RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/23/2008 10:53:13 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
You for some reason have never experience the lost of a child when they are young. For you would again change your way of thinking very quickly.
So our beliefs about God should be based on our experiences?
Incidentally, I know of at least one instance where this was not the case. One of the Profs. at my former school had lost a child while it was being born (or shortly after it was born, I can't remember the exact timing), and he still believed that babies did not automatically go to heaven.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/23/2008 12:17:09 PM
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drmark
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quote:
For you would again change your way of thinking very quickly. I seriously doubt some Calvinists will change their way of thinking until they see how many Arminians are in Heaven with them! 
quote:
and he still believed that babies did not automatically go to heaven. This use of the word "automatic" is very tricky in this context. Automatic means having the capability of independent action. There is nothing independent about the unmerited gracious favor of a Loving, Sovereign God. We are all totally dependent on the "automatic grace" of God. The issue is how it is appropriated by unaccountable infants.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/23/2008 1:00:08 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
This use of the word "automatic" is very tricky in this context.
Then allow me to put it this way - he does not believe his child went to heaven, nor does he believe any child who has not professed faith in Christ will go to heaven.
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I seriously doubt some Calvinists will change their way of thinking until they see how many Arminians are in Heaven with them!
Anyone who believes that one's eternal destiny is based on a view concerning predestination is... Well, to put it nicely, not someone I would enjoy spending time with.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/23/2008 1:34:10 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
And so what is it his divine purpose or will you seem to be hook on?
The one mentioned in the bible... According to His will and purpose... His will, that is done in heaven and on earth... Or do you think that life is a just a game of chance and whatever can happen?
No answer for why God chose one over another and the fact that the point is made that it had nothing to do with the actions of either party? Good or bad...
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Isn't it simple as this he wants to have a relationship to what he has created.
The above implies that God doesn't always get what He wants... And no, it's not that simple...
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For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that who so ever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
That doesn't leave much room for babies and others who are said to not have the ability to profess does it?
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Again I don't think that David was in wrong state of his mind when he. Got up and went and clean up after his son died from the relationship of Bathsheba. He said while the child was here in this present world, that he was trying to convience God to change his mind about it. Having the child die because of David's actions.
When that didn't work. He by his faith in God, said "that he would eventually go to where his son is".
Yes, he would follow his son in death... Even if you believe it's heaven David is referring he would have faith that is his son is in heaven because of the covenant promise of salvation, not because he believed babies or infants are granted automatic salvation.
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Case in point I notice that those who take this line of thought believe their god has a whip at all times and if you get out of line. Guess you are in for one of the greatest beating ever. But one more time God says not once but numerious of times, that he is a merciful God.
One should rejoice in being chastised by God, since that is far from being on the receiving end of His wrath...
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You for some reason have never experience the lost of a child when they are young. For you would again change your way of thinking very quickly.
No I wouldn't... Just like the fact that I have really nice aunt who denies God and I don't question the fact they she will not be in heaven even though she seems to be the nicest person on the planet... I am not governed by my emotions or what I see to have me deny that she will perish and God is still just...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/23/2008 1:39:47 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
This use of the word "automatic" is very tricky in this context. Automatic means having the capability of independent action. There is nothing independent about the unmerited gracious favor of a Loving, Sovereign God. We are all totally dependent on the "automatic grace" of God. The issue is how it is appropriated by unaccountable infants.
The words has various meanings... I believe the one that applies here is, occurring independently of volition
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/23/2008 10:12:00 PM
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MrFribbles
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I gather he's not a Professor of Theology.
You gather incorrectly.
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By what means could any unaccountable infant "profess faith in Christ"?
By what means can we call God unjust?
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What does "faith" mean to us in this theological context? What does the word "Christ" mean? Does this professor truly believe that every Christian knows the historical and linguistic derivation of "the Annointed One" at the moment of salvation? Amazing!
Dr. Mark, if you're going to nitpick over every little detail in my posts, and ask me to define every phrase to inscrutable detail, I won't play. Either you knew what I meant and are being obtuse, or we come from such vastly different backgrounds in linguistic experience that genuine communication will be a nigh impossibility.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/24/2008 9:16:55 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Either you knew what I meant and are being obtuse, or we come from such vastly different backgrounds in linguistic experience that genuine communication will be a nigh impossibility. No, we come from such vastly different doctrinal backgrounds in theological experience that genuine and empthetic communication is a nigh impossibility. Maybe we can try again another time, MrFribbles. May God bless you (and you should take that literally!).
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/24/2008 11:15:16 AM
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mcleod
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So SoveriegnIsHe and Mr Fribbles One question for you and you think about this seriously. What bases do you have that God is going to chose you to spend eternity with him? Remember I put the word chose in there for a reason. Did he say with a clear voice, I have choosen you today to be with me in eternity?
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/24/2008 12:28:43 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
So SoveriegnIsHe and Mr Fribbles One question for you and you think about this seriously. What bases do you have that God is going to chose you to spend eternity with him? Remember I put the word chose in there for a reason. Did he say with a clear voice, I have choosen you today to be with me in eternity?
Whatever ones He so chooses... The choice will not be due to something about the person in the sense of one being more worthy than another... The only thing mankind if worthy of is God's wrath... Whomever He so chooses to save is based on His desire to show mercy, or not... The fact He doesn't save all doesn't make Him unjust...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/24/2008 1:43:57 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
What bases do you have that God is going to chose you to spend eternity with him?
He already has chosen me.
And it was through no merit of my own. It was for His glory, to make His name famous throughout the earth (not that I do that by myself, but as the Church).
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/26/2008 9:01:50 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
The one mentioned in the bible... According to His will and purpose... His will, that is done in heaven and on earth... Or do you think that life is a just a game of chance and whatever can happen?
Actually Jesus prayed that the Father's will WOULD be done on earth as it is in heaven. That means Jesus must have been confused about Calvinism , since this doctrine directly contradicts the Lord's prayer.
Calvinism claims every event is by God's meticulous intervention yet Jesus prayed that God's will shall be done on earth as it is in heaven, clearly stating it as a future event.
Is Augustine correct or Jesus?
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/26/2008 10:48:25 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
quote:
Case in point I notice that those who take this line of thought believe their god has a whip at all times and if you get out of line. Guess you are in for one of the greatest beating ever. But one more time God says not once but numerious of times, that he is a merciful God.
One should rejoice in being chastised by God, since that is far from being on the receiving end of His wrath...
But Jesus gives the picture of the Father with arms open wide. Notice in the story of the lost son Jesus said: "When he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed."
So again you picture your god with a whip. Jesus says not just in this story but many more times. That the Father has compassion on people who change their walk on their jounery in life.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/26/2008 10:49:42 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Calvinism claims every event is by God's meticulous intervention
I'm pretty sure that's called hyper-Calvinism. There are plenty of Calvinists I've met who believe the main thing that God predestines to happen in salvation, and a lot of the rest of our lives is left up to us.
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Actually Jesus prayed that the Father's will WOULD be done on earth as it is in heaven. That means Jesus must have been confused about Calvinism , since this doctrine directly contradicts the Lord's prayer.
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yet Jesus prayed that God's will shall be done on earth as it is in heaven, clearly stating it as a future event.
This is why it helps to know ancient Greek. ; )
The verbs here are in the aorist tense, and take on an imperative mood. This is something of an odd combination since the aorist is mostly associate with describing past events, but that's in the indicative mood. In other moods (except the participle forms), it really carries no time aspect at all. The aorist aspect of the verb, then, should be taken as describing the event as a whole, not paying much attention to the specific internal workings.
Additionally, the imperative, often used as a command of prohibition, should here be taken as a request. Jesus is not commanding the Father, "Your kingdom MUST come, your will MUST be done," but rather making a request of Him, "May your kingdom come and your will be done." Some may look at that and say, "Well, if He is only asking the Father, then it must still be in the realm of possibility, thus disproving predestination!" I would disagree, unless you want to argue that it is possible that Christ will never return and God's kingdom won't be established.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/26/2008 10:51:32 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
So again you picture your god with a whip. Jesus says not just in this story but many more times. That the Father has compassion on people who change their walk on their jounery in life.
He absolutely does. But once they have made that change, and are walking with God, He doesn't want to lose them. Consider Hebrews 12:6. A truly loving parent does not let their children get away with anything, do they?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/26/2008 12:28:49 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
This is why it helps to know ancient Greek. ; )
The verbs here are in the aorist tense, and take on an imperative mood.
Aorist tense or not Jesus is contrasting conditions on earth with heaven "as it is in heaven" , highlighting the difference between the two.
And BTW Calvin was a hyper-calvinist , the later variations are speculative with a goal to make it more palatable.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/26/2008 1:16:33 PM
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DaveW
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Thereshould be a discussion (and sorely lacking here) of how Romans 11 ties into this.
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
Rom 11:22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
While this discussion is about the relationship of the redeemed Gentile community and Israel, the implication is that the only way to be cut from the wild tree (not saved) and be grafted into the cultivated olive tree (salvation) is by your faith.
Children (especially infants) do not know how to excercise faith like that. Unless you are born Jewish, you are born on the wrong tree.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/26/2008 2:33:00 PM
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Lapidoth
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I haven't read the posts.
I went to the first to see if someone was distrought,
but only saw the question, "why?"
So, I don't know the purpose of this thread.
But, it does bring out the typical arguments.
For me it's settled as was shown by David in one Post.
The child can't come to me, but I can go to him.
Romans 7 sums up the subject nicely for me.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/26/2008 4:06:38 PM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
Aorist tense or not Jesus is contrasting conditions on earth with heaven "as it is in heaven" , highlighting the difference between the two.
As much as I would like to continue this discussion, it really isn't suited for this thread.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/26/2008 4:56:46 PM
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disciplelife
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Indeed we are all born sinners. A baby, an infant or a toddler has no knowledge of what it takes to receive salvation. They have yet to be offered salvation for their sins, hence they have not had the opportunity to accept or refuse the gift of grace offered by God. An innocent(?) child does not even know they are a sinner. They have no concept of conviction of the heart by the Holy Spirit. Although a tough theological issue, it is clear, an infant child would receive automatic passage to heaven by the mere fact of their lack of knowledge. Jesus speaks of the humility of a child and the angels that guard them. Of course, an older child becomes increasingly aware of sin through adolescence and becomes subject to the same Commandments and Laws as an adult.
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But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (James 1:22)
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/26/2008 5:38:19 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
For me it's settled as was shown by David in one Post.
The child can't come to me, but I can go to him.
That may account for children of anointed Jewish kings but doesn't give much hope for mankind in general... I am sure Pharaoh was quite sure he'd go to his son as well...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/26/2008 5:39:22 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
quote:
The one mentioned in the bible... According to His will and purpose... His will, that is done in heaven and on earth... Or do you think that life is a just a game of chance and whatever can happen?
Actually Jesus prayed that the Father's will WOULD be done on earth as it is in heaven. That means Jesus must have been confused about Calvinism , since this doctrine directly contradicts the Lord's prayer.
Calvinism claims every event is by God's meticulous intervention yet Jesus prayed that God's will shall be done on earth as it is in heaven, clearly stating it as a future event.
Is Augustine correct or Jesus?
The above assumes God's will is in question and or may or may not be done...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/26/2008 5:44:34 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: disciplelife
Indeed we are all born sinners. A baby, an infant or a toddler has no knowledge of what it takes to receive salvation.
Apart from the spirit who has the knowledge of what it takes to receive salvation?
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They have yet to be offered salvation for their sins, hence they have not had the opportunity to accept or refuse the gift of grace offered by God. An innocent(?) child does not even know they are a sinner.
Where is said they have not been offered salvation for their sins?
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They have no concept of conviction of the heart by the Holy Spirit.
Neither does natural man according to Paul...
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Although a tough theological issue, it is clear, an infant child would receive automatic passage to heaven by the mere fact of their lack of knowledge. Jesus speaks of the humility of a child and the angels that guard them. Of course, an older child becomes increasingly aware of sin through adolescence and becomes subject to the same Commandments and Laws as an adult.
So in other words the best things for any person is to die as early as possible... Certainly dieing as a baby and or infant is much safer than taking a chance and ending up in hell... Since God determines our days I cry foul...
Where is this alternative salvation found?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/26/2008 7:11:15 PM
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disciplelife
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: disciplelife
Indeed we are all born sinners. A baby, an infant or a toddler has no knowledge of what it takes to receive salvation.
Apart from the spirit who has the knowledge of what it takes to receive salvation?
quote:
They have yet to be offered salvation for their sins, hence they have not had the opportunity to accept or refuse the gift of grace offered by God. An innocent(?) child does not even know they are a sinner.
Where is said they have not been offered salvation for their sins?
quote:
They have no concept of conviction of the heart by the Holy Spirit.
Neither does natural man according to Paul...
quote:
Although a tough theological issue, it is clear, an infant child would receive automatic passage to heaven by the mere fact of their lack of knowledge. Jesus speaks of the humility of a child and the angels that guard them. Of course, an older child becomes increasingly aware of sin through adolescence and becomes subject to the same Commandments and Laws as an adult.
So in other words the best things for any person is to die as early as possible... Certainly dieing as a baby and or infant is much safer than taking a chance and ending up in hell... Since God determines our days I cry foul...
Where is this alternative salvation found?
quote:
Indeed we are all born sinners. A baby, an infant or a toddler has no knowledge of what it takes to receive salvation. They have yet to be offered salvation for their sins, hence they have not had the opportunity to accept or refuse the gift of grace offered by God. An innocent(?) child does not even know they are a sinner. They have no concept of conviction of the heart by the Holy Spirit. Although a tough theological issue, it is clear, an infant child would receive automatic passage to heaven by the mere fact of their lack of knowledge. Jesus speaks of the humility of a child and the angels that guard them. Of course, an older child becomes increasingly aware of sin through adolescence and becomes subject to the same Commandments and Laws as an adult.
Argumentative little cuss, eh?
Knowledge is received from God, by way of the Holy Spirit when the mind and heart are ready to receive it... would a baby's mind have that capacity?
Where is it said that they have been offered salvation? again... you figure an infant has that capacity?
God draws us to Himself when we are ready, not the other way around. Not sure? Look it up!
You would certainly be justified to cry foul, if you believe there is even an outside chance you could end up in Hell. I mentioned no alternative salvation, as the only salvation is found at the foot of the Cross.
Spiritual rebirth is necessary for all sinners to find their way to Heaven, and that is because of the knowledge of sin, a knowledge given to us by God, through the Holy Spirit (I think I may have already said that).
According to your scenario, there will be no children in Heaven, a sad thought indeed.
Maybe it's time to put this to rest!
Jesus says in John 9:41 to those who were offended at his teaching and asked if he thought they were blind-he said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains." In other words, if a person lacks the natural capacity to see the revelation of God's will or God's glory then that person's sin would not remain - God would not bring the person into final judgment for not believing what he had no natural capacity to see. The other text is Romans 1:20 where Paul is dealing with persons who have not heard the gospel and have no access to it, but who do have access to the revelation of God's glory in nature:
Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
In other words: if a person did not have access to the revelation of God's glory - did not have the natural capacity to see it and understand it, then Paul implies they would have an excuse at the judgment. The point for us is that even though we human beings are under the penalty of everlasting judgment and death because of the fall of our race into sin and the sinful nature that we all have, nevertheless God only executes this judgment on those who have the natural capacity to see his glory and understand his will, and refuse to embrace it as their treasure. Infants, I believe, do not yet have that capacity; and therefore, in God's inscrutable way, he brings them under the forgiving blood of his Son. God in his justice will find a way to absolve infants who die of their depravity. It will surely be through Christ. But beyond that we would be guessing. It seems to me that the most natural guess would be that babies will grow up in the kingdom (either immediately, or over time) and will by God's grace come to faith so that their justification is by faith alone just like ours.
It is important to emphasize that God is not saving infants because they are innocent. They are not innocent, but guilty. He is saving them because, although they are sinful, in his mercy he desires that compassion be exercised upon those who are sinful and yet lack the capacity to grasp the truth revealed about Him in nature and to the human heart... childish innocence. It should also be emphasized that the salvation of all who die in infancy is not inconsistent with unconditional election (the view that God chooses whom to save of His own will, apart from anything in the individual).
Also consider the following points:
1. The Lord Jesus Christ died for all of Adam's race (for all mankind), including every infant that has ever been born.
2. A person is condemned for rejecting Jesus Christ and for refusing to believe in Him: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." (John 3:18). An infant is not capable of rejecting Jesus Christ. An infant is incapable of committing the sin mentioned in John 16:9.
3. Those who go to hell in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 are those who have deliberately disobeyed the gospel by refusing to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Infants have not willfully disobeyed the gospel. Note: The heathen, who are not under the hearing of the gospel, are condemned for rejecting the lesser revelation that God has given to them (Rom. 1:20-21, etc.). But an infant would also be incapable of rejecting this lesser revelation.
4. Revelation 20:11-15 indicates that all of the unsaved are resurrected to appear before the Great White Throne, and twice it is stressed that each will be judged according to their works. It is doubtful that young infants are included in this evaluation. What evil works has a 6 month old baby committed?
5. Consider the compassionate heart of God for those who are lost: "who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4--this is God's desire). "...not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Pet. 3:9). "In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost" (Matt. 18:14). "...I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked..." (Ezekiel 33:11). While these verses do not refer specifically to infants, they do teach us that the loving and merciful heart of our God desires the salvation of all men.
6. We know that the Lord Jesus had a tender and compassionate heart for the little children and was much displeased when His disciples were hindering them from coming to Him (Mark 10:13-14). We are sure that our Saviour has this same kind of compassion, not only for children, but for young infants also.
7. King David had a child by Bathsheba which died in infancy. David's words are significant: "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought, 'Who knows? The LORD may be gracious to me and let the child live.' But now that he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me." (2 Samuel 12:22-23). The clear sense of this passage is that David believed that he would be reunited with his child in the next life. He knew the baby, having died, could not come back to this life, but he believed that he would go to him. While we can't be dogmatic that such a passage teaches infant salvation, yet it does seem to point in that direction.
The Reverend Charles H. Spurgeon nails this on the head in a sermon from 1861, entitled "Infant Salvation". As Spurgeon pointed out, it is not that God chooses someone to salvation because they are going to die in infancy. Rather, He has ordained that only those who have been chosen for salvation will be allowed to die in infancy. God's justice in condemnation will be most clearly seen by allowing those who will not be saved to demonstrate their inherent sinfulness through willful, knowing transgression. (John 3:18 says ".......whoever does not believe......". The verb is perfect active indicative. An infant has not actively expressed unbelief. Note too, however, that mankind is totally depraved, lost because of Adam’s sin, not because of man’s rejection of biblical truth (Cf. Rom. 3:10; 3:23; 5:12; 6:23) ).
Through the ages, this question of infant salvation has been emotionally debated. The persistence of this debate has been aided by the fact that the writers of Scripture did not explicitly comment on this subject. Having reviewed many pertinent avenues of reason, we can safely say that the salvation of infants can be regarded as at least an uncontradicted hope. It is my conviction, however, that although infant salvation is not taught explicitly, based upon the justice and character of God, infant salvation is an implicit certainty.
< Message edited by disciplelife -- 9/26/2008 9:26:21 PM >
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But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. (James 1:22)
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/26/2008 11:29:06 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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