RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?help me
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/10/2008 11:27:20 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
your question doesn't make sense to me. it has nothing to do with it.
Strange comment given you responded to it in post 297...
Yes it does... You say children are innocent... I am asking why God treated them like everyone else regarding the flood and Jericho...
quote:
I have noticed that on the 12 pages of this thread you have been very consistent as the voice of infant d**nation......... why is that?
I have been very consistent that salvation for EVERYONE is in God's hands, not just babies or infants... I don't declare them all saved, or all hell bound... Like the rest of mankind, they are subject to God's choice according to His will and purpose...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/10/2008 11:52:59 PM
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makarizo
Posts: 3000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
What, in the context of that quote, makes you think Jesus is talking about a person's eternal destination?
"such is the kingdom of heaven" & "their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father " (at what age do those angels stop looking?)
quote:
You're painting me unfairly.
I confess, I was kind of button pushing.......I just don't know where to go with a notion of unsaved baby. .... in fact the belief that Jesus in essence tells us to become like an unsaved child just doesn't make sense - if indeed there is no hope of salvation for a child.
quote:
If babies go to heaven, why are Christians so upset about abortion?
it is evidence that satan is at work in our society......it is murder, it is unjust, it is a Doctor playing god, it might be placing a millstone around one's neck, it is taking the natural, and replacing it with the unnatural, it is NOT God's will, it is morbid.
Joh 11:35 Jesus wept.
pharoah was a baby killer, herod was a baby killer, jechoniah was a baby killer.
these men are not heros.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/10/2008 11:59:24 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
I confess, I was kind of button pushing.......I just don't know where to go with a notion of unsaved baby. .... in fact the belief that Jesus in essence tells us to become like an unsaved child just doesn't make sense - if indeed there is no hope of salvation for a child.
Who said there is no hope for salvation for a child?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/11/2008 12:09:44 AM
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makarizo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I don't declare them all saved, or all hell bound... Like the rest of mankind, they are subject to God's choice according to His will and purpose...
I agree with this!!!!!
I personally believe that the bible teaches us that salvation is for children, but ultimately I believe it is God's Sovereign right to judge according to His will.
I know that as high as the heavens are above the Earth so are His ways higher than mine.
and that His thoughts are not my thoughts. (Is 55)
there is something very special (in God's eyes) about a child, special instructions, special warnings about them, and special blessings.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/11/2008 12:12:13 AM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: makarizo
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I don't declare them all saved, or all hell bound... Like the rest of mankind, they are subject to God's choice according to His will and purpose...
I agree with this!!!!!
I personally believe that the bible teaches us that salvation is for children, but ultimately I believe it is God's Sovereign right to judge according to His will.
I know that as high as the heavens are above the Earth so are His ways higher than mine.
and that His thoughts are not my thoughts. (Is 55)
there is something very special (in God's eyes) about a child, special instructions, special warnings about them, and special blessings.
Yes, about HIS children...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/11/2008 1:04:48 PM
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Focusing
Posts: 6014
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quote:
Yes, about HIS children...
Matt 18:2-3 And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."
It appears to me that He was referring to children.
_____________________________
Instead of a gem, or even a flower, we should cast the gift of a loving thought into the heart of a friend. That would be giving as the angels give.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/11/2008 1:17:56 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
quote:
Yes, about HIS children...
Matt 18:2-3 And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."
It appears to me that He was referring to children.
It's a matter of dependency... Children are dependent for everything and willing to accept from those who provide what is needed... Further.... In those times children were looked upon as the lowliest of the lowly, and Jesus here is trying to use children as an example to get the point across to His disciples of the very way He approach things, making Himself the lowest of lowly first by being born a human being and identifying with sin, and later dying for sinners. He used he is using a simile; he calls upon adult disciples to become like children.
Children are not innocent...
Continue down the chapter in Matthew 18... Verse 6....
Matthew 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
Though it's quite clear it's a issue to cause someone to sin, that doesn't remove the fact that one is as well personally responsible.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/11/2008 1:28:10 PM
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Focusing
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quote:
Children are not innocent...
Really? I find that comment quite incredulous! It can be taken soooooooooo many different ways ...
I know many children who are innocent.
I'm curious, how are you defining the word "innocent"?
_____________________________
Instead of a gem, or even a flower, we should cast the gift of a loving thought into the heart of a friend. That would be giving as the angels give.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/11/2008 2:10:28 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
Really? I find that comment quite incredulous! It can be taken soooooooooo many different ways ...
Given the context of the thread I don't really think so...
quote:
I know many children who are innocent.
Of what?
quote:
I'm curious, how are you defining the word "innocent"?
From the eternal since that mankind is sinful and falls short of the glory of God... There is none good, not one...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/11/2008 2:16:43 PM
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Focusing
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Hmmm ... clearly we have quite differing views on the subject.
Given the context of the thread? No, I believe what God has revealed to me, not what man has debated here in these threads. Thanks for the discussion. But no thanks.
To respond directly to the question posed in the OP: Yes, I do truly believe with all my heart that if an infant or baby dies, he will go to heaven.
_____________________________
Instead of a gem, or even a flower, we should cast the gift of a loving thought into the heart of a friend. That would be giving as the angels give.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/11/2008 2:39:19 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Focusing
Hmmm ... clearly we have quite differing views on the subject.
Yup...
quote:
Given the context of the thread?
Yes, the context of the thread, what we are talking about... I believe many times the subject matter speaks to the context of things... Correct?
quote:
No, I believe what God has revealed to me, not what man has debated here in these threads.
So I shouldn't believe what you are posting??? Quite the dilemma
quote:
Thanks for the discussion. But no thanks.
What discussion? In fact given your statement about what is to be believe in these threads I am perplexed why you are here....
quote:
To respond directly to the question posed in the OP: Yes, I do truly believe with all my heart that if an infant or baby dies, he will go to heaven.
Why not everyone? Why does a infant or baby deserve salvation over someone's nice Aunt Mary?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/11/2008 2:54:45 PM
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Focusing
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I wouldn't mind continuing a conversation with the OP, but he seems to have left the discussion.
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Instead of a gem, or even a flower, we should cast the gift of a loving thought into the heart of a friend. That would be giving as the angels give.
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[Deleted] - 9/11/2008 2:56:26 PM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/11/2008 3:03:15 PM
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john_mark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Continue down the chapter in Matthew 18... Verse 6....
Matthew 18:6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
Though it's quite clear it's a issue to cause someone to sin, that doesn't remove the fact that one is as well personally responsible.
could you elaborate on this i am missing your thought. these children appear to be saved since they believe in Jesus, so i am missing the connection to your argument. this verse seems to single out the children as different as opposed to causing an adult believer to sin
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/11/2008 4:07:56 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
could you elaborate on this i am missing your thought. these children appear to be saved since they believe in Jesus, so i am missing the connection to your argument.
The verse speaks to children having the ability to sin...
quote:
this verse seems to single out the children as different as opposed to causing an adult believer to sin
If one receives like a child and someone causes that person to sin how they are subject to verse 6... More than once believers are referred to as children...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/12/2008 2:36:19 AM
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abraxas
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Just one little comment. It seems that there are two ways to look at this. Some focus on the question of whether a baby "deserves" salvation--i.e. an automatic entry into heaven, while others focus on the question of whether a baby "deserves" damnation.
The more clear-cut the heaven-hell dichotomy is, the more difficult the OP question is.
Someone who doesn't see why a baby should get a special free pass to paradise will need to explain why or how a baby could be condemned by a loving God to everlasting torture. Someone who can't imagine God condemning a baby to everlasting torture will need to explain why babies should get a free pass when those of us unfortunate enough to survive infancy don't.
With a strict, either-or heaven/hell dichotomy, there won't be any resolution to this. I hope this freed up some valuable time for some of you! 
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/12/2008 8:58:39 AM
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drmark
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quote:
It appears to me that He was referring to children. It's a long thread, Focusing, but starting with my post #27, I laid out the argument that the original text uses a prepositional phrase that indicates it is the humble character of a child that determines eternal destination, not merely chronological age. Thus, the mentally incompetent and other physical incapacities may also represent childlike humility.
quote:
Someone who doesn't see why a baby should get a special free pass to paradise will need to explain why or how a baby could be condemned by a loving God to everlasting torture. Someone who can't imagine God condemning a baby to everlasting torture will need to explain why babies should get a free pass when those of us unfortunate enough to survive infancy don't. Sorry, abraxas, but no one is capable of fully "explaining" God's actions! There is Scriptural support for both positions. The preponderance lies on the side of efficacious grace for the unaccountable. Those who claim otherwise are protecting human-derived doctrines of Sovereignty over the God-derived doctrine of Love!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/12/2008 9:33:49 AM
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abraxas
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explain, justify, support, present an apology for, reconcile....
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[Deleted] - 9/12/2008 10:02:52 AM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/12/2008 10:07:32 AM
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MrFribbles
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quote:
The preponderance lies on the side of efficacious grace for the unaccountable. Those who claim otherwise are protecting human-derived doctrines of Sovereignty over the God-derived doctrine of Love!
How so? I've asked, many times, for Scripture to support salvation for the unaccountable, and all I've gotten is a vague passage from the life of David. If your position has preponderance, show me.
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You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/12/2008 11:06:06 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
Someone who can't imagine God condemning a baby to everlasting torture will need to explain why babies should get a free pass when those of us unfortunate enough to survive infancy don't.
I like the way you have set that up, abraxes.
To the above, Jesus already explains it. He says to the laborers who worked a full day and get paid the same as the one who arrives in the 11th hour to, more or less, get over it. God's grace is God's grace and it extends to those who have been working all day or who just walked in off the street.
A follow up question though is this: Why do you think it is "unfortunate" to survive infancy? This, I think, makes the idea of heaven/hell the be-all-end-all of life with God, which I would disagree with. The fortunate thing for us who "survive infancy" is we get to experience life with God in the present and have a hand in building for his kingdom of tomorrow. What greater honor can there be than that?
peace.
Hi emerging, well I guess we can say that about the survivors who go on to be saved, but for those who survive only to end up with the wrong theology, and damned to hell forever, it's very unfortunate.
I've read a few of your posts so I don't think the above is how you understand things yourself, but I think it fits how things are commonly viewed. (At least here at this site)
I do agree with you--Life, "this thing, whatever it is" is pretty amazing to experience. No walk in the park, but then sometimes, that's exactly what it is!
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[Deleted] - 9/12/2008 11:10:53 AM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/12/2008 11:54:09 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I've read a few of your posts so I don't think the above is how you understand things yourself, but I think it fits how things are commonly viewed. (At least here at this site) Although the "God is Sovereign" crowd appears more vocal on these Theology threads, I am far from convinced that it's the "commonly held view" compared to the "God is Love" crowd. We (the latter) usually show a little more love and a little less sovereignty and move on.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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[Deleted] - 9/12/2008 1:01:56 PM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/12/2008 6:10:12 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5921
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
]Sorry, abraxas, but no one is capable of fully "explaining" God's actions! There is Scriptural support for both positions. The preponderance lies on the side of efficacious grace for the unaccountable. Those who claim otherwise are protecting human-derived doctrines of Sovereignty over the God-derived doctrine of Love!
The fact that God is sovereign is hardly human derived and if you really considered it you'd realize it is very much part of the foundation regarding your view of this topic... If God isn't sovereign there is no hope of infant salvation. or anyone else for that matter...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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