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Jesus says in John 9:41 to those who were offended at his teaching and asked if he thought they were blind-he said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains." In other words, if a person lacks the natural capacity to see the revelation of God's will or God's glory then that person's sin would not remain - God would not bring the person into final judgment for not believing what he had no natural capacity to see. The other text is Romans 1:20 where Paul is dealing with persons who have not heard the gospel and have no access to it, but who do have access to the revelation of God's glory in nature:

Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

In other words: if a person did not have access to the revelation of God's glory - did not have the natural capacity to see it and understand it, then Paul implies they would have an excuse at the judgment. The point for us is that even though we human beings are under the penalty of everlasting judgment and death because of the fall of our race into sin and the sinful nature that we all have, nevertheless God only executes this judgment on those who have the natural capacity to see his glory and understand his will, and refuse to embrace it as their treasure. Infants, I believe, do not yet have that capacity; and therefore, in God's inscrutable way, he brings them under the forgiving blood of his Son. God in his justice will find a way to absolve infants who die of their depravity. It will surely be through Christ. But beyond that we would be guessing. It seems to me that the most natural guess would be that babies will grow up in the kingdom (either immediately, or over time) and will by God's grace come to faith so that their justification is by faith alone just like ours.

It is important to emphasize that God is not saving infants because they are innocent. They are not innocent, but guilty. He is saving them because, although they are sinful, in his mercy he desires that compassion be exercised upon those who are sinful and yet lack the capacity to grasp the truth revealed about Him in nature and to the human heart... childish innocence. It should also be emphasized that the salvation of all who die in infancy is not inconsistent with unconditional election (the view that God chooses whom to save of His own will, apart from anything in the individual).

Also consider the following points:

1. The Lord Jesus Christ died for all of Adam's race (for all mankind), including every infant that has ever been born.

2. A person is condemned for rejecting Jesus Christ and for refusing to believe in Him: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." (John 3:18). An infant is not capable of rejecting Jesus Christ. An infant is incapable of committing the sin mentioned in John 16:9.

3. Those who go to hell in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 are those who have deliberately disobeyed the gospel by refusing to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Infants have not willfully disobeyed the gospel. Note: The heathen, who are not under the hearing of the gospel, are condemned for rejecting the lesser revelation that God has given to them (Rom. 1:20-21, etc.). But an infant would also be incapable of rejecting this lesser revelation.

4. Revelation 20:11-15 indicates that all of the unsaved are resurrected to appear before the Great White Throne, and twice it is stressed that each will be judged according to their works. It is doubtful that young infants are included in this evaluation. What evil works has a 6 month old baby committed?

5. Consider the compassionate heart of God for those who are lost: "who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4--this is God's desire). "...not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Pet. 3:9). "In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost" (Matt. 18:14). "...I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked..." (Ezekiel 33:11). While these verses do not refer specifically to infants, they do teach us that the loving and merciful heart of our God desires the salvation of all men.

6. We know that the Lord Jesus had a tender and compassionate heart for the little children and was much displeased when His disciples were hindering them from coming to Him (Mark 10:13-14). We are sure that our Saviour has this same kind of compassion, not only for children, but for young infants also.

7. King David had a child by Bathsheba which died in infancy. David's words are significant: "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." (2 Samuel 12:22-23). The clear sense of this passage is that David believed that he would be reunited with his child in the next life. He knew the baby, having died, could not come back to this life, but he believed that he would go to him. While we can't be dogmatic that such a passage teaches infant salvation, yet it does seem to point in that direction.

The Reverend Charles H. Spurgeon nails this on the head in a sermon from 1861, entitled "Infant Salvation". As Spurgeon pointed out, it is not that God chooses someone to salvation because they are going to die in infancy. Rather, He has ordained that only those who have been chosen for salvation will be allowed to die in infancy. God's justice in condemnation will be most clearly seen by allowing those who will not be saved to demonstrate their inherent sinfulness through willful, knowing transgression. (John 3:18 says ".......whoever does not believe......". The verb is perfect active indicative. An infant has not actively expressed unbelief. Note too, however, that mankind is totally depraved, lost because of Adam’s sin, not because of man’s rejection of biblical truth (Cf. Rom. 3:10; 3:23; 5:12; 6:23) ).

Through the ages, this question of infant salvation has been emotionally debated. The persistence of this debate has been aided by the fact that the writers of Scripture did not explicitly comment on this subject. Having reviewed many pertinent avenues of reason, we can safely say that the salvation of infants can be regarded as at least an uncontradicted hope. It is my conviction, however, that although infant salvation is not taught explicitly, based upon the justice and character of God, infant salvation is an implicit certainty.

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Maybe it's time to put this to rest!

Jesus says in John 9:41 to those who were offended at his teaching and asked if he thought they were blind-he said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains." In other words, if a person lacks the natural capacity to see the revelation of God's will or God's glory then that person's sin would not remain - God would not bring the person into final judgment for not believing what he had no natural capacity to see. The other text is Romans 1:20 where Paul is dealing with persons who have not heard the gospel and have no access to it, but who do have access to the revelation of God's glory in nature:

Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

In other words: if a person did not have access to the revelation of God's glory - did not have the natural capacity to see it and understand it, then Paul implies they would have an excuse at the judgment. The point for us is that even though we human beings are under the penalty of everlasting judgment and death because of the fall of our race into sin and the sinful nature that we all have, nevertheless God only executes this judgment on those who have the natural capacity to see his glory and understand his will, and refuse to embrace it as their treasure. Infants, I believe, do not yet have that capacity; and therefore, in God's inscrutable way, he brings them under the forgiving blood of his Son. God in his justice will find a way to absolve infants who die of their depravity. It will surely be through Christ. But beyond that we would be guessing. It seems to me that the most natural guess would be that babies will grow up in the kingdom (either immediately, or over time) and will by God's grace come to faith so that their justification is by faith alone just like ours.

It is important to emphasize that God is not saving infants because they are innocent. They are not innocent, but guilty. He is saving them because, although they are sinful, in his mercy he desires that compassion be exercised upon those who are sinful and yet lack the capacity to grasp the truth revealed about Him in nature and to the human heart... childish innocence. It should also be emphasized that the salvation of all who die in infancy is not inconsistent with unconditional election (the view that God chooses whom to save of His own will, apart from anything in the individual).

Also consider the following points:

1. The Lord Jesus Christ died for all of Adam's race (for all mankind), including every infant that has ever been born.

2. A person is condemned for rejecting Jesus Christ and for refusing to believe in Him: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." (John 3:18). An infant is not capable of rejecting Jesus Christ. An infant is incapable of committing the sin mentioned in John 16:9.

3. Those who go to hell in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 are those who have deliberately disobeyed the gospel by refusing to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Infants have not willfully disobeyed the gospel. Note: The heathen, who are not under the hearing of the gospel, are condemned for rejecting the lesser revelation that God has given to them (Rom. 1:20-21, etc.). But an infant would also be incapable of rejecting this lesser revelation.

4. Revelation 20:11-15 indicates that all of the unsaved are resurrected to appear before the Great White Throne, and twice it is stressed that each will be judged according to their works. It is doubtful that young infants are included in this evaluation. What evil works has a 6 month old baby committed?

5. Consider the compassionate heart of God for those who are lost: "who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4--this is God's desire). "...not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Pet. 3:9). "In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost" (Matt. 18:14). "...I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked..." (Ezekiel 33:11). While these verses do not refer specifically to infants, they do teach us that the loving and merciful heart of our God desires the salvation of all men.

6. We know that the Lord Jesus had a tender and compassionate heart for the little children and was much displeased when His disciples were hindering them from coming to Him (Mark 10:13-14). We are sure that our Saviour has this same kind of compassion, not only for children, but for young infants also.

7. King David had a child by Bathsheba which died in infancy. David's words are significant: "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." (2 Samuel 12:22-23). The clear sense of this passage is that David believed that he would be reunited with his child in the next life. He knew the baby, having died, could not come back to this life, but he believed that he would go to him. While we can't be dogmatic that such a passage teaches infant salvation, yet it does seem to point in that direction.

The Reverend Charles H. Spurgeon nails this on the head in a sermon from 1861, entitled "Infant Salvation". As Spurgeon pointed out, it is not that God chooses someone to salvation because they are going to die in infancy. Rather, He has ordained that only those who have been chosen for salvation will be allowed to die in infancy. God's justice in condemnation will be most clearly seen by allowing those who will not be saved to demonstrate their inherent sinfulness through willful, knowing transgression. (John 3:18 says ".......whoever does not believe......". The verb is perfect active indicative. An infant has not actively expressed unbelief. Note too, however, that mankind is totally depraved, lost because of Adam’s sin, not because of man’s rejection of biblical truth (Cf. Rom. 3:10; 3:23; 5:12; 6:23) ).

Through the ages, this question of infant salvation has been emotionally debated. The persistence of this debate has been aided by the fact that the writers of Scripture did not explicitly comment on this subject. Having reviewed many pertinent avenues of reason, we can safely say that the salvation of infants can be regarded as at least an uncontradicted hope. It is my conviction, however, that although infant salvation is not taught explicitly, based upon the justice and character of God, infant salvation is an implicit certainty.

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Write back, I put a lot of effort into this!!

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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Write back, I put a lot of effort into this!!

Sorry, disciplelife, but your effort falls on deaf ears (or blind eyes with this medium)! The cold, cruel logic of predeterminism leaves little room for understanding the "compassionate heart of God". I applaud your convictions but most folks posting on these theology threads have their minds made up, so to speak.

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ORIGINAL: disciplelife

Nothing for the rest?

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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Write back, I put a lot of effort into this!!

Sorry, disciplelife, but your effort falls on deaf ears (or blind eyes with this medium)! The cold, cruel logic of predeterminism leaves little room for understanding the "compassionate heart of God". I applaud your convictions but most folks posting on these theology threads have their minds made up, so to speak.

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ORIGINAL: disciplelife

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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Write back, I put a lot of effort into this!!

Sorry, disciplelife, but your effort falls on deaf ears (or blind eyes with this medium)! The cold, cruel logic of predeterminism leaves little room for understanding the "compassionate heart of God". I applaud your convictions but most folks posting on these theology threads have their minds made up, so to speak.

Thank you,

I wondered why the attack was short-lived. It seems as though there may have been too much information to process, like stuffing ten pounds of logic into a five pound mind. I figured Spurgeon would be an easy mark, since he can't defend himself! I am sure it's been a tough pill to swallow, but I would never try to jam my opinion down someone's throat like I have seen here. Tough crowd, self-righteous, to say the least, but manageable. And the failed attempt to dismantle by way of the sentence-by-sentence thing, what is that?!? And then skip over the parts that they can't explain or intimidate away? Weak, but highly entertaining!

disciplelife

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Actually Jesus prayed that the Father's will WOULD be done on earth as it is in heaven. That means Jesus must have been confused about Calvinism , since this doctrine directly contradicts the Lord's prayer.
Calvinism claims every event is by God's meticulous intervention yet Jesus prayed that God's will shall be done on earth as it is in heaven, clearly stating it as a future event.
Is Augustine correct or Jesus?


The above assumes God's will is in question and or may or may not be done...

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ORIGINAL: steve7150

First of all it's Jesus making this prayer, it's Jesus contrasting God's will on earth from his will in heaven and it's not assuming anything.
It's a prayer acknowledging and thanking God that his will is going to be done on earth as it is now being done in heaven.
There are no assumptions of any kind other then God's will on earth has not yet happened as spoken out of the mouth of Jesus.

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First of all it's Jesus making this prayer, it's Jesus contrasting God's will on earth from his will in heaven and it's not assuming anything.
It's a prayer acknowledging and thanking God that his will is going to be done on earth as it is now being done in heaven.
There are no assumptions of any kind other then God's will on earth has not yet happened as spoken out of the mouth of Jesus.


What God has decreed will happen at the time and place He decreed... The fact it's hasn't happened yet is really pointless since it will happen and man cannot stop it..

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Far from pointless it is in fact the point that this prayer acknowledges God's will is coming but is not yet.
For example it's God's will that none should perish yet many have and many still perish.

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ORIGINAL: steve7150

Far from pointless it is in fact the point that this prayer acknowledges God's will is coming but is not yet.
For example it's God's will that none should perish yet many have and many still perish.

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Yes, because God didn't decree all should be saved...

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So you're saying God does not decree what He wants?

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Yes, because God didn't decree all should be saved...

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ORIGINAL: drmark

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Yes, because God didn't decree all should be saved...

That's not what 2 Peter 3:9b states: "The Lord is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." So you're saying God does not decree what He wants? Nice contradiction of sovereignty, John!

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ORIGINAL: steve7150



Paul clearly states that God wants everyone to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth.

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Paul clearly states that God wants everyone to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth.

Ok... Here God clearly states He created the wicked for a purpose..

Proverbs 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

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ORIGINAL: steve7150



OK but making the wicked for the day of evil does not mean they can not be ultimately saved.

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It is God's will that everyone should be saved thus anyone who gets offended by this suggestion is at variance with God's stated will.

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OK but making the wicked for the day of evil does not mean they can not be ultimately saved.

You sure? What is the day of evil?

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ORIGINAL: disciplelife

Although a tough theological issue, it is clear, an infant child would receive automatic passage to heaven by the mere fact of their lack of knowledge.

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May your kingdom come and your will be done."

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What God has decreed will happen at the time and place He decreed... The fact it's hasn't happened yet is really pointless since it will happen and man cannot stop it..

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Does the "b" after the verse number mean something? Your personal version?

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ORIGINAL: steve7150


Judgment day , and what is judgment ? You think God can only dish out retribution.
Do you think God is bigger then just retribution?

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What did John call God, what are some of God's attributes?
What does God desire? Is God's desire something he will bring to pass or is it just wishing upon a star?