quote:
What God has decreed will happen at the time and place He decreed... The fact it's hasn't happened yet is really pointless since it will happen and man cannot stop it..
This is from a mind who is not thinking quite clearly in this world.
Everytime a person shows love and compassion. Then God's will is happening here on this planet. When someone comes to the knowledege of God and trust him fully then his will has happen here as it is in heaven.
Has nothing to do with a future type of way of living as far as the Lord Jesus Christ returning and making everone change their way of thinking.
Though that will happen in the future. It is not just for future but even for today.
Huh?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/29/2008 12:29:10 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
ou really cannot take it when God's Word contradicts your "personal version"! The Scripture means what it says, John, and if God does not do (decree all to be saved) what He wills (wants everyone to come to repentance) then your "personal version" of theology is down the drain.
You paraphrased the verse to fit your view...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/29/2008 12:32:48 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1066
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
May your kingdom come and your will be done."
This was taken way, way out of context of that thought.
quote:
What God has decreed will happen at the time and place He decreed... The fact it's hasn't happened yet is really pointless since it will happen and man cannot stop it..
This is from a mind who is not thinking quite clearly in this world.
Everytime a person shows love and compassion. Then God's will is happening here on this planet. When someone comes to the knowledege of God and trust him fully then his will has happen here as it is in heaven.
Has nothing to do with a future type of way of living as far as the Lord Jesus Christ returning and making everone change their way of thinking.
Though that will happen in the future. It is not just for future but even for today.
Huh?
Now you know how I think when you have posted some of your statements. 
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/29/2008 4:35:44 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
if God does not do (decree all to be saved) what He wills (wants everyone to come to repentance) then your "personal version" of theology is down the drain.
You're assuming God's will is a static phrase - that it means the exact same thing everywhere in Scripture. I would disagree with that, just as I would disagree with someone who would say that God's love is the exact same everywhere it is used in Scripture.
Just because God wants something to happen doesn't make it part of His planned will - that which He has declared will happen, and will make happen. I'm sure God wanted Adam and Eve to not sin, but it wasn't part of His greater planned will.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/29/2008 5:02:49 PM
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drmark
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quote:
You're assuming God's will is a static phrase - that it means the exact same thing everywhere in Scripture. I would disagree with that, just as I would disagree with someone who would say that God's love is the exact same everywhere it is used in Scripture. I see, so God's immutable sovereignty is "static" but not God's Will or Love. It never ceases to amaze me how you all are totally oblivious to your preconceived interpretations of Scripture!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/29/2008 5:26:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
You're assuming God's will is a static phrase - that it means the exact same thing everywhere in Scripture. I would disagree with that, just as I would disagree with someone who would say that God's love is the exact same everywhere it is used in Scripture. I see, so God's immutable sovereignty is "static" but not God's Will or Love. It never ceases to amaze me how you all are totally oblivious to your preconceived interpretations of Scripture!
As if you are not yourself...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/29/2008 5:31:10 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1632
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quote:
It never ceases to amaze me how you all are totally oblivious to your preconceived interpretations of Scripture!
As House, erm, John pointed out, we all come to Scripture with a preconceived interpretation. Nobody approaches it in pure objectivity.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/30/2008 11:39:58 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
It never ceases to amaze me how you all are totally oblivious to your preconceived interpretations of Scripture!
As House, erm, John pointed out, we all come to Scripture with a preconceived interpretation. Nobody approaches it in pure objectivity.
So you are saying Mr Fribbles you have preconceived ideas? I take your last statement you don't try to understand what compassion means to a God or mercy.
I find it hard to see it even in so-called christian circles.
People do a great talk yet miss the big picture of what Our Lord Jesus Christ, Our Heavenly Father and Holy Spirit have in common.
Why would Paul start out his letters to the churchs like this; "Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ". Not just once, but all the time. Was he trying to bring across a point that the God head is about grace and peace. Not smack you up side your head when you fail. So with this in mind I can not picture a creator of life sending someone to doom because they didn't have a chance to have known better.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/30/2008 11:44:36 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1632
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quote:
So you are saying Mr Fribbles you have preconceived ideas?
I absolutely am. I would say that anyone and everyone has preconceived ideas.
quote:
I take your last statement you don't try to understand what compassion means to a God or mercy.
I find it hard to see it even in so-called christian circles.
I find God's compassion immense and powerful. The very fact that He died for me despite me being His enemy is incredibly compassionate.
quote:
So with this in mind I can not picture a creator of life sending someone to doom because they didn't have a chance to have known better.
Does God punish ignorance, or does He punish sin?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/30/2008 11:53:51 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
Does God punish ignorance, or does He punish sin?
Well to answer that he punishs sin. But again to just to add to that picture. It is the sin of disbelief in him. Right?
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/30/2008 12:04:59 PM
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Qtman
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I'm back for a post. God punishes sin. Now show me where a infant has sinned. Don't give me the tired old cliche that we are borned into sin because that is not what the Bible teaches. Show me where a baby has the ability in and of itself to sin.
_____________________________
Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
Body Piercings
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/30/2008 12:25:38 PM
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raivyne
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I think as to this debate I will say I have mixed feelings. On one hand infants are innocent, on the other they haven't had the opportunity to accept Christ. Perhaps parents are sort of "stand-ins" or umbrellas of sort here...? As Christians it is our job to bring people to Christ so that they may be saved. It would be a failure on our part if someone who was not an infant died never knowing/hearing about Christ.
Really interesting topic! I have to say I'm undecided at this point.
_____________________________
God grades on the cross – not on a curve
Good – God = 0
In the dark? Follow the Son!
The Power of a Simple Gift! samaritanspurse.org
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/30/2008 1:47:21 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1632
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Qtman,
quote:
Don't give me the tired old cliche that we are borned into sin because that is not what the Bible teaches.
Do you believe we are born inherently good?
quote:
Show me where a baby has the ability in and of itself to sin.
I asked, and have been asking, for anywhere in Scripture that says babies get to go to heaven first.
mcleod,
quote:
Well to answer that he punishs sin. But again to just to add to that picture. It is the sin of disbelief in him. Right?
If you believe that, it's self-defeating for your view. Babies don't believe in Him.
Personally, I don't think unbelief is a sin. Rejection, yes, but not unbelief.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/30/2008 2:06:21 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 10086
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
Qtman,
quote:
Don't give me the tired old cliche that we are borned into sin because that is not what the Bible teaches.
Do you believe we are born inherently good?
quote:
Show me where a baby has the ability in and of itself to sin.
I asked, and have been asking, for anywhere in Scripture that says babies get to go to heaven first.
mcleod,
quote:
Well to answer that he punishs sin. But again to just to add to that picture. It is the sin of disbelief in him. Right?
If you believe that, it's self-defeating for your view. Babies don't believe in Him.
Personally, I don't think unbelief is a sin. Rejection, yes, but not unbelief.
As a matter of fact MrFribbles I do. I believe we are a creation of God. I believe He places a soul in our bodies and I do not believe He puts a sinful soul in those bodies. The sinful behavior we as adults have is a learned behavior. The infants have not learned it yet. I believe babies are a re-enactment of the fall of man. Born perfect and then falls into sin.
And before the question comes up again Yes I believe I and everyone else would have been better of as far as eternity is concerned to have died in infancy.
Everyone is quick to ask for scripture saying babies go to Heaven but no one is equally as quick to provide scripture that says they don't. Why? Because neither one can. It's all about studing and reaching an understanding and conclusion.
I have said before I believe babies go to Heaven. Note the keyword is Believe. If some don't believe that then let them say they don't believe it because none of us have the knowledge, power of authority to give a definitive answer. Only our beliefs.
_____________________________
Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
Body Piercings
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/30/2008 2:09:43 PM
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raivyne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
because none of us have the knowledge, power of authority to give a definitive answer. Only our beliefs.
Amen!
_____________________________
God grades on the cross – not on a curve
Good – God = 0
In the dark? Follow the Son!
The Power of a Simple Gift! samaritanspurse.org
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/30/2008 3:07:56 PM
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greatdivide46
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What I don't understand though, is: If God condemns people to hell as a punishment for sin, then how can babies be condemned since they have not yet sinned. Unless, of course, God condemns them simply because they are born with a sinful nature as the result of someone else's sin. (Which, by the way, seems highly unlikely to me.) 
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/30/2008 3:52:52 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1632
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Everyone is quick to ask for scripture saying babies go to Heaven but no one is equally as quick to provide scripture that says they don't. Why? Because neither one can. It's all about studing and reaching an understanding and conclusion.
That is probably the most thoughtful comment I've seen in this thread. Bravo. : )
Clearly we disagree, but you're one of the few people I've seen on here who does agree with me about the fact that, ultimately, we won't know until we reach heaven. And, to play the broken record again, I sincerely hope you're right on all counts here.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/30/2008 4:20:12 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 10086
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
quote:
Everyone is quick to ask for scripture saying babies go to Heaven but no one is equally as quick to provide scripture that says they don't. Why? Because neither one can. It's all about studing and reaching an understanding and conclusion.
That is probably the most thoughtful comment I've seen in this thread. Bravo. : )
Clearly we disagree, but you're one of the few people I've seen on here who does agree with me about the fact that, ultimately, we won't know until we reach heaven. And, to play the broken record again, I sincerely hope you're right on all counts here.
So do I my friend, So do I.
_____________________________
Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
Body Piercings
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/30/2008 7:35:50 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
I'm back for a post. God punishes sin. Now show me where a infant has sinned. Don't give me the tired old cliche that we are borned into sin because that is not what the Bible teaches. Show me where a baby has the ability in and of itself to sin.
I can show you where infants were treated like adults regarding punishment.... The flood and Jericho... No exception were made for infants though a harlot that helped Joshua was...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/30/2008 7:48:44 PM
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Qtman
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You keep pointing that out John but it does not answer my question. You simply can't answer my question because it is not in the Bible. The verses you seem to love to quote about Jerico and the floods has to do with everyone dying. It says absolutely nothing about where they all spend eternity.
_____________________________
Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
Body Piercings
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/30/2008 7:54:04 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
As a matter of fact MrFribbles I do. I believe we are a creation of God. I believe He places a soul in our bodies and I do not believe He puts a sinful soul in those bodies. The sinful behavior we as adults have is a learned behavior. The infants have not learned it yet. I believe babies are a re-enactment of the fall of man. Born perfect and then falls into sin.
Babies are not liken to Adam and not in the Garden.... There is no scripture that speaks of babies being born prefect, or even close... In order to claim they are perfect you must remove them from mankind and later insert them back in regards to God's grace...
quote:
And before the question comes up again Yes I believe I and everyone else would have been better of as far as eternity is concerned to have died in infancy.
If that's truly the case one should rejoice when a child dies if one believes they are automatically saved... Abortion clinics are not murdering 3500 unborn children daily they are saving them from possible eternal damnation... Are the collective churches of the nation saving that many people daily? I doubt it given the rate of those who come forward only to turn away after the initial excitement wares off..
quote:
Everyone is quick to ask for scripture saying babies go to Heaven but no one is equally as quick to provide scripture that says they don't. Why? Because neither one can. It's all about studing and reaching an understanding and conclusion.
People are asked for scripture since for the most part they toss out their normal view of salvation and insert something else for babies... That is the bases for asking for scripture...
quote:
I have said before I believe babies go to Heaven. Note the keyword is Believe. If some don't believe that then let them say they don't believe it because none of us have the knowledge, power of authority to give a definitive answer. Only our beliefs.
I have always maintained it's in God's hands, as is the salvation of anyone regardless of age... It is those who say man must choose God in order to be saved that have to about face and change their tune for infants... All of sudden God doing it all it perfectly ok and righteous... He can finish what He started with a child, not others...
Blessed are those who sins are covered... No verse that says, blessed are those without sin... Only one was was perfect and He was fully God as well as fully man...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/30/2008 7:59:39 PM
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Qtman
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Whatever John. I don't know if you believe babies go to heaven or not and frankly I don't care. You believe what you want. All I said was I do believe it. So don't give a yes or no answer to something you don't know anything about. I'm out of here again. Really don't know why I came back in the first place.
_____________________________
Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
Body Piercings
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/30/2008 8:00:47 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
You keep pointing that out John but it does not answer my question. You simply can't answer my question because it is not in the Bible. The verses you seem to love to quote about Jerico and the floods has to do with everyone dying. It says absolutely nothing about where they all spend eternity.
Love to quote them? I guess that's better than ignoring them.... I believe they are part of the equation...
Sorry, but it's too simple to suggest they are simply about people dying... The flood was a judgment not simply about dying people, same as Jericho....
And for anyone to say the judgment of God(which the flood and Jericho were) has absolutely nothing about where they all spend eternity is ignoring what happened... If one doesn't believe those outside the ark weren't judged what's the point of Noah being in there? What's the point of Joshua not slaying the Rahab if it's just about dying? Your view of those two situation leaves too many holes...
Reconcile that fact that adults and the very young and old were treated all the same and that the exceptions in both cases had nothing to do with age...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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